"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

So far every arc in Super has been light-hearted, really. The only exception is the Future Trunks arc, which actually had the darkest ending out of any arc in the franchise, since for the first time the Dragon Balls couldn't solve everything away. I would be positively surprised if the Moro arc ended in a dark or grim way, but there are 0 chances of that happening because End of Z shows that everyone is alright and Moro is (supposedly) gone. You're pretty much guaranteed to have light-hearted arcs, at least until the story gets past the End of Z. At that point, the protagonists won't have plot armor anymore.

I agree with this but i did jsut think, they didn't even really try. They have Super Dragon Balls now, they probably could have fixed something if they'd have put in minimal effort, but they handwaved it to doubling up Trunks and Mai in another universe instead.

I can only assume its because they either wanted to wrap it up quickly or they have plans for Trunks involving the Xenoverse plot or some other plot in some way. two Trunks in one timeline will eventually lead to one feeling out of place and looking for a place of his own, perhaps patrolling time, perhaps something else. It feels like a way to keep it open ended more so than a logical, in-universe choice.

I assume the Super Dragon Balls can't affect other timelines, since there are a set of balls for each timeline, which means they can't defy the rules of time (the balls in the Future multiverse were destroyed by Zamasu). Originally I believed that Zamasu and the Future Trunks timeline were brought back by Android 17's wish at the end of the ToP, since he wished to restore ALL universes that were erased by both Zeno (this would include the Future multiverse), but it seems like this was not the case. Not even universes 13-18 were restored, so yeah.

Which is actually sad, I thought 17's wish at the end of the ToP arc would have major/dire ramifications for the future, since the wording was so generic and vague. I remember a lot of people were speculating that the villain of the Broly movie would be an evil saiyan who lived in one of the 6 erased universes, but it turned out to be... well, Broly. Nothing unusual came from that wish after all.

[JewyB]

I agree with this but i did jsut think, they didn't even really try. They have Super Dragon Balls now, they probably could have fixed something if they'd have put in minimal effort, but they handwaved it to doubling up Trunks and Mai in another universe instead.

I can only assume its because they either wanted to wrap it up quickly or they have plans for Trunks involving the Xenoverse plot or some other plot in some way. two Trunks in one timeline will eventually lead to one feeling out of place and looking for a place of his own, perhaps patrolling time, perhaps something else. It feels like a way to keep it open ended more so than a logical, in-universe choice.

I assume the Super Dragon Balls can't affect other timelines, since there are a set of balls for each timeline, which means they can't defy the rules of time (the balls in the Future multiverse were destroyed by Zamasu). Originally I believed that Zamasu and the Future Trunks timeline were brought back by Android 17's wish at the end of the ToP, since he wished to restore ALL universes that were erased by both Zeno (this would include the Future multiverse), but it seems like this was not the case. Not even universes 13-18 were restored, so yeah.

Which is actually sad, I thought 17's wish at the end of the ToP arc would have major ramifications for the future, but oh well. I remember a lot of people were speculating that the villain of the Broly movie would be an evil saiyan who lived in one of the erased universes, but it turned out to be... well, Broly.

Oh i dont mean a straight cut "restore the timeline" wish, but something could have been done, i havent really thought it through but the Super Dragon Balls are enough to restore several multiverses, they could at least be used to give Trunks some form of home or closure if thats what they were after.

And i remember both those theories, but when they were about i treated them the same as msot theories, ie, much better than the story we'll get but not taking away from the future stories. The multiverse thing would be a good set up but DB doesn't do set ups so i wasn't expecting it to be used that way, although it would have been nice. Toriymas style is constantly pushing forwards, so i dont expect it from him, maybe Toei or Toyo, but less so toriyama, and if it did come up later it would have been a "oh neat i can do this" as opposed to "mwahaha my brilliant foreshadowing!".

With Broly though, that was a tough one, there were a lot of theories going around and i wasn't really invested in any, it was a very simple yet complicated tease that left me unable to stick on one possibility.

