Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[MetaMoss]

"Fans would say" / "they would say" isn't particularly worthwhile to get into, I don't think. We're all individual, unique people with our own perspectives. Let's share those instead of making sweeping statements about other (completely made up!) people.

But Mike, it's the middle of winter, and I wanna build a strawman, *gosh*!

[jjgp1112]

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

And Gohan never really had any internal conflict over whether or not he wanted to be the best martial artist because he never had that desire in the first place, nor did he actually ever express a strong desire for being a scholar as a kid considering how he would often skip out on studies whenever he could especially in filler. The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

Finding his courage WAS his character arc and expressing otherwise is projecting as far as I'm concerned. Gohan was never positioned to be Gokus successor until he was thrust into it in the Cell saga. He'll, even Toriyama himself said - he conceived him as a meek foil to Goku, it was Toei that misinterpreted all that and went all in on MINI GOKU. But Gohans arc was getting over his fear and fighting when he's needed. That was his central conflict, laid out most plainly when he got spooked by Nappa, ran away and received Piccolos harsh scolding. But he nutted up and fought with reckless abandon from then on, and further confirmed his growth by volunteering to go to Namek and even talking back to Chi-Chi.

His behavior in the Cell Games is actually a regression of his character - a justified one that's written well, but a regression nonetheless.

You're clearly making things up here because there's not a single Toriyama interview that backs up what you say.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

The Toriyama quote is from his "Disaster of a father" interview. I'm on the phone in a foul smelling Brooklyn train right now so I'm not gonna look for it but you can Google it. I'm not in the business of making shit up, thank you very much.

[Cursed Lemon]

What seems to be consistently ignored here is that a lot of people like these characters that are being neglected/misused and actively want to see them in a role that involves more than just taking up space.

"They ARE being used in roles that are more than just taking up space."

If they were, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

[ABED]

What seems to be consistently ignored here is that a lot of people like these characters that are being neglected/misused and actively want to see them in a role that involves more than just taking up space.

"They ARE being used in roles that are more than just taking up space."

If they were, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

There are a lot of characters and a lot of fans all with their own favorites and preferences. No way to satisfy everyone. There would always be someone saying "these characters aren't being used well enough."

[MasenkoHA]

"Finding his courage" wasn't his character arc, that's just you projecting things that aren't there.

And Gohan never really had any internal conflict over whether or not he wanted to be the best martial artist because he never had that desire in the first place, nor did he actually ever express a strong desire for being a scholar as a kid considering how he would often skip out on studies whenever he could especially in filler. The point of Gohan's writing from his debut to Goku's return in the Buu arc was Gohan developing into a more proactive & responsible character (especially when compared to Goku) and to take Goku's place as the protagonist after the latter's death (Toriyama himself said this). And whether or not Gohan wants or enjoys being a fighter is irrelevant because people in fiction and real life choose to do things they don't want to do all of the time for all sorts of reasons, especially if they have some of sort of obligation to do so.

Finding his courage WAS his character arc and expressing otherwise is projecting as far as I'm concerned. Gohan was never positioned to be Gokus successor until he was thrust into it in the Cell saga. He'll, even Toriyama himself said - he conceived him as a meek foil to Goku, it was Toei that misinterpreted all that and went all in on MINI GOKU. But Gohans arc was getting over his fear and fighting when he's needed. That was his central conflict, laid out most plainly when he got spooked by Nappa, ran away and received Piccolos harsh scolding. But he nutted up and fought with reckless abandon from then on, and further confirmed his growth by volunteering to go to Namek and even talking back to Chi-Chi.

His behavior in the Cell Games is actually a regression of his character - a justified one that's written well, but a regression nonetheless.

You're clearly making things up here because there's not a single Toriyama interview that backs up what you say.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Ahem

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/his ... -toriyama/

Akira Toriyama: “During the history of Dragon Ball, Gokū becomes a father and his first son, Son Gohan, is born. When I drew it, I think it was the first time that a Japanese boy’s manga magazine character got married and had children. I did it considering that it would be a good idea because nobody had done it before.

Anyway, I don’t quite remember the reason for Gohan’s appearance. The point is that when I was drawing my previous work, Dr. Slump, I got married and then had children, and it is possible that I unconsciously reflected that I had become a father of a family into my work.

