Can Anyone Give Me Some Clarification on Cell?

KillerCory · Post by **KillerCory** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:07 am

You mean the timeline Cell comes from?

No I meant the first timeline he creates when going back into the past a year before Trunks. The second long line you drew.

He exists in that timeline so he should have altered events in that timeline.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Sat May 24, 2008 11:22 am

A while ago, I completed a timeline manifesto in which I've attempted to explain the whole situation with a set of rules established by looking at the scattered pieces of information about Dragonball time-travel found in the mange and anime.

It can be downloaded here. Please read it through and let me know what you think. Any feedback is welcome. I hope it can explain your questions about the timelines from yet another point of view.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:06 pm

KillerCory wrote:
You mean the timeline Cell comes from?
No I meant the first timeline he creates when going back into the past a year before Trunks. The second long line you drew.
He exists in that timeline so he should have altered events in that timeline.

Ah, that's the timeline that the Future Trunks we know (the one we see) is from. In that timeline the Cell that is buried in the ground (that should have emerged from the ground in 767) apparently was never found by Trunks. There are several explanations as to why Trunks never saw him (I think the most likely explanation is that #16 killed him).

Admittedly, it's a little problematic that there's no evidence as to why Cell didn't make a notable appearance - but it's the same as why Buu didn't appear either.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sat May 24, 2008 12:54 pm

Buu? How would they have awoken him? Without the fleet of SSJ2's awaiting them...
Trunks, non-SSJ, and Gohan at lvl 1 (and a relatively weak SSJ1, compared to what we see in the main timeline) wouldn't compensate for what they got out of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan at lvl 2.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sat May 24, 2008 1:17 pm

No I meant the first timeline he creates when going back into the past a year before Trunks. The second long line you drew.

He exists in that timeline so he should have altered events in that timeline.

Ah, yes, the Lazy Cell Theory™ that Desire developed to the timelines more complicated.

Yeah. He just shows up in the past and is then never heard from again. With no real plausible explanation.

but it's the same as why Buu didn't appear either.

Buu's got a million and one obvious reasons he wouldn't appear. The Androids could have killed Babidi without issue. No powerlevel for Dabura to sense so they'd have been viewed as a non-threat.

There's also the lack of any sufficient energy sources left. Most of the Earth's population was dead. Babidi assumed that the half charge Buu got from Gohan was from 'thousands of people' so I dobut the Earth had enough of a population left to revive Buu by that point. Gohan's not going to be much help in that reguard either, and Trunks would be even less help.

So really, in Trunks timeline, there's no reason why Buu should appear when he did in the series timeline. No energy reserves to revive him with and rampaging Androids that could easily get the drop on Babidi.

Vegeta Jr · Post by **Vegeta Jr** » Sat May 24, 2008 1:23 pm

Xyex wrote:
No I meant the first timeline he creates when going back into the past a year before Trunks. The second long line you drew.

He exists in that timeline so he should have altered events in that timeline.
Ah, yes, the Lazy Cell Theory™ that Desire developed to the timelines more complicated. Yeah. He just shows up in the past and is then never heard from again. With no real plausible explanation.

but it's the same as why Buu didn't appear either.
Buu's got a million and one obvious reasons he wouldn't appear. The Androids could have killed Babidi without issue. No powerlevel for Dabura to sense so they'd have been viewed as a non-threat.

There's also the lack of any sufficient energy sources left. Most of the Earth's population was dead. Babidi assumed that the half charge Buu got from Gohan was from 'thousands of people' so I dobut the Earth had enough of a population left to revive Buu by that point. Gohan's not going to be much help in that reguard either, and Trunks would be even less help.

So really, in Trunks timeline, there's no reason why Buu should appear when he did in the series timeline. No energy reserves to revive him with and rampaging Androids that could easily get the drop on Babidi.

Wouldn't Babidi if he was killed by the Androids be way before Trunks is even a teenager.

As Babidi in the anime timeline appears when Trunks is but a child.

That's what I don't get about Shin Budokai Another Road, future Trunks would never have met Babidi or even heard of him as he would have been dead around ten years prior to him going back in time to warn the Z fighters of the Androids.

