Despite his goals, Zamasu is pure of heart?

[Koitsukai]

Never said that but okay. I didn't say the Saiyans can't be applauded of some things, I said that only applauding them is painting only half the picture.

Yes, Goku got very strong because he worked and trained hard, would he have gotten that strong if he had earthling genes instead of Saiyan genes? No. And since we know that it's the Supreme Kais who created mortal lives and it's explicitly stated by Zamasu that they created all mortals including the Saiyans...

And Yes it's the same thing in real life by the way. It's all about luck. If you're lucky you're born in a rich family without any mental impairment, if you're unlucky you're not even born because something goes wrong during the pregnancy. Similarly, in the DB verse, if you're lucky you're born a Saiyan (hence why Kefla said "hurray for being born a Saiyan!"), if you're unlucky you're born as one of those countless fodder species. So plz don't tell me Goku got that strong only because he trains so hard and he works so hard and he's so dedicated, because if he was born in the wrong species he'd be fodder like Tien, no matter how many hours he pours into his training.

The comparison with real life that you brought up doesn't make sense because in real life we don't know who created us, we can only guess and speculate. While in DB verse we factually know that the Supreme Kais are the Creator Gods who created mortals.




We don't need to see it. We are already told by the Authorial verbatim that the Gods of Creation (Kais) created and gave intellect to the mortals and that their bodies (genes and Zenkais included) were gifted to them by the Gods. This is directly stated by Zamasu, who was a Supreme Kai.

They create planets and life on them, life then flourishes on its own like Gowasu implied with the Babari race. Anything else added, like saying they particularly created their bodies and potential, or how a certain race is created is headcanon.

It is you who is wrong and is using headcanon. The distinction you make between "creating life and plants at its most basic level" and "creating intelligent mortal life" is directly disproven by the story when Zamasu mentions how Gowasu and the other Kais gave mortals their intellect (stated in ep. 63 when Zamasu is monologuing to the saiyans and they are not listening). Later in ep. 64, while Black is being beat down by Vegeta, he states that the Saiyan bodies are a gift from the Gods and that Vegeta is arrogant for thinking he created that strength on his own (which as I told you is factually proven by the fact that other species train just as hard but are handicapped by dogshit genes).

So actually the story directly confirms via the Supreme Kai Zamasu, that the Supreme Kais create the bodies of the Gods and give them intellect. I might even look for ulterior evidence when I have some more free time.

Anyway, I have not used headcanon once, what I said is backed by the source material and, since I described the scenes I was talking about, you can check for yourself.

The bottom line is that mortals owe their most basic and useful quality to the Gods of Creation: their intellect.

Boy, you really take every single statement to heart, do you? ever heard of figure of speech or a hyperbole?

You are too literal to engage in a conversation with when it involves Zamasu, have a good one.

[SupremeKai25]

They create planets and life on them, life then flourishes on its own like Gowasu implied with the Babari race. Anything else added, like saying they particularly created their bodies and potential, or how a certain race is created is headcanon.

It is you who is wrong and is using headcanon. The distinction you make between "creating life and plants at its most basic level" and "creating intelligent mortal life" is directly disproven by the story when Zamasu mentions how Gowasu and the other Kais gave mortals their intellect (stated in ep. 63 when Zamasu is monologuing to the saiyans and they are not listening). Later in ep. 64, while Black is being beat down by Vegeta, he states that the Saiyan bodies are a gift from the Gods and that Vegeta is arrogant for thinking he created that strength on his own (which as I told you is factually proven by the fact that other species train just as hard but are handicapped by dogshit genes).

So actually the story directly confirms via the Supreme Kai Zamasu, that the Supreme Kais create the bodies of the Gods and give them intellect. I might even look for ulterior evidence when I have some more free time.

Anyway, I have not used headcanon once, what I said is backed by the source material and, since I described the scenes I was talking about, you can check for yourself.

The bottom line is that mortals owe their most basic and useful quality to the Gods of Creation: their intellect.