When Gohan appeared I had no intention of making him a protagonist. Due to his studious nature, I had thought of making him scientific so that he would contrast with Gokū in all aspects.

Gohan was always intended to be a foil to his dad. Nothing more, nothing less. Tbh I think a lot of fans ideals of what kind of character Gohan should be is just informed by Toei trying to force Gohan as the main character of Z long before Toriyama thought about it. Even wanting to name the show after him.

At most Cell Games Gohan was a brief divergence when Toriyama was flirting with the idea of making Gohan the lead before changing his mind.

But Gohan growing up to just be dorkly scholar dad was alway in line with Toriyama’s vision.

[NickLord]

"Dragonball isn't a hero story", again, so what? And what really hurts your argument here is that Gohan deadass went and became a Superhero in the Buu saga lmao.

It was a parody, but DB is still a wuxia story, not a superhero story.

Either way, that was the characterization Toriyama give Gohan since he was a kid.

Yes, his character, but not the story as a whole. DB is at its core about a bunch of fighting maniacs trying to be the best fighters they can be. The lead hero being reluctant and not into the sport of it all would radically change the feel of the story.

It doesn't matter what the story in general is about when writing a character,

Yeah it does. The characters fit within the framework of that world. The rest of this argument doesn't work. Having a superhero in the story is one thing, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that it isn't the genre DB is in. DB isn't about characters out to proactively save the world. Even the whole "Gohan is taking over as Earth's protector" is false as Goku was never Earth's protector. He often puts Earth in danger.

since he's mentioned it a couple times since the Android arc began.

Yes, since THAT arc, not the beginning. It wasn't always the goal.

And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?
I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn’t work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part.

All this says is he intended it, not WHEN.

- "The lead hero being reluctant and not into the sport of it" has been done in numerous Wuxia and even modern Shonen stories, so that argument doesn't work.

- Great Saiyaman being a parody doesn't change the fact that it still happen and was still portrayed as a major part of the character before Buu arrives.

- "Yeah it does. The characters fit within the framework of that world". Its your argument that fails because the entire major cast in the franchise has traits that have nothing to do with what DB is generally about. You can't reduce a character or a person to a single thing.

- "DB isn't about characters out to proactively save the world. Even the whole "Gohan is taking over as Earth's protector" is false as Goku was never Earth's protector. He often puts Earth in danger."

This is nonsense lol because proactively saving the world is exactly what Goku and others do in most sagas of the franchise. You are what you do. So Goku IS Earth protector regardless.

- And it doesn't matter when Gohan was planned to take over after Goku, the fact that it was planned and put into motion at all already proves my point about the direction of the character.

[NickLord]

Finding his courage WAS his character arc and expressing otherwise is projecting as far as I'm concerned. Gohan was never positioned to be Gokus successor until he was thrust into it in the Cell saga. He'll, even Toriyama himself said - he conceived him as a meek foil to Goku, it was Toei that misinterpreted all that and went all in on MINI GOKU. But Gohans arc was getting over his fear and fighting when he's needed. That was his central conflict, laid out most plainly when he got spooked by Nappa, ran away and received Piccolos harsh scolding. But he nutted up and fought with reckless abandon from then on, and further confirmed his growth by volunteering to go to Namek and even talking back to Chi-Chi.

His behavior in the Cell Games is actually a regression of his character - a justified one that's written well, but a regression nonetheless.

You're clearly making things up here because there's not a single Toriyama interview that backs up what you say.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Ahem

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/his ... -toriyama/

Akira Toriyama: “During the history of Dragon Ball, Gokū becomes a father and his first son, Son Gohan, is born. When I drew it, I think it was the first time that a Japanese boy’s manga magazine character got married and had children. I did it considering that it would be a good idea because nobody had done it before.

Anyway, I don’t quite remember the reason for Gohan’s appearance. The point is that when I was drawing my previous work, Dr. Slump, I got married and then had children, and it is possible that I unconsciously reflected that I had become a father of a family into my work.

When Gohan appeared I had no intention of making him a protagonist. Due to his studious nature, I had thought of making him scientific so that he would contrast with Gokū in all aspects.

