Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[JulieYBM]

Even in a fighting series, How strong the fighters are isn't the only source of value to the story.

Thank you. This x1000. This has been what I’ve been trying to say.

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

And it's worse for that. Super has tried to mend that a little and it should be encouraged to continue to do so.

[ABED]

Even in a fighting series, How strong the fighters are isn't the only source of value to the story.

Thank you. This x1000. This has been what I’ve been trying to say.

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

I think they are given more value than one would assume.

[MetaMoss]

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

I think they are given more value than one would assume.

Unfortunately, it's not enough for a lot of folks, as is plain to see from this discussion. I will say that as I'm thinking about this all again, I'm starting to remember more of the times where Super wasn't "The Goku and Vegeta Show". That's to say, I can understand someone recalling watching the show some years back and having their memories of the better side character moments being washed away in the flood of the Goku/Vegeta status quo.

And it's worse for that. Super has tried to mend that a little and it should be encouraged to continue to do so.

I'm with you there. I haven't read very far into the Super manga, but I seem to get the impression from skimming discussions that the post-ToP arcs don't improve on that, sadly. Here's hoping for Super Hero.

[ABED]

It's not sad. There are a lot of differing opinions about EVERYTHING on this forum.

I still find the whole "Goku/Vegeta Show" criticism really dumb. It was never at any point an ensemble, even during the points where the show was at its most popular.

I can understand someone recalling watching the show some years back and having their memories of the better side character moments being washed away in the flood of the Goku/Vegeta status quo.

The thing about memories is they are often unreliable and inaccurate.

[NickLord]

Dragon Ball's original serialization was interesting because Toriyama wasn't afraid to just fucking ditch characters. Lunch? Upa? Sno? Gone. Yamcha? Chaiotzu? Sidelines. Tenshinhan? Weirdly got the Cell and Boo moments. Kinda in-character I guess. I dunno. Conflicted on that.

And that's why I thought bringing Gohan to the expected conclusion and then Toriyama being like "whoooooooooa-ho-ho wait actually nevermind" was... amazing? And then he freaks out and second-guesses himself and brings him back as Ultimate. And... I actually don't care that much for his Ultimate self the Boo fight.

And that's why I couldn't get behind Super constantly being Gohan yes! Gohan no! Fights yes! Fights no! Confident yes! Confident no! Stella got her groove back! And do did Gohan!

The ice cream scene is my favorite. It's the most memorable to me. It's the Gohan I wanted to see. It literally is the Gohan we see in chapters 518 and 519. That's where I want Gohan to go, because that's where he literally does go.

So I guess I'm raising my hand, too? I think Toriyama should have stuck to his guns, and I wish the Toei staff... well, we're getting into that larger discussion about how Super can't move beyond rehashing all of the plot points and actual panel-for-panel-sometimes highlights of the original...

I want commitment, and this modern series' storytelling ain't it.

Any hack writer can just randomly drop a side character for basically no reason, it doesn't take any talent or "courage" to do so and it isn't unique to Dragonball or Shonen in general.

And folks who defends the bad direction Gohan's character went after the Cell Games by thinking its the natural direction of his character (it really isn't) doesn't even really get Gohan as a character, let alone the whole point of his character arc as a kid. There's no point in giving a character all this potential and set-up if they're never gonna deliver on it.

[MyVisionity]

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

I think they are given more value than one would assume.

They are given *too* much value. Those characters don't deserve it anymore, nor do they require it. Trying to give them value is like trying to recapture something that no longer exists.

I bet if Super had simply omitted those characters from the series altogether, then you wouldn't have so many viewers complaining about their absence or lack of value. That's because it's inherently the way things are supposed to be post-Boo arc. The continued presence of those characters is just a decoy or bait that keeps viewers stuck in the past concerned over whether they have meaningful roles or not.

[NickLord]

No, I was listing things the characters did to contribute to the “big fights” since you’re so hyper focused on the fighting as if the series is nothing but fight scenes.


Gohan actually had a character arc in Super. The series went out of its way to give Gohan a reason to come back as a fighter after he retired for academics, it even had Piccolo retrain him and point out his short comings. Not to mention his Great Saiyaman mini-arc or the episode with Future Trunks that was essentially 20 minutes of Trunks being the avatar for the fan not satisfied with Gohan’s character direction after the Cell Games. Saying helping with the Super Saiyan God ritual and acting as a figurehead team captain is all did is not only disingenuous but really fucking dumb.