Boy, you really take every single statement to heart, do you? ever heard of figure of speech or a hyperbole?

You are too literal to engage in a conversation with when it involves Zamasu, have a good one.

Truthfully I was expecting a more refined reply after I collected this intriguing evidence, but oh well not everyone can be impartial in front of potentially contrasting evidence

[capsulecorp]

It is you who is wrong and is using headcanon. The distinction you make between "creating life and plants at its most basic level" and "creating intelligent mortal life" is directly disproven by the story when Zamasu mentions how Gowasu and the other Kais gave mortals their intellect (stated in ep. 63 when Zamasu is monologuing to the saiyans and they are not listening). Later in ep. 64, while Black is being beat down by Vegeta, he states that the Saiyan bodies are a gift from the Gods and that Vegeta is arrogant for thinking he created that strength on his own (which as I told you is factually proven by the fact that other species train just as hard but are handicapped by dogshit genes).

I'm not even really sure what you guys are arguing about at this point, but I did want to point out that this is all anime-only content and probably shouldn't be taken very seriously.

[SupremeKai25]

It is you who is wrong and is using headcanon. The distinction you make between "creating life and plants at its most basic level" and "creating intelligent mortal life" is directly disproven by the story when Zamasu mentions how Gowasu and the other Kais gave mortals their intellect (stated in ep. 63 when Zamasu is monologuing to the saiyans and they are not listening). Later in ep. 64, while Black is being beat down by Vegeta, he states that the Saiyan bodies are a gift from the Gods and that Vegeta is arrogant for thinking he created that strength on his own (which as I told you is factually proven by the fact that other species train just as hard but are handicapped by dogshit genes).

I'm not even really sure what you guys are arguing about at this point, but I did want to point out that this is all anime-only content and probably shouldn't be taken very seriously.

Yes, I know you don't like the anime.

I do though so I'll take it very seriously, thank you very much

[capsulecorp]

It is you who is wrong and is using headcanon. The distinction you make between "creating life and plants at its most basic level" and "creating intelligent mortal life" is directly disproven by the story when Zamasu mentions how Gowasu and the other Kais gave mortals their intellect (stated in ep. 63 when Zamasu is monologuing to the saiyans and they are not listening). Later in ep. 64, while Black is being beat down by Vegeta, he states that the Saiyan bodies are a gift from the Gods and that Vegeta is arrogant for thinking he created that strength on his own (which as I told you is factually proven by the fact that other species train just as hard but are handicapped by dogshit genes).

I'm not even really sure what you guys are arguing about at this point, but I did want to point out that this is all anime-only content and probably shouldn't be taken very seriously.

Yes, I know you don't like the anime.

I do though so I'll take it very seriously, thank you very much

well the problem isn't that i don't like it, it's just not a reliable source for "lore" and canon info about the dragon universe. toei sorta makes stuff up.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm not even really sure what you guys are arguing about at this point, but I did want to point out that this is all anime-only content and probably shouldn't be taken very seriously.

Yes, I know you don't like the anime.

I do though so I'll take it very seriously, thank you very much

well the problem isn't that i don't like it, it's just not a reliable source for "lore" and canon info about the dragon universe. toei sorta makes stuff up.

Okay but there's no lore in the manga version of the arc so we kind of have to rely on the anime version here...

Besidse none of this stuff is really made up. Toriyama already explained many things about the Kais and Supreme Kais in the Super Exciting Guide; like how all Kais come from the "Shinjin" species from the Core World, or how the Supreme Kais are the "Supreme Gods of the Universe".

Which is what I was telling you, that the Kais and Supreme Kais are naturally superior to mortals In the hierarchy of the Cosmos at least (we're not talking about power levels here).

[LoganForkHands73]

Yet in the end it's the Gods (Kais) who created the Saiyans.

Since they are the Gods of Creation, responsible for nurturing life across the Cosmos, they have created the Saiyans and all other mortal species.

Indeed, that's why Goku Black said at one point that the Saiyan bodies are a "gift from the Gods". Because the Kais are indeed their Creators.