Gohan was always intended to be a foil to his dad. Nothing more, nothing less. Tbh I think a lot of fans ideals of what kind of character Gohan should be is just informed by Toei trying to force Gohan as the main character of Z long before Toriyama thought about it. Even wanting to name the show after him.

At most Cell Games Gohan was a brief divergence when Toriyama was flirting with the idea of making Gohan the lead before changing his mind.

But Gohan growing up to just be dorkly scholar dad was alway in line with Toriyama’s vision.

He only said that he initially didn't intend for Gohan to be the protagonist when he was introduced. He obviously changed his during the Cell saga and this is no surprise since DB is a series that's written to be made up as it goes along and Toriyama constantly changes his mind on things last minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKw3ZiAfKNk

Most characters in DB are Goku's foil (Vegeta being the biggest one), yet they are wildly different from each other so that proves nothing. Goku also got married and had kids so how does that make him different from Gohan?

[MasenkoHA]

He only said that he initially didn't intend for Gohan to be the protagonist when he was introduced. He obviously changed his during the Cell saga and this is no surprise since DB is a series that's written to be made up as it goes along and Toriyama constantly changes his mind on things last minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKw3ZiAfKNk

You’re right and then he changed his mind again
because he decided Gohan as a main character didn’t work.

1. Here’s Goku’s kid. Unlike Goku, Gohan is studious, doesn’t like fighting, and is well mannered and educated

2. Hmm what if I made Gohan the main character in this martial arts story?

3. Actually nevermind


Gohan becoming the lead isn’t worked up to at all. It just happens. He spends most of the Cell saga shoved to the background. For the duration of the arc he’s no more important than Krillin. Toriyama tried it, decided it wasn’t working out.

. Goku also got married and had kids so how does that make him different from Gohan?

Goku- Bad mannered and informal speech , no formal education, loves martial arts and seeking stronger opponents

Gohan- Well mannered and talks very politely. Getting his education. Wants to be a great scholar.

[jjgp1112]

You're clearly making things up here because there's not a single Toriyama interview that backs up what you say.
https://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations ... interview/

Ahem

https://thedaoofdragonball.com/blog/his ... -toriyama/

Akira Toriyama: “During the history of Dragon Ball, Gokū becomes a father and his first son, Son Gohan, is born. When I drew it, I think it was the first time that a Japanese boy’s manga magazine character got married and had children. I did it considering that it would be a good idea because nobody had done it before.

Anyway, I don’t quite remember the reason for Gohan’s appearance. The point is that when I was drawing my previous work, Dr. Slump, I got married and then had children, and it is possible that I unconsciously reflected that I had become a father of a family into my work.

When Gohan appeared I had no intention of making him a protagonist. Due to his studious nature, I had thought of making him scientific so that he would contrast with Gokū in all aspects.

Gohan was always intended to be a foil to his dad. Nothing more, nothing less. Tbh I think a lot of fans ideals of what kind of character Gohan should be is just informed by Toei trying to force Gohan as the main character of Z long before Toriyama thought about it. Even wanting to name the show after him.

At most Cell Games Gohan was a brief divergence when Toriyama was flirting with the idea of making Gohan the lead before changing his mind.

But Gohan growing up to just be dorkly scholar dad was alway in line with Toriyama’s vision.

He only said that he initially didn't intend for Gohan to be the protagonist when he was introduced. He obviously changed his during the Cell saga and this is no surprise since DB is a series that's written to be made up as it goes along and Toriyama constantly changes his mind on things last minute. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKw3ZiAfKNk

Most characters in DB are Goku's foil (Vegeta being the biggest one), yet they are wildly different from each other so that proves nothing. Goku also got married and had kids so how does that make him different from Gohan?

Gokus obsessed with fighting while Gohan wants to go home and be a family man. That's a pretty big difference and exactly in line with what Toriyama conceived. He just changed his mind around Cell before realizing he preferred the original course.

[ABED]

That's it, we're done. It's one thing to disagree, but you are coming off as combative.

[NickLord]

snip

You've completely missed the point of my last line. If both Goku and Gohan got married and had kids then how does Gohan also doing that make him a foil when they both did the same thing?

[MetaMoss]

What seems to be consistently ignored here is that a lot of people like these characters that are being neglected/misused and actively want to see them in a role that involves more than just taking up space.