Seriously if you’re not going to make arguments in good faith just don’t bother.

I'd like a show of hands here in the DB fandom of who among us specifically wanted to see either of:

1. Gohan starring in a filler episode and fighting some bank robbers

2. Trunks coming to the conclusion that Gohan's character arc leading to him settling down and becoming useless was actually GREAT

The Great Saiyaman shtick used to be entertaining because it was spliced in between moments of Gohan kicking ass. No one is willing to subsist solely on the former with none of the latter. It's compounded further because while everyone else got insane powerups for doing next to nothing prior to the Tournament of Power, he just barely got back to where he already was almost thirty years ago our time. He also has zero confidence in his presentation; when kid Gohan was picking Cell apart at his leisure, when Gohan told Super Buu "fight you, no, I want to kill you", every DB fan was bouncing up and down on their couch. We don't get that anymore.

Once again, you keep repeating that these scenes are good enough and we should be satisfied with them. Once again I say, a lot of people aren't.

True. Even many folks who aren't in the "Chadhan" fanbase can plainly see what's wrong with Gohan's writing and direction since the 2nd half of the Buu saga. The entire point of Kid Gohan's development in Z wasn't meant to lead him to just retire and an irrelevant useless side character because "scholar" (as if a character can't multitask with their lives).

[ABED]

And folks who defends the bad direction Gohan's character went after the Cell Games by thinking its the natural direction of his character (it really isn't) doesn't even really get Gohan as a character, let alone the whole point of his character arc as a kid. There's no point in giving a character all this potential and set-up if they're never gonna deliver on it.

What was the whole point of his character as a kid?

Toriyama paid off Gohan's arc in the very first arc he's introduced in. He found his courage.

The entire point of Kid Gohan's development in Z wasn't meant to lead him to just retire and an irrelevant useless side character because "scholar" (as if a character can't multitask with their lives).

That wasn't the whole point of Gohan. He wasn't useless. He has a complete journey. He realizes being the best martial artist he can be isn't his goal in life.

[MetaMoss]

I can understand someone recalling watching the show some years back and having their memories of the better side character moments being washed away in the flood of the Goku/Vegeta status quo.

The thing about memories is they are often unreliable and inaccurate.

Thank you for letting me know what I'm already aware of.

My point in sharing that was to say that there are people who are coming to this discussion with half-remembered feelings of a show they watched years ago at this point. With that, all I'm asking for is some charity for your fellow poster, because it's in short supply with too many posters on this board. A little charity would make reading and participating in these threads a whole lot more tolerable. These can be (and are, in parts) proper discussions exploring why folks came to the conclusions they did, not just yet another internet debate/shit-flinging contest over which opinion is more correct.

Pretty peas?

[NickLord]

And what others are trying to say is that this series really doesn't give much narrative value at all to non-fighters.

I think they are given more value than one would assume.

They are given *too* much value. Those characters don't deserve it anymore, nor do they require it. Trying to give them value is like trying to recapture something that no longer exists.

I bet if Super had simply omitted those characters from the series altogether, then you wouldn't have so many viewers complaining about their absence or lack of value. That's because it's inherently the way things are supposed to be post-Boo arc. The continued presence of those characters is just a decoy or bait that keeps viewers stuck in the past concerned over whether they have meaningful roles or not.

If Super simply omitted those characters altogether then viewers would actually complain more (look at GT's reception).

"That's because it's inherently the way things are supposed to be post-Boo arc."

Things were not meant to be "inherently" anything Post-Buu because Buu is where the original manga ends and Toriyama had no planned direction for what comes afterwards.

"They are given *too* much value. Those characters don't deserve it anymore, nor do they require it."

How so? By that logic, you can just as easily apply that criticism to Goku himself because he hasn't really had any major character development after the Namek saga, hence why Toriyama initially considered retiring him for good after the Cell Games.

And there's no such thing as giving a major/recurring character "too much value" when as a writer you are suppose flesh out and development said characters as much possible or just permanently write them out once this is no longer possible.

[MasenkoHA]

And folks who defends the bad direction Gohan's character went after the Cell Games by thinking its the natural direction of his character (it really isn't) doesn't even really get Gohan as a character, let alone the whole point of his character arc as a kid. There's no point in giving a character all this potential and set-up if they're never gonna deliver on it.