To make matters even more complicated, isn't Dabura on the same power as Perfect Cell? There is no way the Androids (even less powerful than they were in the past) could have killed Babidi with Dabura as his bodyguard, unless they got a pot shot in. That would just lead to Dabura being the one to destroy the Androids and not Trunks.

Babidi and Dabura probably just went to a different planet, destined to never find a high enough power.

KillerCory · Post by **KillerCory** » Sat May 24, 2008 3:12 pm

Wouldn't Babidi if he was killed by the Androids be way before Trunks is even a teenager.

Yep, all the things with Babidi and Buu would happen when Trunks was 7 years old. Either they died (Androids?).

Or they might have taken Buu's Egg and tried to gather energy elsewhere. And during this time they could have been stopped by the Lord of Lords.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Sat May 24, 2008 4:24 pm

Xyex wrote:Ah, yes, the Lazy Cell Theory™ that Desire developed to the timelines more complicated. Yeah. He just shows up in the past and is then never heard from again. With no real plausible explanation.

No less plausible than your reasons for Buu not showing up.

-Killed by the Androids: Cell was weakened by his larval stage, and any of the Androids. I suspect #16 would run into him in the wilderness (as he was apt to do)

-Not enough energy sources: If Cell was waiting for a specific time to emerge based on the amount of available energy (because, as we know, he needed to absorb people to regain his strength) he might have missed his opportunity because of the Androids killing spree.

SonOfBurdock · Post by **SonOfBurdock** » Sun May 25, 2008 3:33 am

To think I thought I had this all figured out in my head until now. There are so many intricacies to this stuff. I doubt Toriyama can even explain it without creating paradoxes.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Sun May 25, 2008 2:26 pm

To make matters even more complicated, isn't Dabura on the same power as Perfect Cell? There is no way the Androids (even less powerful than they were in the past) could have killed Babidi with Dabura as his bodyguard, unless they got a pot shot in. That would just lead to Dabura being the one to destroy the Androids and not Trunks.

Dabura wouldn't give a crap after Babidi's dead. He'd just leave. And if the two of them can't sense the Androids (no detectable energy) then they wouldn't even know they could use Ki. Hell, they could have just been caught in a stray energy blast by sheer accident, the Androids never even having met them.

No less plausible than your reasons for Buu not showing up.

I'd have to disagree. Where as with Buu there's plenty of reasons for Babidi's presence to go completely unnoticed there's no logical reason for Cell to go unnoticed.

-Killed by the Androids: Cell was weakened by his larval stage, and any of the Androids. I suspect #16 would run into him in the wilderness (as he was apt to do)

There's no way he's weaker than 18, even after just emerging from the ground. And since this is a 'remake' timeline of the History of Trunks story 16 doesn't exist because Trunks (who you say is from this timeline) doesn't know of him. And he would have been spotted by someone at some point. And if he fought Cell such a battle would not have gone unnoticed because Cell's power would have been way beyond obvious. Just as it was against Piccolo.

-Not enough energy sources: If Cell was waiting for a specific time to emerge based on the amount of available energy (because, as we know, he needed to absorb people to regain his strength) he might have missed his opportunity because of the Androids killing spree.

He seemed to just need a set period of time to regenerate into his Imperfect Form from his laval state. Also, his emergence was only a few hours, maybe a day, after the Androids surfaced. They'd not have done nearly enough damage yet to cause any problems with him locating people to drain of energy.

I just can't see any logical way of explaining a Cell that no one sees, sesnes, or notices. Ever.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Sun May 25, 2008 2:47 pm

Bah... I again find myself behind the blasted firewall. I can't reference the youtube video. What exactly are we bickering over?

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Sun May 25, 2008 3:16 pm

@Xyex and desirecampbell: I think the main difference between your theories is the issue of whether or not new timelines are created when you arrive in a point in time that hasn't yet happened.
If yes, there's a whole lot of timelines and some weird things / inconsistencies. If no, there are just four timelines and other weird things / inconsistencies. Here's how I see it:

If the traveller jumps forward in time, returns to the future, or travels to a time after the previous departure, it does not spawn a new timeline.