And that is also why Zamasu believes the Gods fundamentally failed, since they created a species they could not control (the Saiyans).

So here we see that the Supreme Kais basically play the same role as the "Christian God", since they are the progenitors of all mortals. They are, after all, the Gods of Creation. All mortals were created by them. The Saiyans were also created by them, and so why exactly are mortals (creations) comparable to the Kais (creators)

I'd echo what Koitsukai has been saying, everything you're saying here is completely immaterial considering that the Kais explicitly have no involvement in the evolution of species, so the Saiyans deserve the credit for the adaptations they've naturally made. I interpret the vague anime-only tidbits about Kais giving mortals intelligence nothing more than a figure of speech reflecting Zamasu's entitlement issues.

I'm not interested in arguing anymore about genetic superiority, I was mainly pointing out how the gods can't have the absolute superiority you claim in the face of evidence that the Saiyans and other mortals have outgrown them in many areas. Even ignoring strength, we can take a mere human like Bulma as an example of a mortal matching the gods in intelligence, since the only other being to possess a time machine before her was the Kaioshin of Universe 12. Whether or not the Kais are responsible for creating them doesn't matter at all. If we really were talking about omnipotent gods like the Abrahamic one, then yeah, sure, but the gods in Dragon Ball are obviously fallible and can be surpassing by some mortals.

And, ya know... At the end of the day, this is Dragon Ball. It doesn't take itself nearly this seriously to be a proper medium for these kinds of deep discussions.

[capsulecorp]

I'm not interested in arguing anymore about genetic superiority, I was mainly pointing out how the gods can't have the absolute superiority you claim in the face of evidence that the Saiyans and other mortals have outgrown them in many areas. Even ignoring strength, we can take a mere human like Bulma as an example of a mortal matching the gods in intelligence, since the only other being to possess a time machine before her was the Kaioshin of Universe 12. Whether or not the Kais are responsible for creating them doesn't matter at all. If we really were talking about omnipotent gods like the Abrahamic one, then yeah, sure, but the gods in Dragon Ball are obviously fallible and can be surpassing by some mortals.

And, ya know... At the end of the day, this is Dragon Ball. It doesn't take itself nearly this seriously to be a proper medium for these kinds of deep discussions.

i actually disagree, i think Dragon Ball does have a lot of thematic resonance and integrity. for what it's worth, the longest running theme in the series is exactly the OPPOSITE of this "genetic superiority" nonsense. characters overcome great odds through personal struggle and hard work. goku, a child, defeats adults. a bunch of earthlings defeat highly trained alien soldiers. a scrappy group of fighters topple the galaxy's most threatening empire, and so on. the idea that one group of people are "genetically superior" to another is so contrary to the entire Dragon Ball story that it should be looked at with great skepticism, if at all.

[SupremeKai25]

Yet in the end it's the Gods (Kais) who created the Saiyans.

Since they are the Gods of Creation, responsible for nurturing life across the Cosmos, they have created the Saiyans and all other mortal species.

Indeed, that's why Goku Black said at one point that the Saiyan bodies are a "gift from the Gods". Because the Kais are indeed their Creators.

And that is also why Zamasu believes the Gods fundamentally failed, since they created a species they could not control (the Saiyans).

So here we see that the Supreme Kais basically play the same role as the "Christian God", since they are the progenitors of all mortals. They are, after all, the Gods of Creation. All mortals were created by them. The Saiyans were also created by them, and so why exactly are mortals (creations) comparable to the Kais (creators)

I'd echo what Koitsukai has been saying, everything you're saying here is completely immaterial considering that the Kais explicitly have no involvement in the evolution of species, so the Saiyans deserve the credit for the adaptations they've naturally made. I interpret the vague anime-only tidbits about Kais giving mortals intelligence nothing more than a figure of speech reflecting Zamasu's entitlement issues.

The Saiyans deserve some credit, not all credit.