[ChronoTwigger]

With Moro stripped out of power (again, I think Vegeta will strip out everything from him, even the "magic" aura and hunger, but no direct kill) and Merus definitely gone, again this arc didn't touched continuity - well, Goku get a boost.
They can explain it differently.
So, again, there's no hint or reason they will animate this arc ever.

I don't think anyone will pay for Merus faults. Angels are forbid to break neutrality, and being erased is the consequence, so the cause-effect is already staged. No one forced him to take that choice.
Anyway, having him revived as mortal and join the space patrol could be cute .

I suppose any possible new arc will tap in DB cosmology, but probably on an higher tier, like Zalama comeback or the daishinkan gone mad. There's no logic way to "punish" Beerus if not by simply erasing him or declass him from Hakaishin - that's not a plot inciter. The only way Beerus can be involved in the plot is by having something menace him directly, and others go to the rescue.
OR Whis is in danger by the above reasons.

Whatever, I just hope they doesn't pull off a new monster out of nowhere and finally tap again into the narrative universe.

[Skar]

again this arc didn't touched continuity - well, Goku get a boost.
They can explain it differently.
So, again, there's no hint or reason they will animate this arc ever.

The Moro arc seems to be mostly self contained so it wouldn't affect any future developments from Toriyama. Vegeta learned new techniques which are pretty specific and may not be used again. Goku learned to use Omen at will but that form was Toei's idea so probably isn't taken into consideration by Toriyama. Since the form was included in the manga, it could get Goku ready for when Toriyama has him control MUI after training with Whis again (or maybe the Grand Priest?).

I'm not sure if Toei would skip it though since it could help extend the anime depending on how much material they have to work with. Most anime nowadays are lucky to last two cours but Toei spent that long on the movie retellings. Moro could give them a 15-20 episode arc while they work on writing of the following arc.

[Matches Malone]

I'm not sure if Toei would skip it though since it could help extend the anime depending on how much material they have to work with. Most anime nowadays are lucky to last two cours but Toei spent that long on the movie retellings. Moro could give them a 15-20 episode arc while they work on writing of the following arc.

So far the only "reason" people have given to why it'll be skipped is "we don't like it, so it'll be skipped". There's 0 logical reasons for them to skip this arc. Like you said, they spent 27 episodes on retellings that were already animated, so of course this will be as well. On top of giving them time to work on what's next, they can merchandise the hell out of it. Moro alone has 4-5 "forms" to turn into toys and cards, and that's not counting his henchmen.

[Koitsukai]

They invest in crappy entertainment like SDBH, I seriously doubt they would dismiss a 20-chapter manga arc.

[TobyS]

They invest in crappy entertainment like SDBH, I seriously doubt they would dismiss a 20-chapter manga arc.

Yeah I mean created a new arc from scratch or use a new arc which already has the story written and functionally free story boards for the entire thing.

Unless it was incredibly despised there's 0 reason not to.

I can imaging the start with some BS filler like super did when it first came on, then possibly Broly, then possibly small filler, then Moro, then filler, by then the post Moro manga arc can be adapted too.

There's another movie coming too so an anime arc of that is possible after or before Moro, that's like 2 or 3 years of anime nice and easy.

[Noah]

Man this arc has been hot garbage ever since Goku arrived at the scene with his shitty Ultra Instinct.

Moro doesn't even use 90% of his abilities anymore and he's reduced to a much lamer Cell RipOff. The idea behind this arc was how magic and haxx overcome pure strength and how need more than just big arms to win a battle, it's shown with how Moro wipe the floor with Goku and Vegeta despite being weaker than them.

Toyotaro had to recton Moro's magic because writing more than two dudes punching each other seems to be beyond his abilities. I am still wondering why UI is even in this arc. Logically Moro could have solo'ed hard with his magic but because this is DBS we must have a PIS at every turn.