Because it absolutely is the natural direction. It’s not the only direction, as Super is trying to go a different way that is more palatable to fans, but it is a direction that made sense for the character.


Gohan is introduced telling Bulma he wants to be a scholar. He also tells Piccolo he wants to be a scholar. And Piccolo told him he can be one after they save the world. Gohan makes it very clear he has no real interest in martial arts. This whole Gohan didn’t train in the 7 year gap after Cell wasn’t any sort of character retcon.

[NickLord]

And folks who defends the bad direction Gohan's character went after the Cell Games by thinking its the natural direction of his character (it really isn't) doesn't even really get Gohan as a character, let alone the whole point of his character arc as a kid. There's no point in giving a character all this potential and set-up if they're never gonna deliver on it.

What was the whole point of his character as a kid?

Toriyama paid off Gohan's arc in the very first arc he's introduced in. He found his courage.

The entire point of Kid Gohan's development in Z wasn't meant to lead him to just retire and an irrelevant useless side character because "scholar" (as if a character can't multitask with their lives).

That wasn't the whole point of Gohan. He wasn't useless. He has a complete journey. He realizes being the best martial artist he can be isn't his goal in life.

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

And Gohan never really had any internal conflict over whether or not he wanted to be the best martial artist because he never had that desire in the first place, nor did he actually ever express a strong desire for being a scholar as a kid considering how he would often skip out on studies whenever he could especially in filler. The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

And folks who defends the bad direction Gohan's character went after the Cell Games by thinking its the natural direction of his character (it really isn't) doesn't even really get Gohan as a character, let alone the whole point of his character arc as a kid. There's no point in giving a character all this potential and set-up if they're never gonna deliver on it.

Because it absolutely is the natural direction. It’s not the only direction, as Super is trying to go a different way that is more palatable to fans, but it is a direction that made sense for the character.


Gohan is introduced telling Bulma he wants to be a scholar. He also tells Piccolo he wants to be a scholar. And Piccolo told him he can be one after they save the world. Gohan makes it very clear he has no real interest in martial arts. This whole Gohan didn’t train in the 7 year gap after Cell wasn’t any sort of character retcon.

See above for a clear rebuttal of this overused bad argument. And Gohan not training for 7 years after the Cell Games is just plain stupid and bad writing regardless of whether or not Gohan likes being a fighter, especially when he's the strongest person on Earth and the planet's biggest defense against villains now that Goku is gone. And what makes Gohan look worse is that there's other characters who aren't really into being a fighter yet still train on the regular just in case and for other reasons like Future Trunks and A17 & A18.

The Buu Saga should have been a wakeup call for Gohan, there's even a scene in the anime when Buu's shell is about to hatch where Gohan has a monologue blaming himself for things getting worse.

[ABED]

I can understand someone recalling watching the show some years back and having their memories of the better side character moments being washed away in the flood of the Goku/Vegeta status quo.

The thing about memories is they are often unreliable and inaccurate.

Thank you for letting me know what I'm already aware of.

My point in sharing that was to say that there are people who are coming to this discussion with half-remembered feelings of a show they watched years ago at this point. With that, all I'm asking for is some charity for your fellow poster, because it's in short supply with too many posters on this board. A little charity would make reading and participating in these threads a whole lot more tolerable. These can be (and are, in parts) proper discussions exploring why folks came to the conclusions they did, not just yet another internet debate/shit-flinging contest over which opinion is more correct.

Pretty peas?

First, I wasn't trying to come off as condescending.
Second, Why do you and others write things you presumably want people to read in such tiny font?
And third, what do you mean by showing some charity? If it's to respect someone's opinion, sure. But saying I think they are incorrect doesn't show disrespect.

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

That isn't me projecting. That's his journey in the Siayan arc. There was nothing hidden about that and no inferring that had to be done. It's very simple, functional storytelling. Gohan starts as a sheltered seemingly weak child who does little but study, and his fear causes his inaction. He finds his courage to not only gain control over his power but use it to fight the Saiyans. It was the decision to be brave that allows him to come back and save his father. That's a complete journey. There was a payoff. No projection necessary. Like I get that maybe someone thinks that's an element, but the arc was something deeper, but to say that's not there is silly.

The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

The reluctant hero has been done to death. it's not a superhero story, so having someone who doesn't really want to fight but does it out of obligation doesn't feel at all like Dragon Ball. Taking Goku's place as the protagonist wasn't always the goal. When did Toriyama say that? He may have said at some point he intended for it, but I don't think that was the intention from the first chapter he was created.