Also it's actually pretty rude to dismiss the evidence I found (especially after being accused of using "headcanon").

They are also not vague. Nothing about them is vague. It is literally stated (by a Supreme Kai) that the Supreme Kais are responsible for giving mortals their bodies and intellect. Earlier in the arc, while talking to Zamasu, Gowasu also mentions that the Kais do indeed give mortals their intellect, so that they can choose between good and evil, disproving the idea that it's just Zamasu's ego leading him to say those things.

I'm not interested in arguing anymore about genetic superiority, I was mainly pointing out how the gods can't have the absolute superiority you claim in the face of evidence that the Saiyans and other mortals have outgrown them in many areas. Even ignoring strength, we can take a mere human like Bulma as an example of a mortal matching the gods in intelligence, since the only other being to possess a time machine before her was the Kaioshin of Universe 12. Whether or not the Kais are responsible for creating them doesn't matter at all. If we really were talking about omnipotent gods like the Abrahamic one, then yeah, sure, but the gods in Dragon Ball are obviously fallible and can be surpassing by some mortals.

And, ya know... At the end of the day, this is Dragon Ball. It doesn't take itself nearly this seriously to be a proper medium for these kinds of deep discussions.

i actually disagree, i think Dragon Ball does have a lot of thematic resonance and integrity. for what it's worth, the longest running theme in the series is exactly the OPPOSITE of this "genetic superiority" nonsense. characters overcome great odds through personal struggle and hard work. goku, a child, defeats adults. a bunch of earthlings defeat highly trained alien soldiers. a scrappy group of fighters topple the galaxy's most threatening empire, and so on. the idea that one group of people are "genetically superior" to another is so contrary to the entire Dragon Ball story that it should be looked at with great skepticism, if at all.

Yeah sure, the Saiyan fighters (Goku, Vegeta, Broly) toooootally don't have a genetical superiority over the earthling fighters (Tien, Krillin), despite putting in the same amount of hard work and training.

Like seriously, just look at Tien and tell me with a straight face that he isn't handicapped by his garbage genetics

[LoganForkHands73]

i actually disagree, i think Dragon Ball does have a lot of thematic resonance and integrity. for what it's worth, the longest running theme in the series is exactly the OPPOSITE of this "genetic superiority" nonsense. characters overcome great odds through personal struggle and hard work. goku, a child, defeats adults. a bunch of earthlings defeat highly trained alien soldiers. a scrappy group of fighters topple the galaxy's most threatening empire, and so on. the idea that one group of people are "genetically superior" to another is so contrary to the entire Dragon Ball story that it should be looked at with great skepticism, if at all.

Oh no, for sure, I should've been more clear -- I agree that we can all have nuanced discussions about Dragon Ball's themes, but I personally start to draw a line when the debates start trailing into really "deep", hotbed topics like this weird eugenics shit that are far broader than Dragon Ball's usual scope.

[LoganForkHands73]

The Saiyans deserve some credit, not all credit.

Also it's actually pretty rude to dismiss the evidence I found (especially after being accused of using "headcanon").

They are also not vague. Nothing about them is vague. It is literally stated (by a Supreme Kai) that the Supreme Kais are responsible for giving mortals their bodies and intellect. Earlier in the arc, while talking to Zamasu, Gowasu also mentions that the Kais do indeed give mortals their intellect, so that they can choose between good and evil, disproving the idea that it's just Zamasu's ego leading him to say those things.

Yeah sure, the Saiyan fighters (Goku, Vegeta, Broly) toooootally don't have a genetical superiority over the earthling fighters (Tien, Krillin), despite putting in the same amount of hard work and training.

Like seriously, just look at Tien and tell me with a straight face that he isn't handicapped by his garbage genetics

I'm not dismissing any evidence, but I only ask you don't dismiss mine either.