UI Should have been saved for his rematch with Beerus which would have worked much better narratively, Moro should have been changed by Buu and the Supreme Kai more

I agree with all that

I was interested by this arc premise: having a villain that uses magic to overcome his enemies instead of raw strength and that eats planets to become more powerful, but after Toyotaro gave up on that and instead made Moro more a like a generic villain that still resorts to brute force to defeat his enemies, I drop it.

There's no hope in this manga, I only enjoy reading summaries now, my time is precious to waste time with such garbage.

So... this is the chapter that broke me. Goku's insanely idiotic speech destroyed any hopes I had of the manga ever being good. This is the moment the entire manga has been building to, his mastery of Ultra Instinct and change from the selfish hero to someone who cares about others... AND ALL THE DEVELOPMENT WAS OFF-SCREEN.
Are you fucking serious, Toyo? This is your stupid masterstroke, and you don't invest any time in it?! Goku's training to reach Omen? Off-screen. Bonding with Meerus? Off-screen. Learning the value of using your strength to help others? Off-fucking-screen!
At this point his dumbass "I just realized I've never fought alone" moment is minor by comparison. Of course you've never fought alone you dipshit, most of your victories have been with the help of your friends.

But oddly enough, giving up on the manga is making me enjoy it more. Now I see it as a fan work with mediocre writing but great artwork and half-decent fight scenes. This is another Dragon Ball Multiverse to me. I thought the transformation was cool, and Toyo finally pulled off a good fight scene.

What took you so long?

I thought most people have already done that past the Future Trunks arc. I mean seriously there are moments in the manga that are better than the anime: no bullsh*t regarding Trunks battle power, a less dragged tournament in the Universe survival arc, but that's it. Everything falls flat in comparison to the animated series.

There's another movie coming too...

What? Where did you read that?

[TobyS]

Hasn't one more movie been public knowledge for a while now. I thought it was the only thing that was confirmed?

Also if your time is too precious too read Super is it hopefully going to be too precious to come on here and bitch about super?

Constructive criticism is good but unlike the fanworks thread the creators aren't gonna see it. It's sole remaining function is to kill the buzz of people who are enjoying it.

Not to mention all the fuckin egotistical essentialising people do on here.

It's NEVER “I don't like this anymore, I'm out, enjoy guys! HMU when the next arc starts!”

It's always “THIS IS SHIT NOW! I'M THE SOLE ARBITER OF WHAT IS OR ISN'T GOOD” y'all sound like Dub Cooler.

[Koitsukai]

They invest in crappy entertainment like SDBH, I seriously doubt they would dismiss a 20-chapter manga arc.

Yeah I mean created a new arc from scratch or use a new arc which already has the story written and functionally free story boards for the entire thing.

Unless it was incredibly despised there's 0 reason not to.

I can imaging the start with some BS filler like super did when it first came on, then possibly Broly, then possibly small filler, then Moro, then filler, by then the post Moro manga arc can be adapted too.

There's another movie coming too so an anime arc of that is possible after or before Moro, that's like 2 or 3 years of anime nice and easy.

Not to mention it'd be cheaper for Toei, because they would not have to hire writers to develop Toriyama's plot ploints, just animate a story already written.
I admit to know absolutely nothing about how animation studios work, but I doubt it's free of charge for them to write their own version of the arcs.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I was interested by this arc premise: having a villain that uses magic to overcome his enemies instead of raw strength and that eats planets to become more powerful, but after Toyotaro gave up on that and instead made Moro more a like a generic villain that still resorts to brute force to defeat his enemies, I drop it.