[jjgp1112]

And folks who defends the bad direction Gohan's character went after the Cell Games by thinking its the natural direction of his character (it really isn't) doesn't even really get Gohan as a character, let alone the whole point of his character arc as a kid. There's no point in giving a character all this potential and set-up if they're never gonna deliver on it.

What was the whole point of his character as a kid?

Toriyama paid off Gohan's arc in the very first arc he's introduced in. He found his courage.

The entire point of Kid Gohan's development in Z wasn't meant to lead him to just retire and an irrelevant useless side character because "scholar" (as if a character can't multitask with their lives).

That wasn't the whole point of Gohan. He wasn't useless. He has a complete journey. He realizes being the best martial artist he can be isn't his goal in life.

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

And Gohan never really had any internal conflict over whether or not he wanted to be the best martial artist because he never had that desire in the first place, nor did he actually ever express a strong desire for being a scholar as a kid considering how he would often skip out on studies whenever he could especially in filler. The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

Finding his courage WAS his character arc and expressing otherwise is projecting as far as I'm concerned. Gohan was never positioned to be Gokus successor until he was thrust into it in the Cell saga. He'll, even Toriyama himself said - he conceived him as a meek foil to Goku, it was Toei that misinterpreted all that and went all in on MINI GOKU. But Gohans arc was getting over his fear and fighting when he's needed. That was his central conflict, laid out most plainly when he got spooked by Nappa, ran away and received Piccolos harsh scolding. But he nutted up and fought with reckless abandon from then on, and further confirmed his growth by volunteering to go to Namek and even talking back to Chi-Chi.

His behavior in the Cell Games is actually a regression of his character - a justified one that's written well, but a regression nonetheless.

[NickLord]

The thing about memories is they are often unreliable and inaccurate.

Thank you for letting me know what I'm already aware of.

My point in sharing that was to say that there are people who are coming to this discussion with half-remembered feelings of a show they watched years ago at this point. With that, all I'm asking for is some charity for your fellow poster, because it's in short supply with too many posters on this board. A little charity would make reading and participating in these threads a whole lot more tolerable. These can be (and are, in parts) proper discussions exploring why folks came to the conclusions they did, not just yet another internet debate/shit-flinging contest over which opinion is more correct.

Pretty peas?

First, I wasn't trying to come off as condescending.
Second, Why do you and others write things you presumably want people to read in such tiny font?
And third, what do you mean by showing some charity? If it's to respect someone's opinion, sure. But saying I think they are incorrect doesn't show disrespect.

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

That isn't me projecting. That's surface level reading of the Saiyan arc. Gohan starts as a sheltered seemingly weak child who does little but study, and his fear causes his inaction. He finds his courage to not only gain control over his power but use it to fight the Saiyans. It was the decision to be brave that allows him to come back and save his father. That's a complete journey. There was a payoff.

The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

The reluctant hero has been done to death. it's not a superhero story, so having someone who doesn't really want to fight but does it out of obligation doesn't feel at all like Dragon Ball. Taking Goku's place as the protagonist wasn't always the goal. When did Toriyama say that? He may have said at some point he intended for it, but I don't think that was the intention from the first chapter he was created.

"The reluctant hero has been done to death", so has every other character idea because nothing is completely original. And your argument is completely terrible because its an Appeal to Novelty fallacy. Either way, that was the characterization Toriyama give Gohan since he was a kid.

"Dragonball isn't a hero story", again, so what? And what really hurts your argument here is that Gohan deadass went and became a Superhero in the Buu saga lmao.

" it's not a superhero story, so having someone who doesn't really want to fight but does it out of obligation doesn't feel at all like Dragon Ball."

It doesn't matter what the story in general is about when writing a character, what matters is writing a character consistently and naturally. Dragonball isn't a love story yet there's romance in it, Dragonball isn't a revenge story yet there's numerous characters driven by revenge throughout the series, etc.

"Taking Goku's place as the protagonist wasn't always the goal"

Dragonball in general was Toriyama making things up as he goes along with very few things actually being planned. However, Gohan eventually taking over after Gohan was one of the few things actually thought of by Toriyama before it happen, since he's mentioned it a couple times since the Android arc began.

[NickLord]

What was the whole point of his character as a kid?

Toriyama paid off Gohan's arc in the very first arc he's introduced in. He found his courage.