In all of these situations, the traveller jumps to a point in time that has not yet happened. When Trunks returns to a later point in the past (his second visit to the past), it is the same, because the new history did not yet happen.
From Trunks' point of view, the new history extended up to the point where he left. Anything after that point is uncharted history. In these situations, there is no 'old' timeline to create a new one from; there is only the 'new' timeline, hence the reason why no new timelines are created in the above situations.

To put it another way:

The first rule of Dragonball-style time travel is that timelines are preserved. This can be compared with a backup being made when something is overwritten. When Trunks travels to the past, he overwrites the history that was already there. The old history is backed up and the new history unfolds in a new timeline.
When Trunks travels to a point in the future, there is no history yet. Hence, nothing is overwritten; by this kind of jumps history is just written. Therefore, no old history is backed up and no new timelines are created.

We can't know for sure whether or not this is true, but I prefer it because we'd end up with A LOT of timelines otherwise. Also, the analogies with writing versus overwriting and the inability to 'back up' something that hasn’t been written seem to make much sense to me.

But ultimately, it's just a matter of taste.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun May 25, 2008 3:55 pm

(I read your manifesto, Terra-jin... looks like you pasted from it.

. I like it over all; I'm not entirely sure as to wy we need a Trunks X, though...

).

Somehow, thinking about what fits in the hidden timeline makes me want to watch movies 10 and 11.
... So I should go buy the Broli box set.

.

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Sun May 25, 2008 4:11 pm

Heh, busted

About TrunksX, he's needed because Trunks4 ('our' Trunks) went to the first timeline at a time that had already happened there. This means that the first timeline, complete with Trunks1's arrival, is copied into timeline 4. TrunksX is this second Trunks1. I know, it's very difficult

It's rather fun to think about which movies could fit in the hidden timeline. I think the Broli movies could fit well, except that in movie 8, Trunks has long hair (meaning that he went to the RoSaT). If he did, he would've been strong enough to not be killed by Cell in the future.

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun May 25, 2008 4:38 pm

I was thinking the same thing (with regards to movie8). Maybe Trunks didn't train as hard in a timeline without Cell? (I doubt, though.

. Also, he was taken off guard in the timeline where he died, and not in the one in which he survived, right?).

Another thing just came to mind, though...
... When was Cell's arrival in the past relative to the Freeza fight?
Ok, so I don't even know why I'm bringing this idea up, but... the things that people cite as wrong with movie5 fitting into continuity (which... don't really dissuade me from thinking it fits in the normal anime timeline, but whatever...) wouldn't be a problem if Goku died on Namek and was wished to Earth... which might have happened if Cell's arrival somehow changed when the wish on Shenron happened. (Though I'm not entirely sure why it wouldn't have the opposite of the desired effect, but whatever...).
... Of course, then none of the others fit, so I'll just drop it.

(Psst: could movie11 fit in the hidden timeline if Krillin and 18 still got together, and we have a way to deal with its predecessors?).

Hmm, thoughts on extra Trunks... I can see why another Trunks would be displaced by the split, but his time machine seems like a different matter entirely... Maybe the split created a copy of the timeline to which his time machine pointed as well? (I find that unlikely... but it would eliminate the extra Trunks problem? Or am I completely off...?)

Terra-jin · Post by **Terra-jin** » Sun May 25, 2008 5:05 pm

Hmm, that might be possible, but that new timeline would still be a copy of timeline 1. Thus TrunksX is still there. Unless the split somehow caused the new timeline to be copied from the 'older version' of timeline 1... but even that timeline has its own Trunks... I don't see a way around it yet, but it would probably require an entirely different approach, like desirecampbell's theory. However, that theory requires the premise of a 'lazy Cell', which I find an equal, if not greater inconsistency.

So until (and if) I can find a solution to the TrunksX inconsistency, I'm just accepting it.

About movie 11: maybe the cyborgs in the hidden timeline were converted, just like they were in the main timeline? If that were true, then Krillin and 18 could still have gotten together. Why not right? Anything's possible

caejones · Post by **caejones** » Sun May 25, 2008 5:40 pm

Yeah, Hidden movie11 seems viable... it's 10 (and to a lesser extent 8, but we already went over that ) that makes me wonder... since 10 relies on Goku being dead, but 8 would make it seem that he is likely to survive the Cell-era... o.o.
Oh dear, I am going to try to find the Broli boxset now, aren't I?