Moro did no such thing as 'give up on' his magical abilities once he became powerful. He uses plenty of magic against Ultra Instinct Omen Goku in Chapter 59, as detailed here:

And it's not right that he doesn't use magic in his fight with Goku, even counting out his attempts at absorption. He starts off by gifting energy to Saganbo, which is that selfsame magic he uses on Namek to empower his followers; then when the fight starts properly, he may use magic to attack Goku from the outset (but it may be an ordinary ki attack, like Nappa and Freeza used); he definitely immobilises Goku with magic; his destructive lightning, which he uses more than once, appears to be magical; his after-image is an illusion (implicitly different from Zanzouken, and also used on Namek; it's magical, just like Dabura's is according to the Daizenshuu); he grips Goku out of the air, just like he does various people on Namek; and then he uses the planet-energy attack to stop Goku in his tracks. And that's all in Chapter 59.

Moro used strength to beat Goku down in Chapter 60, in the end, because Goku forced the issue and turned it into a toe-to-toe strong-off. Which he then lost.

[Alruneia]

Hasn't one more movie been public knowledge for a while now. I thought it was the only thing that was confirmed?

Yes, we do theoretically "know" that another movie is in the early planning stages, we got that information in an interview if I recall correctly. That news is well over a year old now, though, and there haven't been any updates since, so... Not to be a downer, but we really should've heard something by now. If there's no news about it by the time Jump Festa ends, we'll have to consider the possibility that it's stuck in development hell or has been silently cancelled.

[TobyS]

Hasn't one more movie been public knowledge for a while now. I thought it was the only thing that was confirmed?

Yes, we do theoretically "know" that another movie is in the early planning stages, we got that information in an interview if I recall correctly. That news is well over a year old now, though, and there haven't been any updates since, so... Not to be a downer, but we really should've heard something by now. If there's no news about it by the time Jump Festa ends, we'll have to consider the possibility that it's stuck in development hell or has been silently cancelled.

Why, has there been an "announcement-trailer in one year" precedent for every other movie in DB's history or like JP animation generally? Broly performed well, Toriyama doesn't seem to mind making stories as long as he doesn't have to draw a weekly manga...

I think Covids probably a variable but unless DB toys and games have stopped selling entirely I don't think they wont keep making new stuff.

[ChronoTwigger]

Global reply to the argument I've lifted.

I don't think again they will animate the arc and that's mean the arc will be perceived as a filler in the continuity, or a minor chapter.

If Moro was a thing, they could have simply added him as a DLC for any game - Beerus and Zamasu were a thing even before indepths.
Or have him figure in any of the hundred meta-products like collectible cards.
Nothing.
This arc doesn't exist.
Not even doujin circles are doing music or drama.

That doesn't mean this arc is trash, is just plain and repetitive, a kinda "let's play safe" thing that no one can really hate and no one can really love, 'cause is basic DragonBall Z dried out to the bone.

I've told my sentiment in another thread: TOEI probably gave Toyo the permission of continuing Super with some guideline ("Don't touch the continuity!"), waiting for the DragonBall Room to come with something to actually deliver(and probably debating if they should praise kids again breaking continuity or praising seinen by changing style).
Moro arc is too feeble to represent a new worldwide revamp for DBS mixed feelings.
Mind that while a lot of newbies loved Super, many old fan started a worldwide ranting that surely you don't want to repeat - and Moro risk to be that faux-pas again.

So, to resume: no, they are apparently ignoring Moro arc as this arc is not the new "big thing" they hope to deliver in anime format.

[xm0c]

The fact that characters like Moro and Merus haven't been added to Xenoverse or Heroes actually makes me think this arc will be adapted. The video games have always pandered to the anime side of the franchise, so I'm thinking they're waiting for the anime adaption for story reasons just in case the anime and manga differ.

I mean, if Copy-Vegeta, the filler-iest character in Super, can get into Dokkan battle, there's no reason Moro couldn't be added unless there's plans for this arc later down the line.

[batistabus]

1. If Moro was a thing, they could have simply added him as a DLC for any game - Beerus and Zamasu were a thing even before indepths.
Or have him figure in any of the hundred meta-products like collectible cards.
Nothing.

2. Not even doujin circles are doing music or drama.

3. TOEI probably gave Toyo the permission of continuing Super with some guideline ("Don't touch the continuity!"), waiting for the DragonBall Room to come with something to actually deliver(and probably debating if they should praise kids again breaking continuity or praising seinen by changing style).

