Is Bulma immoral

[Yuji]

How about we not dive into ableism? Because using that as an insult is incredibly ablest.

Sorry, must have missed the memo saying that being disabled necessitates spending one's time online and/or that being always online is exclusive to disabled people.

Yes, I am almost exclusively online and have been since my teenager years. I'm a disabled adult. And I hardly see what this has anything to do with what I said.

It means you have spent so much time in your online political circles that you have lost track of what normal discourse is. Nothing I said is an alt-right dogwhistle.

I mean, the most popular pieces of media need to be criticized and evaluated. They're the ones people subject themselves to the most. By not challenging them and others on this, then that inherently is a problem. So yes, we need to actually challenge both the media that is popular, seen by the most eyes, and the users who try to argue against it.

Disregarding the fact that there are multiple schools of criticism that don't focus on post-structuralist analysis, the most popular pieces of media are criticized and evaluated. We have universities, we have critics and reviewers, we even have random people like yourself and I. Because of this, not everyone is obligated to engage in the same kind of analysis you want because a) most people aren't frankly qualified to do so and bring more harm to the cause than good, and b) uh, freedom is kinda cool and nobody should be forced to engage in discourse they don't want to?

I also don't appreciate you telling me to move on. Dragon Ball is a favorite franchise of mine. I grew up with it. It was a gateway piece for me. But at the end of the day, it's something that still gets new content to this day and the fact it has not made efforts to update numerous things in newer media, in itself, is a problem. And yes, it should be challenged. It's a popular kids television series. Kids will see this. And that's important to address it, notably around the younger audience.

You keep misunderstanding what I'm saying. At no point did I make the argument that you can't challenge problematic portrayals in media you enjoy. Only that you shouldn't force others to do the same, and that you shouldn't let it consume you to the point where it seems you can't enjoy the series without mentioning its cultural deficiencies in the same breath.

Dragon Ball is a favorite franchise of mine. i grew up with it, and I acknowledge that it portrays groups I and my friends belong to in a rather negative light. Do I get hung up on it and make it my life's mission on Dragon Ball forums to point out the series' portrayal of minorities? No, I take the art as it is, it doesn't really detract from my enjoyment of it. I acknowledge its problematic shortcomings and I can engage in discussion, but ultimately I'd rather not. It does not help me to reiterate what I already know, I simply enjoy the good, acknowledge the bad and let it go. It's an escapist fantasy that doesn't take itself too seriously and never has.

[JewyB]

She survived Oolong's truck getting blown up, made it out of Namek in one piece even while it was falling apart, and has a presumably healthy sex-life with a super-powered space viking who never holds back on anything, and at the very least her mom doesn't seem to age. It's worth discussion.

I may have made a typo but i feel i can save this an get it back on topic!

Lets discuss how Bulmas immortality is likely the result of science and/or dragon ball abus, is it moral of her to keep that to herself? Hmmmm...

Yeah... about that...



No she's not

Hey, a LITTLE immortal, she's weak against other immortals, it turns out.

Totally headcanon-ing that most of the pre-Black murders were done by regular Zamasu, he could handle those and he'd love it!

[MasenkoHA]

What did she do or say specifically that gave off any impression that she was a High Schooler? "Hey, I helped rescue the sea turtle too, don't I get a reward?!".. Yeah so juvenile.

I mean absolutely yes. “Where’s my reward “ is pretty juvenile she also doesn’t look especially older.

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And unless i'm missing something in regards to normalizing bad habits within society you'd be hard pressed to find any guy who went and grabbed a girls butt because Master Roshi did it on TV.

So this is missing the point. Dragon Ball alone is not single handedly responsible for normalizing sexual harassment. But works like Dragon Ball do. When fictional works show women’s consent to being grabbed and touched as not being important that normalizes that mentality. Fiction does not exist in a vacuum.

Dragon Ball’s dismissive attitude towards sexual harassment is part of the problem it’s not the sole problem.

[goku the krump dancer]

What did she do or say specifically that gave off any impression that she was a High Schooler? "Hey, I helped rescue the sea turtle too, don't I get a reward?!".. Yeah so juvenile.

I mean absolutely yes. “Where’s my reward “ is pretty juvenile she also doesn’t look especially older.