(This whole thing makes me want to start another "How to make the movies fit" discussion...

)

... I'm not sure what part of Desirecampbell's model requires the Lazy Cell timeline, though... Or is it that there are two Cells that timetravel, and one of them is in the timeline where Trunks survives?
(I had a hard time making sense of the video the last time I watched it... I might try again, but I think it's the diagrams that are leaving me lost...)

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon May 26, 2008 2:02 pm

... I'm not sure what part of Desirecampbell's model requires the Lazy Cell timeline, though...

He has the Trunks we see in the series coming from a duplicate ruined future with the only difference being that there's a Cell in the ground. This is his explanation for how we've got a Trunks in the same past timeline as Cell.

I just chalk up the extra Trunks to some inexplicable time travel phenomenon created when Toriyama didn't consider why Cell would appear in the same timeline as Trunks if he arrived before Trunks.

... When was Cell's arrival in the past relative to the Freeza fight?

Cell came back a year before Trunks did. Trunks arrived in August of 764, Cell sometime in 763, and the SSJ Goku and Freeza battle was in December of 762.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Mon May 26, 2008 4:03 pm

Xyex wrote:
I just chalk up the extra Trunks to some inexplicable time travel phenomenon created when Toriyama didn't consider why Cell would appear in the same timeline as Trunks if he arrived before Trunks.

Maybe, due to the myriad of fluctuations that can occur in a parallel dimension (which is essentially what these divergent timelines are) Cell from one timeline failed to kill Trunks. Like I mentioned before, even non USSJ, a Trunks who could take out 17 and 18 alone should have been able to at least challenge Cell. This could account for the Unseen Timeline.

To put another way. if Cell always jumped back to a point before Trunks started causing divergent timelines, then he should always be there when Trunks shows (regardless of who jumped "first"). So maybe, for some reason, he didn't always make his jump. Maybe he got the drop on one Trunks, but stepped on a twig or something and lost the element of surprise on another, or accidentally destroyed the machine in the scuffle.

The only other thing I could think of would be 16 detonating on him before he could absorb 17. Trunks having shown up should set in motion the events leading to 16's awakening after all. Basically 16 or a non-RoSaT trained Trunks had to do the deed. Otherwise we have an extra Cell hanging around.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon May 26, 2008 4:33 pm

caejones wrote:I'm not sure what part of Desirecampbell's model requires the Lazy Cell timeline, though

When Cell kills Trunks and goes back in time in search of the androids he creates a new timeline (just like when everyone time travels). That timeline splits off from when he lands (the past is the same on each, but the future is separate), so this new timeilne is separated from Trunks' time jumps (the one that Cell just killed, we'll call him Trunks-A).

So, at this point, Trunks-A has had his bad future timeline, at least one new one where he went back in time, and this new one Cell makes

Now, this timeline goes on (apparently) the same as Trunks-A's timeline, and this new timeline's Trunks (we'll call him Trunks-B) goes back in time to save Goku and warn him of the androids. When Trunks-B lands in the past, he creates a new timeline (just like every time-jump does) and this is almost the same as the timeline that Trunks-A makes except that Cell's buried in the forest. So, when Trunks-B time travels back in time again (to help with the androids) Cell's there too.

The 'lazy Cell' is the Cell that was in the ground and goes unnoticed throughout Trunks-B's future.

As for the explanation of it:
The best thing to do is assume that everything is the same in Trunks' timeline as the main one (with SSj2 Gohan) unless specifically shown to be different. That means, assume that Cell emerged from the ground, #16 exists and is awakened, Babidi tries to resurrect Buu; and we just don't know about them because our only connection with Trunks' timeline is Trunks himself, and he apparently never meets them.

"Why wouldn't Trunks have met Cell?"
The easiest answered is that #17 or #18 killed him. We know he was weakened from his larval stage, and that even after absorbing a town (or more?) he was weaker than Piccolo, who was on-par with #17. Even more simply - Cell went around absorbing people, the only reason he would do so is if he wasn't powerful enough to absorb #17 and #18.

Further, assuming #16 was activated, he was even stronger than Cell after absorbing enough people to satisfy himself.