In the Japanese subs, Zamasu and Gowasu's speeches about gods giving mortals knowledge are still pretty vague to me. Creating life should naturally lead to the development of intelligence and sentience. Based on what we see on Planet Babari, evolution seems to be the way organisms develop in Dragon Ball as in real life, but the Kais are compelled only to observe its effects. Gowasu is never shown giving the Babarians intelligence, they develop that on their own without any divine interference. Again though, what does this really have to do with them being inherently superior?

As I understand it, capsulecorp's earlier point was that no one's claiming that ALL mortals are stronger than ALL gods or vice versa, which would indeed be silly in the face of the Grand Priest and Zeno's existence, but that there are examples of both gods and mortals being weak or strong, intelligent or stupid, good or evil, etc. You made a blanket statement that ALL gods must be genetically superior to mortals, yet most of the mortal protagonists could clown on legit gods like Kami, North Kaio, Grand Kaio, and some even surpassed the Kaioshin level, showing that godhood isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[SupremeKai25]

The Saiyans deserve some credit, not all credit.

Also it's actually pretty rude to dismiss the evidence I found (especially after being accused of using "headcanon").

They are also not vague. Nothing about them is vague. It is literally stated (by a Supreme Kai) that the Supreme Kais are responsible for giving mortals their bodies and intellect. Earlier in the arc, while talking to Zamasu, Gowasu also mentions that the Kais do indeed give mortals their intellect, so that they can choose between good and evil, disproving the idea that it's just Zamasu's ego leading him to say those things.

Yeah sure, the Saiyan fighters (Goku, Vegeta, Broly) toooootally don't have a genetical superiority over the earthling fighters (Tien, Krillin), despite putting in the same amount of hard work and training.

Like seriously, just look at Tien and tell me with a straight face that he isn't handicapped by his garbage genetics

I'm not dismissing any evidence, but I only ask you don't dismiss mine either.

In the Japanese subs, Zamasu and Gowasu's speeches about gods giving mortals knowledge are still pretty vague to me. Creating life should naturally lead to the development of intelligence and sentience. Based on what we see on Planet Babari, evolution seems to be the way organisms develop in Dragon Ball as in real life, but the Kais are compelled only to observe its effects. Gowasu is never shown giving the Babarians intelligence, they develop that on their own without any divine interference. Again though, what does this really have to do with them being inherently superior?

As I understand it, capsulecorp's earlier point was that no one's claiming that ALL mortals are stronger than ALL gods or vice versa, which would indeed be silly in the face of the Grand Priest and Zeno's existence, but that there are examples of both gods and mortals being weak or strong, intelligent or stupid, good or evil, etc. You made a blanket statement that ALL gods must be genetically superior to mortals, yet most of the mortal protagonists could clown on legit gods like Kami, North Kaio, Grand Kaio, and some even surpassed the Kaioshin level, showing that godhood isn't all it's cracked up to be.

People here were saying that Zamasu had a "theory" about "Gods being superior to mortals", I said that it is not a theory because they are indeed considered superior to mortals. That's why they have their own innate Ki and why they were not allowed to participate in a lowly tournament between mortals.

Which by the way has nothing to do with power level. Goku can get all the power boosts he wants, he's still not going to rank higher in the Cosmic hierarchy than Supreme Kai Shin.

I am not justifying Zamasu, but the points raised here are not very good. Yes, Zamasu thought mortals were inferior to Gods, but so does most of the other Gods in the Cosmos. If you were to ask a random Destroyer or Supreme Kai what they thought of mortals, they'd tell you they are inferior and must learn their place.

You can then argue that Zamasu was the only God who was so obsessed by mortals that he went rogue (which is correct, and a point is made in the show about how Zamasu is obsessed and fixated on mortals), as opposed to the other Kais who tolerate them. But that is not what was being argued here.

And as far as I recall, Gowasu never told Zamasu to consider mortals as his "equals". He just told him to tolerate and respect their existence.

[capsulecorp]

The Saiyans deserve some credit, not all credit.

Also it's actually pretty rude to dismiss the evidence I found (especially after being accused of using "headcanon").