Initially they did it with out expecting anything, it wasn't until Goku got Kinto'un that Bulma asked about a gift for herself which is a pretty normal reaction. While its hard to look at age through the character's eyes we know that Toriyama has a very distinct way he draws people looking older with the crows feet and mouth wrinkles, which no one really gets until the end of the series. So i think its a stretch to say she didnt look of age when none of the adults look older than 25 until the show comes to an end.


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And unless i'm missing something in regards to normalizing bad habits within society you'd be hard pressed to find any guy who went and grabbed a girls butt because Master Roshi did it on TV.

So this is missing the point. Dragon Ball alone is not single handedly responsible for normalizing sexual harassment. But works like Dragon Ball do. When fictional works show women’s consent to being grabbed and touched as not being important that normalizes that mentality. Fiction does not exist in a vacuum.

Dragon Ball’s dismissive attitude towards sexual harassment is part of the problem it’s not the sole problem.

[/quote]

Well I guess that's a fair assessment to a degree, I'd hardly say Sexual Harassment is normalized, especially in modern culture. Dudes are real life afraid to approach women because they don't wanna be labeled anything or get accused of something negative. More over I don't think treating something like a gag equates to dismissing it in real life. Roshi gets reprimanded when he steps out of bounds, no one in the show whos socially competent just allows him to do what he does and the victims just don't sit there and take it, Bulma has sent him flying on numerous occasions. Lunch shooting at the boys is also played for laughs but I think we all understand that just casually shooting someone isnt okay. Or in the case like Elmer Fud shooting Daffy Duck's beak backwards is clearly supposed to be funny but I don't think its perpetuating some idea that shooting people is okay.

I'll say the "Hand Banana" episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force is more troubling than anything in Dragon Ball because the mutant dog is just casually raping carl and literally nothing is done about it. Even then though I dont think folks watched that and thought "Hmmm itd cool to just penetrate someone against there will because i'm in the mood." More so its sexual humor done in poor taste for shock value.

[jjgp1112]

]I mean, the most popular pieces of media need to be criticized and evaluated. They're the ones people subject themselves to the most. By not challenging them and others on this, then that inherently is a problem. So yes, we need to actually challenge both the media that is popular, seen by the most eyes, and the users who try to argue against it.

Disregarding the fact that there are multiple schools of criticism that don't focus on post-structuralist analysis, the most popular pieces of media are criticized and evaluated. We have universities, we have critics and reviewers, we even have random people like yourself and I. Because of this, not everyone is obligated to engage in the same kind of analysis you want because a) most people aren't frankly qualified to do so and bring more harm to the cause than good, and b) uh, freedom is kinda cool and nobody should be forced to engage in discourse they don't want to?


Dragon Ball is a favorite franchise of mine. i grew up with it, and I acknowledge that it portrays groups I and my friends belong to in a rather negative light. Do I get hung up on it and make it my life's mission on Dragon Ball forums to point out the series' portrayal of minorities? No, I take the art as it is, it doesn't really detract from my enjoyment of it. I acknowledge its problematic shortcomings and I can engage in discussion, but ultimately I'd rather not. It does not help me to reiterate what I already know, I simply enjoy the good, acknowledge the bad and let it go. It's an escapist fantasy that doesn't take itself too seriously and never has.

Absolutely, these two parts. Fandom means different thing to different people and a lot of folks aren't even really equipped to talk about the greater context of shit, especially for a cartoon they liked as kids. There's too much in the world and in people's lives for anybody to be obligated to talk about the implications of certain pieces of media. I'm not going to lose sleep if some DB fan has no interest in discussing why Officer Black and Mr. Popo's designs racists. At the end of the day, it's an escapist cartoon that's not remotely made to inspire philosophical and political discussion, and that element influences the headspace of most fans when they approach it.

I'm all-ears for conversations about homophobia and misogyny in rap music and the cartoon of my avi since it often impedes the greater purpose of the art but when it comes to Dragon Ball? Man, I'm just trying to fixate on how to fix Goku's pink skin in the Dragon Boxes and explain why Gohan wasn't out of character in the Cell Games.