4. Moro arc is too feeble to represent a new worldwide revamp for DBS mixed feelings.
Mind that while a lot of newbies loved Super, many old fan started a worldwide ranting that surely you don't want to repeat - and Moro risk to be that faux-pas again.

I don't know whether or not this arc will be adapted into anime. I think it probably will be, but I'm not going to take a hard stance. Still, I'd like to challenge a few things you said.

1. I think that's a good argument for a future anime adaptation. If there were no plans to animate this arc, don't you think they'd at least include some of these characters in Heroes? Heroes has almost everything from Dragon Ball ever. Can you really make the argument that this arc is less significant or relevant than Hatchihyack? Toriyama is directly involved in the arc, and outside of Japan, it's a top-performing manga (not that it's doing terrible in Japan, but specifically, it takes spots 4 [Spanish] and 5 [English] on the Mangaplus Shueisha website). It's certainly not nothing, and if there were plans to animate this arc, they'd likely wait for the animation before rolling those characters out in video games and other media.

2. A personal anecdote: I've seen so much fanart of Moro since he absorbed Seven-three. I just thought that was interesting since so many people claim to dislike the design and think the story has gone down hill recently.

3. Toei does not have authority over the Dragon Ball Room. "It seems they coordinate with Toei Animation, who make the TV anime, and “handle editorial supervision, official paperwork… as well as merchandise development. We decide the content of games like the arcade game Super Dragon Ball Heroes or the game series Dragon Ball Xenoverse." I DO think the current arc takes steps to not mess significantly with the continuity, but I think that's due to other reasons, such as a potential future film by Toriyama that is meant to take place after the events of the GPP arc.

4. While I don't necessarily feel this way, many fans seem to perceive this arc as exactly what they have been missing from Super.

---

At the end of the day, even if this arc isn't animated, that doesn't make it illegitimate. The anime and manga have always been separate continuities. You can decide which you'd prefer to revisit over time.

In my view, Dragon Ball is a manga first and foremost. The animated adaptation of the original series was only ever an adaptation. The anime of Super had relatively little involvement from Toriyama compared to the manga, and outside of major plot points, it doesn't quite convey Toriyama's touch. Due to Toriyama's involvement and Toyotaro's role as his "chosen successor", the GPP arc is modern Dragon Ball, and only a Toriyama-scripted film could override that. It would be cool to see this arc animated some day, but I view "merely existing as animation" with as much authority as the video games or Heroes.

[BWri]

Spoiler:

They invest in crappy entertainment like SDBH, I seriously doubt they would dismiss a 20-chapter manga arc.

Yeah I mean created a new arc from scratch or use a new arc which already has the story written and functionally free story boards for the entire thing.

Unless it was incredibly despised there's 0 reason not to.

I can imaging the start with some BS filler like super did when it first came on, then possibly Broly, then possibly small filler, then Moro, then filler, by then the post Moro manga arc can be adapted too.

There's another movie coming too so an anime arc of that is possible after or before Moro, that's like 2 or 3 years of anime nice and easy.

I wouldn't mind some filler to flesh the arc out a bit. I'd like to see how strong every has gotten and how they train, for instance. Filler battles might help with that like the days of Ginyus vs. Z-Fighters. Of course, it would be considered anime canon at this point.

Also, it would be nice to see some of the other universes before the arc gets properly underway.

[MCDaveG]

I actually started to like the arc again, as that talk between Goku and Merus in the training room was great and in-character to Goku...
but when I realized it is foreshadowing and Goku torns the Gi with Galactic Patrol sign instead of eradicating Moro and goes at it again ''I like to fight strong guys, toss him senzu bean or something...''
Even if it is in-character with Goku, it's just kind of you know, overdone? Stopping at Vegeta, who had incredible character arc, not other villain was made into the cast again... Except for Freeza recently, but he hasn't reformed and returns and is kind of what Piccolo was before Raditz landed on earth - rival left in the open. But Cell - killed, no chance to reform, Buu - was actually interesting as he was pure evil and got reincarnated as another being, so he got a second chance but in interesting way...
So nobody has any doubts, that Moro should be destroyed as there is no chance for him to join the villain friend club of DB...
The last panel really made me go ''Oh, Come on!''