They are also not vague. Nothing about them is vague. It is literally stated (by a Supreme Kai) that the Supreme Kais are responsible for giving mortals their bodies and intellect. Earlier in the arc, while talking to Zamasu, Gowasu also mentions that the Kais do indeed give mortals their intellect, so that they can choose between good and evil, disproving the idea that it's just Zamasu's ego leading him to say those things.

Yeah sure, the Saiyan fighters (Goku, Vegeta, Broly) toooootally don't have a genetical superiority over the earthling fighters (Tien, Krillin), despite putting in the same amount of hard work and training.

Like seriously, just look at Tien and tell me with a straight face that he isn't handicapped by his garbage genetics

I'm not dismissing any evidence, but I only ask you don't dismiss mine either.

In the Japanese subs, Zamasu and Gowasu's speeches about gods giving mortals knowledge are still pretty vague to me. Creating life should naturally lead to the development of intelligence and sentience. Based on what we see on Planet Babari, evolution seems to be the way organisms develop in Dragon Ball as in real life, but the Kais are compelled only to observe its effects. Gowasu is never shown giving the Babarians intelligence, they develop that on their own without any divine interference. Again though, what does this really have to do with them being inherently superior?

As I understand it, capsulecorp's earlier point was that no one's claiming that ALL mortals are stronger than ALL gods or vice versa, which would indeed be silly in the face of the Grand Priest and Zeno's existence, but that there are examples of both gods and mortals being weak or strong, intelligent or stupid, good or evil, etc. You made a blanket statement that ALL gods must be genetically superior to mortals, yet most of the mortal protagonists could clown on legit gods like Kami, North Kaio, Grand Kaio, and some even surpassed the Kaioshin level, showing that godhood isn't all it's cracked up to be.

When I look at Tien I see a person who has worked extremely hard and triumphed over a very bad teacher. He's someone who has risked his life by going up against insurmountable odds and helped his friends save the world. All of that is more important than his "bad genetics". I really hope no one in this thread thinks about other people in the real world this way.

When I look at the Supreme Kai or Zamasu I see privilege and entitlement. I see people who have never had to work especially hard and aren't especially strong, physically or in character. Supreme Kai did end up risking his life and contribute to defeating Buu, though you could make a strong argument this is due to the positive influence of Goku and his friends.

Obviously, a Saiyan has more natural strength than an earthling. That doesn't mean Saiyans should rule earthlings. If it helps to avoid the world "superiority", consider the word "supremacy". Zamasu believes in his supremacy over mortals.

[LoganForkHands73]

People here were saying that Zamasu had a "theory" about "Gods being superior to mortals", I said that it is not a theory because they are indeed considered superior to mortals. That's why they have their own innate Ki and why they were not allowed to participate in a lowly tournament between mortals.

Which by the way has nothing to do with power level. Goku can get all the power boosts he wants, he's still not going to rank higher in the Cosmic hierarchy than Supreme Kai Shin.

I am not justifying Zamasu, but the points raised here are not very good. Yes, Zamasu thought mortals were inferior to Gods, but so does most of the other Gods in the Cosmos. If you were to ask a random Destroyer or Supreme Kai what they thought of mortals, they'd tell you they are inferior and must learn their place.

You can then argue that Zamasu was the only God who was so obsessed by mortals that he went rogue (which is correct, and a point is made in the show about how Zamasu is obsessed and fixated on mortals), as opposed to the other Kais who tolerate them. But that is not what was being argued here.

And as far as I recall, Gowasu never told Zamasu to consider mortals as his "equals". He just told him to tolerate and respect their existence.

Gods look down on and underestimate mortals. Mortals constantly shatter their expectations. That's basically the main throughline of the entire show. The gods who show excessive disdain for mortals are shown to bad at their jobs and therefore rank poorly.

When I look at Tien I see a person who has worked extremely hard and triumphed over a very bad teacher. He's someone who has risked his life by going up against insurmountable odds and helped his friends save the world. All of that is more important than his "bad genetics". I really hope no one in this thread thinks about other people in the real world this way.