[Polyphase Avatron]

As far as ChibiGoku's post, I don't even know where to begin. No one here has talked down to, berated, insulted or made lite of anyone on this thread and if they did, it was definitely warranted in that brief moment (looking at the Vegeta Morality talking point). If anything Julie (since that seems to be who you're defending) is one of the main culprits who causes these discussions to spiral out of control or be twisted into some Women Hate Conspiracy tirades. She's more than free to express her opinions but it becomes equally exhausting when every other post of hers is some sexual fantasy or her feeling insulted by something that wasn't inherently done in bad faith within the series.

And unless i'm missing something in regards to normalizing bad habits within society you'd be hard pressed to find any guy who went and grabbed a girls butt because Master Roshi did it on TV.

I both agree and disagree here. You're right that her sexual fantasy posts just come off as creepy and unwelcome. If there was a straight cis guy here who tried to turn every discussion remotely involving a female character into a fantasy about how he wanted to fuck them, wouldn't that be considered creepy and unwelcome? So why is she given a free pass?

On the other hand, the idea that you can't feel insulted by something that wasn't 'inherently done in bad faith' seems off. If someone insults you or says something upsetting, it's still a problem even if they didn't intend it that way. Hopefully it can be cleared up with a simple explanation so the offending person can learn why it's offensive and why they shouldn't do it, but obviously the writers of Dragonball media aren't reading these forums, so making a stink about it online is perfectly okay if you want awareness to spread.

[MyVisionity]

Roshi gets reprimanded when he steps out of bounds, no one in the show whos socially competent just allows him to do what he does and the victims just don't sit there and take it, Bulma has sent him flying on numerous occasions. Lunch shooting at the boys is also played for laughs but I think we all understand that just casually shooting someone isnt okay. Or in the case like Elmer Fud shooting Daffy Duck's beak backwards is clearly supposed to be funny but I don't think its perpetuating some idea that shooting people is okay.

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay. Him being reprimanded for his actions doesn't change that. Especially when he continues doing it anyway, all the while played for laughs, and when the character is supposed to be a good guy.

The gun violence isn't really comparable since that isn't about reinforcing patterns of oppression. However, even those scenes with Lunch or Fudd are still problematic on some level and can send negative messages about gun violence.

[MasenkoHA]

As far as gun violence goes we also need to remember that Japan has pretty strict gun laws. So it’s not like your average Japanese third grader has a gun laying around the house. But sexual harassment is a huge problem in Japan too https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news ... ories/361/

[Aim]

Don't start appealing to civility, you came off looking very bad and I jumped the gun, should I have thought through my response?

Pffft. I didn't come off looking bad. If anything, I came off looking lazy, but did say I would go into detail the next day. I didn't bother because of your nuclear post. All of your assumptions are in YOUR head which is why you went so hard. All you had to do was ask questions or wait for my response but you led with r*** defender which doesn't exactly lead to more discussion. Even this post, framing me a uncivil when there's nothing I've posted that should have given you that impression of me.

I would drill deeper because I have a lot to say on the topic of attraction/conquerors/etc, but judging from your last response (which you missed the point each and every time) it would be pointless and derailing of a topic that's already been derailed, so again, I'll leave it be.

The redpill community is known for using these terms such as "sexual selection" and adopting other scientific words to try push their agenda. This comes off as bad faith but I'll be charitable and assume you thought I didn't know this already.

There's nothing for you to be charitable about. I used a Darwinian term. Associating it with redpill is YOUR problem, not mine. I'm not sure how you don't recognize this, but there's no point trying to explain it to you either.

Likewise, the way you’re interpreting me interpreting your response is wrong and doesn’t come off genuine, most people who know the redpill community can see where the similarities are. I didn’t actually call you a rape defender, I asked whether you were going to defend rape, which after your first response it sure as hell sounded like you were downplaying it.

I suspected you were using the Darwinian term the same way the red pill community does, stripping women of humanity usually and making them out to be animalistic in nature, similar to lions and being attracted to the male who “conquers”, however even though you didn’t exactly do that, you came off with “they wanted it” vibes.

You constantly have been bringing up “there’s no point explaining to you” as if I haven’t listened at all. You were the one who first called me uncivil, that’s appealing to civility, this isn’t about me not understanding or misinterpreting your comments, it’s about you as you said being too lazy to come up with sentences that don’t frame you as creepy.

there's nothing I've posted that should have given you that impression of me.