"They ARE being used in roles that are more than just taking up space."

If they were, then this discussion wouldn't be happening.

There are a lot of characters and a lot of fans all with their own favorites and preferences. No way to satisfy everyone. There would always be someone saying "these characters aren't being used well enough."

It's this right here, dismissing someone's criticism with a shrug and a "that sucks, buddy", that is part of what I mean about being uncharitable.

"Can't satisfy everybody" in relation to Dragon Ball should be said in a boardroom over at Shueisha or Toei, not in a forum of fans. It might as well be a non-statement, because yes, there definitely are people here that aren't satisfied, that's the core premise of this thread. And responding to that displeasure with an apparent attempt to debunk people's opinions really rubs me the wrong way, and I'm sure other folks here aren't fans of it, either.

Look, I think I understand that you're just trying to add your voice to the conversation, but I think the matter-of-fact way you express your opinions ends up making you come across way worse than you intend to.

And I am... definitely getting into mini-mod territory here, so I think I will leave it at that.

[MasenkoHA]

snip

You've completely missed the point of my last line. If both Goku and Gohan got married and had kids then how does Gohan also doing that make him a foil when they both did the same thing?

That is entirely irrelevant. That has absolutely nothing to do with their personality.

[ABED]

It's not being dismissive. What the hell do you want me to say to someone I fundamentally disagree with on this issue? That is in no way dismissive. It's how I feel. Someone feels like Gotenks is underutilized, I think he's overutilized. Someone else thinks Gohan didn't get enough of the spotlight, I think he got too much. Some think the focus on the Saiyans ruined the show, I think it's untrue. I understand where people are coming from when they want to see more from characters like Kuririn and Bulma and Tenshinhan, but I don't think focus on the Saiyans is the culprit.

All you've said in your post is "your response to their displeasure is not everyone agrees" as if everyone is of one mind. Yes, for some, their favorites don't get enough focus, for others, they get plenty, and others yet, they get too much.

"Can't satisfy everybody" is a simple fact of life that should be understood by everyone.

that is part of what I mean about being uncharitable.

You still haven't told me what you mean? Do you want me to listen to people's differing opinions? I have. Do you want me to be polite in disagreement? I believe I have been. What are you looking for?

[NickLord]

snip

You've completely missed the point of my last line. If both Goku and Gohan got married and had kids then how does Gohan also doing that make him a foil when they both did the same thing?

That is entirely irrelevant. That has absolutely nothing to do with their personality.

Toriyama in that interview you posted mentioned Gohan getting married and having kids as if that somehow made him different from Goku even though Goku did the same thing lol.

[MasenkoHA]

You've completely missed the point of my last line. If both Goku and Gohan got married and had kids then how does Gohan also doing that make him a foil when they both did the same thing?

That is entirely irrelevant. That has absolutely nothing to do with their personality.

Toriyama in that interview you posted mentioned Gohan getting married and having kids as if that somehow made him different from Goku even though Goku did the same thing lol.

What? No he didn’t. Toriyama talked about HIMSELF getting married and having kids and that being what influenced his decision to make Goku a father.

[Cursed Lemon]

Gohan is a fictional character whose personality can be whatever the writer wants it to be.

He very clearly has the precedent set to be a family man or a fighter.

It makes no sense to not have him be a fighter unless you believe his mere presence to be a detriment to the story.

[Pafupafu]

Different strokes for different folks.

One thing I think could be overlooked is that when side characters get their own episode or spotlight moment, it does help elevate the A-story moments with Goku / Vegeta in importance. Sometimes less is more.

I think my biggest gripe with the “Saiyan” focus of the story is that so many new characters are tied to that culture/history. I’m looking forward to Super Hero introducing new characters with no Saiyan history (I think?).

[ABED]

I'm fine with focusing on the Saiyans that have been around for years, but I'm not into DB delving into the history of the Saiyans anymore. Been there done that.

The thing I don't like about what I'm hearing regarding Super Hero is it's yet another Red Ribbon connection. That's also been done. That thread was tied years ago.

[MasenkoHA]

The thing I don't like about what I'm hearing regarding Super Hero is it's yet another Red Ribbon connection. That's also been done. That thread was tied years ago.

You could even say that ribbon was tied.