That wasn't the whole point of Gohan. He wasn't useless. He has a complete journey. He realizes being the best martial artist he can be isn't his goal in life.

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

And Gohan never really had any internal conflict over whether or not he wanted to be the best martial artist because he never had that desire in the first place, nor did he actually ever express a strong desire for being a scholar as a kid considering how he would often skip out on studies whenever he could especially in filler. The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

Finding his courage WAS his character arc and expressing otherwise is projecting as far as I'm concerned. Gohan was never positioned to be Gokus successor until he was thrust into it in the Cell saga. He'll, even Toriyama himself said - he conceived him as a meek foil to Goku, it was Toei that misinterpreted all that and went all in on MINI GOKU. But Gohans arc was getting over his fear and fighting when he's needed. That was his central conflict, laid out most plainly when he got spooked by Nappa, ran away and received Piccolos harsh scolding. But he nutted up and fought with reckless abandon from then on, and further confirmed his growth by volunteering to go to Namek and even talking back to Chi-Chi.

His behavior in the Cell Games is actually a regression of his character - a justified one that's written well, but a regression nonetheless.

You're clearly making things up here because there's not a single Toriyama interview that backs up what you say.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

[ABED]

"Dragonball isn't a hero story", again, so what? And what really hurts your argument here is that Gohan deadass went and became a Superhero in the Buu saga lmao.

It was a parody, but DB is still a wuxia story, not a superhero story.

Either way, that was the characterization Toriyama give Gohan since he was a kid.

Yes, his character, but not the story as a whole. DB is at its core about a bunch of fighting maniacs trying to be the best fighters they can be. The lead hero being reluctant and not into the sport of it all would radically change the feel of the story.

It doesn't matter what the story in general is about when writing a character,

Yeah it does. The characters fit within the framework of that world. The rest of this argument doesn't work. Having a superhero in the story is one thing, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that it isn't the genre DB is in. DB isn't about characters out to proactively save the world. Even the whole "Gohan is taking over as Earth's protector" is false as Goku was never Earth's protector. He often puts Earth in danger.

since he's mentioned it a couple times since the Android arc began.

Yes, since THAT arc, not the beginning. It wasn't always the goal.

And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?
I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part.

All this says is he intended it, not WHEN.

[MyVisionity]

If Super simply omitted those characters altogether then viewers would actually complain more (look at GT's reception).

"That's because it's inherently the way things are supposed to be post-Boo arc."

Things were not meant to be "inherently" anything Post-Buu because Buu is where the original manga ends and Toriyama had no planned direction for what comes afterwards.

"They are given *too* much value. Those characters don't deserve it anymore, nor do they require it."

How so? By that logic, you can just as easily apply that criticism to Goku himself because he hasn't really had any major character development after the Namek saga, hence why Toriyama initially considered retiring him for good after the Cell Games.

And there's no such thing as giving a major/recurring character "too much value" when as a writer you are suppose flesh out and development said characters as much possible or just permanently write them out once this is no longer possible.

* They wouldn't complain more about the omission, because they understand innately that those characters times have passed. It's only when you dangle the characters in front of the audience that they are fooled into thinking that they still matter. GT wisely avoided this. I don't think that GT's reception amounted entirely to character complaints.

* It's inherent post-Boo because Toriyama had already established any future direction within the Boo arc itself. The viewers had already absorbed the idea that the other characters were finished, that their roles could potentially be filled with newer characters, and that Goku and Vegeta were the name of the game. It's all precisely *because* the manga had reached the end.

* Goku is the main character. His value will never wane because it is intrinsically tied to the story's very existence, regardless of any discrepancies in character development.

* And just as you suggest, once it is no longer possible to add value and carry on, then perhaps those other characters should be permanently written out.

[ABED]

I'm fine with some characters being written out if their journeys reach their end, but often the value they bring isn't simply a matter of function to the plot. No matter how important other characters become, no one will have that level of familiarity and history with Goku as Kuririn does. Muten Roshi's age and wisdom carries a weight to it.

[VegettoEX]

"Fans would say" / "they would say" isn't particularly worthwhile to get into, I don't think. We're all individual, unique people with our own perspectives. Let's share those instead of making sweeping statements about other (completely made up!) people.

Any hack writer can just randomly drop a side character for basically no reason, it doesn't take any talent or "courage" to do so and it isn't unique to Dragonball or Shonen in general.

I did not say either of those words, even the one you put in quotes.