Ironically, this is really the reason this conversation should end.

[Aim]

As far as gun violence goes we also need to remember that Japan has pretty strict gun laws. So it’s not like your average Japanese third grader has a gun laying around the house. But sexual harassment is a huge problem in Japan too https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news ... ories/361/

Yeah the sexual assault in Japan is a massive problem. They need to normalize outing the harassers in public and calling the police.

[SJR]

This thread is beyond stupid. So much 888 about a cartoon. And isn't ChibiGoku like 40 something by now?

[jjgp1112]

This thread is beyond stupid. So much 888 about a cartoon. And isn't ChibiGoku like 40 something by now?

No need to be a weirdo.

[MasenkoHA]

This thread is beyond stupid. So much 888 about a cartoon. And isn't ChibiGoku like 40 something by now?

Damn you came out of a six year hiatus just to post this.


Not the most epic of comeback’s I’ll tell you that much.

[goku the krump dancer]

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay.

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

On the other hand, the idea that you can't feel insulted by something that wasn't 'inherently done in bad faith' seems off. If someone insults you or says something upsetting, it's still a problem even if they didn't intend it that way. Hopefully it can be cleared up with a simple explanation so the offending person can learn why it's offensive and why they shouldn't do it, but obviously the writers of Dragonball media aren't reading these forums, so making a stink about it online is perfectly okay if you want awareness to spread.

Its okay to express your grievances with something but to do it in almost every other post, is not only excessive but exhausting for others to read over and over again, especially when it doesn't have to necessarily apply. There's an aura of arrogance to that where somehow every conversation has to be about you and your political ideals.

[SJR]

These guys hate sexy women cause that's what they'll never be.

[JulieYBM]

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay.

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

Because men make us feel uncomfortable every day and actually get away with it. Media like this normalizes the attitude of "boys will be boys".

Like...this isn't some erotica where the misogyny is a turn-on, it's a mainstream work playing itself straight and doing so while marketed towards kids. Criticizing this and expecting better is what we're supposed to be doing as adults.

[SJR]

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay.

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

Because men make us feel uncomfortable every day and actually get away with it. Media like this normalizes the attitude of "boys will be boys".

Like...this isn't some erotica where the misogyny is a turn-on, it's a mainstream work playing itself straight and doing so while marketed towards kids. Criticizing this and expecting better is what we're supposed to be doing as adults.

None of those things have ever happened to you.

[MasenkoHA]

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay.

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

Being the victim of cartoonish slapstick is hardly getting punished for it.

The show absolutely portrays it as “Oh that rascally ol man he’ll never learn lol!” and not “Holy crap this sexual predator should be in jail and on a sex offenders list”

[MasenkoHA]

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

Because men make us feel uncomfortable every day and actually get away with it. Media like this normalizes the attitude of "boys will be boys".

Like...this isn't some erotica where the misogyny is a turn-on, it's a mainstream work playing itself straight and doing so while marketed towards kids. Criticizing this and expecting better is what we're supposed to be doing as adults.

None of those things have ever happened to you.

Who shat in your cornflakes?

[goku the krump dancer]

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay.

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

Because men make us feel uncomfortable every day and actually get away with it. Media like this normalizes the attitude of "boys will be boys".

Cat Calling isnt cool, as in screaming "AAAYYYE BITCH YOU LOOK GOOD, I'LL WEAR THAT ASS OUT" while a girl is 20 feet away from you, is not okay. However the world isn't anyone's personal hotel, I mean, despite some common courtesies that exist no one is obligated to make you or me feel comfortable in that way, every where we go. Self preservation is part of living for a reason. People will try you, that's just the way it is.

The Roshi stuff absolutely perpetuates the idea that sexual assault is okay.

How, if he's getting punished for it? That makes zero sense to me. That's like saying Dragon Ball is pro cannibalism because Cell eats people.

Being the victim of cartoonish slapstick is hardly getting punished for it.

He's being punished within the context in which the situation is presented, which is humor. Being as though he's being punished at all or just comes up short in some comedic way ( being flushed down the toilet, having the table fall on his head etc) I dont see how his antics are assisting in the subtle brainwashing of little Timmy, Deon and Kyosuke into thinking that making unwanted advances toward women is acceptable.