[SupremeKai25]

I actually started to like the arc again, as that talk between Goku and Merus in the training room was great and in-character to Goku...
but when I realized it is foreshadowing and Goku torns the Gi with Galactic Patrol sign instead of eradicating Moro and goes at it again ''I like to fight strong guys, toss him senzu bean or something...''
Even if it is in-character with Goku, it's just kind of you know, overdone? Stopping at Vegeta, who had incredible character arc, not other villain was made into the cast again... Except for Freeza recently, but he hasn't reformed and returns and is kind of what Piccolo was before Raditz landed on earth - rival left in the open. But Cell - killed, no chance to reform, Buu - was actually interesting as he was pure evil and got reincarnated as another being, so he got a second chance but in interesting way...
So nobody has any doubts, that Moro should be destroyed as there is no chance for him to join the villain friend club of DB...
The last panel really made me go ''Oh, Come on!''

Actually pretty much all the main villains since King Piccolo have been redeemed or forgiven. Piccolo was redeemed, Vegeta was redeemed, the Androids were redeemed, Majin Buu was redeemed via Uub (and the fat one was redeemed by Mr. Satan)... even Frieza in a way was redeemed/forgiven, at least it's framed like that in the ToP arc. Though at the end he says he plans to return to his evil ways, earlier he was brought up by Roshi as an example of people that Goku bonded with and changed.

So really Cell and Zamasu so far are the only main villains that Goku never redeemed. It's nice to know that there are some people in this show who remain true to their ideals until the very end.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I was interested by this arc premise: having a villain that uses magic to overcome his enemies instead of raw strength and that eats planets to become more powerful, but after Toyotaro gave up on that and instead made Moro more a like a generic villain that still resorts to brute force to defeat his enemies, I drop it.

Moro did no such thing as 'give up on' his magical abilities once he became powerful. He uses plenty of magic against Ultra Instinct Omen Goku in Chapter 59, as detailed here:

And it's not right that he doesn't use magic in his fight with Goku, even counting out his attempts at absorption. He starts off by gifting energy to Saganbo, which is that selfsame magic he uses on Namek to empower his followers; then when the fight starts properly, he may use magic to attack Goku from the outset (but it may be an ordinary ki attack, like Nappa and Freeza used); he definitely immobilises Goku with magic; his destructive lightning, which he uses more than once, appears to be magical; his after-image is an illusion (implicitly different from Zanzouken, and also used on Namek; it's magical, just like Dabura's is according to the Daizenshuu); he grips Goku out of the air, just like he does various people on Namek; and then he uses the planet-energy attack to stop Goku in his tracks. And that's all in Chapter 59.

Moro used strength to beat Goku down in Chapter 60, in the end, because Goku forced the issue and turned it into a toe-to-toe strong-off. Which he then lost.

Pretty much this. And I don't understand the idea that supposedly the premise of this arc was that Moro was a villain who didn't use brute force to overcome his enemies.

Moro's main magic, absorption, has always been aimed at increasing his raw power. Although he started the story as a weaker character than Goku and Vegeta, he initially overcame both using a technique they couldn't handle. Once the Saiyan duo got what they needed to deny the villain's absorption, it was obvious that Moro needed to be at least as strong as they were. And this is how Dragon Ball works, raw power usually always stands out in relation to some hax or special technique (Ultra Instinct's auto dodge ability can be rivaled through strength for example).

And as already shown, Moro continued to use other magical abilities even after becoming a powerhouse. But they have always been used more as a support than as the main thing.