When I look at the Supreme Kai or Zamasu I see privilege and entitlement. I see people who have never had to work especially hard and aren't especially strong, physically or in character. Supreme Kai did end up risking his life and contribute to defeating Buu, though you could make a strong argument this is due to the positive influence of Goku and his friends.

Obviously, a Saiyan has more natural strength than an earthling. That doesn't mean Saiyans should rule earthlings. If it helps to avoid the world "superiority", consider the word "supremacy". Zamasu believes in his supremacy over mortals.

Couldn't put it better. For real, Tenshinhan's a terrible example if you're looking at "bad genetics", the dude manages to contend with the likes of Goku, Nappa and even Cell despite beginning as an ordinary human (with some 'Three-Eyed Clan' DNA in his ancestry somewhere, depending on who you talk to), simply because he worked his ass off his entire life.

[Anonymous Friend]

I guess you could argue he had a pure intention. But, that's still a severely warped view of the word pure.

No, what we're doing is using the actual definition of the word. Maybe you should try to do the same and follow the conversation.

Great, so I guess there's no such thing as a "pure" heart because no one's heart is purely one emotion.

A pure what heart? The main conversation going on is using what the term "pure of heart" meant, at least in the confines of the story. Anyone who tris to infer any other meaning that is not inline with narative of the show, or is not even taking the route of saying something like "Well, guys you might be wrong with that assertion" while using things from the show or related media, is being disruptive.

[Anonymous Friend]

Gods look down on and underestimate mortals. Mortals constantly shatter their expectations. That's basically the main throughline of the entire show. The gods who show excessive disdain for mortals are shown to bad at their jobs and therefore rank poorly.

Yes. If I'm lvl100 and see someone and deem them a level 5. Then they demostrate level 10 abilities, does that somehow change the fact that they are still low level?

When I look at Tien I see a person who has worked extremely hard and triumphed over a very bad teacher. He's someone who has risked his life by going up against insurmountable odds and helped his friends save the world. All of that is more important than his "bad genetics". I really hope no one in this thread thinks about other people in the real world this way.

Imagine how much further along he would be if he were a saiyan.

You are acting like what SupremeKai25 is saying is incorrect simply because you do not like what it's implying.

Humans are worse of than saiyans. Saiyans are worse off than gods. Goku's and Vegeta have pushed themselves closer and closer into the realm of the gods, but are still so very very far away from it. There's no shame in that. That's like someone working hard to become a millionaire but there are still billionaires and even soon a trillionaire. Tien has trained his entire life. Don't downplay his own personal accomplishments just because he's not a god by saying "The gods ain't shit anyways".

[capsulecorp]

Imagine how much further along he would be if he were a saiyan.

I'm not sure what else to say. I completely understand your point, I just think thematically its strongly at odds of what "Dragon Ball" represents and narratively flat-out ignores a lot of examples of mortals and gods in the story that succeed (or fail!) because of their perseverance and grit, instead of simply their power level. For example, many important fights in the series end because "weak" characters do their best to stand up for what they believe in, rather than simply running away (like Yajirobe) or giving up. Mr. Satan is a great example of this. Or think of Vegeta's pride, nearly fatally ruptured, because he believes himself to be "high class" and Goku "lower class".

Morally and intellectually, I think we should also strongly question this kind of "eugenics type" thinking, especially when its presented as a way to set one group of people above another, or even when its presented as "just the facts, regardless of implications", as you're doing here.

[Skar]

They are also not vague. Nothing about them is vague. It is literally stated (by a Supreme Kai) that the Supreme Kais are responsible for giving mortals their bodies and intellect. Earlier in the arc, while talking to Zamasu, Gowasu also mentions that the Kais do indeed give mortals their intellect, so that they can choose between good and evil, disproving the idea that it's just Zamasu's ego leading him to say those things.

I don't think they literally meant the Kaioshin provide mortals with intellect. All we saw them do in that arc was observe a primitive race then return later to observe the progess they've made but the Kaioshin weren't getting involved in their development.

U7 had a Kaioshin who barely did his job yet the universe still developed intelligent and powerful races. I doubt Shin had any involvement in the evolution of races like Humans, Saiyans, and Nameks.Maybe a previous generation of Kaioshin left behind some primordial soup on random planets? I don't know but I'm assuming nature did most of the work in U7.

People here were saying that Zamasu had a "theory" about "Gods being superior to mortals", I said that it is not a theory because they are indeed considered superior to mortals. That's why they have their own innate Ki and why they were not allowed to participate in a lowly tournament between mortals.

In this lowly tournament, the mortals were also fighting on their behalf since all that universe's gods were going to be killed except for the Angels. I think the theory about "gods being superior to mortals" was already disproven in DB. Aside from mortals surpassing them before, we find out that there's a position that's only held by mortals. A GoD is the counterpart to the Kaioshin and they might be superior in some ways like apparently a much longer lifespan. If Beerus did seal Old Kai then Beerus is older than at least 15 generations of Kaioshin.

[Hulk10]

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

That they provided the basis is enough.

So who is truly responsible for "Saiyans evolving and constantly reaching new levels of power"? The Saiyans who just follow their instincts or the Kais who actually created their bodies, potential, etc.?

And so it is pretty easy to see why Zamasu would take the body of a mortal, despite being a God and hating mortals. He sees it as taking back the gifts of the Gods, what the Gods made. Since the Gods created the saiyans.

And that is why, after Vegeta gives him his melodramatic speech about Goku, he tells him that he is "arrogant", to think that the "Saiyans built that strength on their own", because their bodies "are a gift from the Gods".

Technically they provided the basis for all mortal life but mortal live evolved on their own. As we saw with the Barbari.

I think that's how it is. The series didn't really go into much detail about the Kais updated role that involves creating life. I think it was only in recent interview that mention it but not how it's done. The Kais and Kaioshin aren't omnipotent gods that existed since the beginning and are born from a tree so they might also have a natural origin involving evolution. There has only been one Kaioshin in U7 for five million years and he was pretty bad at his job yet all the various races we've seen in the series came to exist.

Both are responsible because they both have roles in the evolution of the Saiyans. The gods for providing the means for Saiyans to have such potential and the Saiyans for following their instincts and making themselves into the warrior race they are. The gods gave them their minds and abilities and the Saiyans further developed them.


So the Kais created the prototype and that prototype evolved on its own. So what Vegeta said about Saiyans building themselves was true and what Zamasu said about the Saiyan's bodies being gifts from the gods was true as well.

[Aim]

I hope YOU're the one who is joking, to try and claim that humans are equals to Gods.

You’re forgetting that mortals can become gods, it’s not genetic (I don’t think anyway). All in all they are essentially upper level mortals with higher responsibility. Even Whis has a home planet.

Yes, and when they do, they get a special kind of energy which is known as "God Ki", which normally can't be sensed by mortals (unless this has been retconned).

This would imply genetics are involved, wouldn't you agree

And while it is true that mortals can become Destroyer Gods, this does not seem to be the case for the Kais.

All Kais we have seen come from the Shinjin/Core World species, with no exception. And so it seems that this species can indeed be classified as "Divine" in nature, since only they are shown to become Gods of Creation.

And while in the manga Trunks was shown to be training in the arts of the Kais, I don't believe it was ever specified that he was training to replace Shin (which would seem very unlikely, since Shin is still so young, why would he already be thinking of a successor). So while mortals can potentially become "attendants" like Kibito, only the Shinjin are allowed to actually become Gods of Creation.

N-no? I don’t think someone’s ki determines a genetic change, like when Zamasu entered Son Goku’s body, I don’t think there was a genetic change that happened.

God ki is honestly a mystery at this point yet to still be properly explained.

Though honestly I still think Zamasu isn’t Pure of Heart anymore, I used to, but just for the simple fact he took such pleasure in torturing humans is insanely evil. There were kids there as well.