Has the focus on Saiyan in the series ruined the entire franchise?

[JulieYBM]

The thing I don't like about what I'm hearing regarding Super Hero is it's yet another Red Ribbon connection. That's also been done. That thread was tied years ago.

You could even say that ribbon was tied.

Way to a bow on it with that fun ribbon pun.

[jjgp1112]

snip

You've completely missed the point of my last line. If both Goku and Gohan got married and had kids then how does Gohan also doing that make him a foil when they both did the same thing?

You're being overly pedantic here. Getting married and having a family is such a generic character action that you might as well say Gohan isn't a foil to Goku because he has spiky hair and puts on clothes, too.

He's a foil to Goku because his personality, goals, and choice of lifestyle are diametrically opposed to Goku's philosophy.

Either that, or you've wildly misread the interview going off your reply to ABED. Toriyama brought up having a family of his own to explain why he gave Goku a son to begin with, not using THAT as what made Gohan a foil.

[FoolsGil]

I don't think the focus on Saiyans ruined the franchise. I'm not even necessarily against the power creep that happened in the series. But I feel if Toriyama would have zigged instead of zagged, everyone could have gone home happy at the end of the day. Dragonball was already a hit when Raditz came around. Ensuring the legacy characters had some shine here and there wasn't going to hurt anyone's paycheck, Toei's, nor Toriyama's.

[NickLord]

Gohan is a fictional character whose personality can be whatever the writer wants it to be.

He very clearly has the precedent set to be a family man or a fighter.

It makes no sense to not have him be a fighter unless you believe his mere presence to be a detriment to the story.

Exactly. There's zero point in investing so much into a character if that investment is never gonna pay off.

[ABED]

There was a payoff to the story. He starts off as a weak sheltered crybaby and ends as a strong brave warrior.

[Majin Buu]

And then it's paid off again when he becomes the strongest and defeats the latest arc villain.

[ABED]

And then it's paid off again when he becomes the strongest and defeats the latest arc villain.

Yes, stories and jokes can have multiple payoffs to the same set up.

[jjgp1112]

His Buu saga character arc had the right ending, but the path to there was a pile of horseshit - but just in terms of the outline, it tracks.

Gohan's my favorite character. But I don't need him to be the hero.

[ABED]

If a long term story isn't working as you'd hoped, you don't keep going just so you can stick with the plan (the intended payoff). Payoffs are about catharsis.

[NickLord]

If a long term story isn't working as you'd hoped, you don't keep going just so you can stick with the plan (the intended payoff). Payoffs are about catharsis.

And Gohan's Post-Cell largely fails.

[ABED]

If a long term story isn't working as you'd hoped, you don't keep going just so you can stick with the plan (the intended payoff). Payoffs are about catharsis.

And Gohan's Post-Cell largely fails.

Better than if they kept going down the path that wasn't working.

[jjgp1112]

If a long term story isn't working as you'd hoped, you don't keep going just so you can stick with the plan (the intended payoff). Payoffs are about catharsis.

My problem is that yhe way Toriyama got to that conclusion sucked - like if he had Gohan fail and we saw how that actually affected him and caused him to make the decision to just stick to studying, then yeah, it's perfect. But he lost and was tossed to the side and discarded as a character, then ten years later ih yeah he's a scholar. It's slapdash execution of a solid concept.

[ABED]

If a long term story isn't working as you'd hoped, you don't keep going just so you can stick with the plan (the intended payoff). Payoffs are about catharsis.

My problem is that yhe way Toriyama got to that conclusion sucked - like if he had Gohan fail and we saw how that actually affected him and caused him to make the decision to just stick to studying, then yeah, it's perfect. But he lost and was tossed to the side and discarded as a character, then ten years later ih yeah he's a scholar. It's slapdash execution of a solid concept.

And that's fair

[Majin Buu]

If a long term story isn't working as you'd hoped, you don't keep going just so you can stick with the plan (the intended payoff). Payoffs are about catharsis.

My problem is that yhe way Toriyama got to that conclusion sucked - like if he had Gohan fail and we saw how that actually affected him and caused him to make the decision to just stick to studying, then yeah, it's perfect. But he lost and was tossed to the side and discarded as a character, then ten years later ih yeah he's a scholar. It's slapdash execution of a solid concept.

And that's fair

I agree, that's a fair criticism.

Gohan's usage in the Buu arc has never bothered me personally since all the payoff I wanted with him had already happened in the Saiyan and Cell arcs; but I can agree that Toriyama should have given him some kind of noteworthy send off (that doesn't involve rehashing the end of the Cell arc).

Hell, Gotenks got a more noteworthy send off than he did.

[Toxin45]

Gohan was always ment k be the opposite of his dad and he became a scholar and family man

[DBZAOTA482]

The focus on Saiyans didn't ruin the franchise. The power creeps did.

[Kakarotto92]

"Has the part of the story that actually made Dragon Ball the world's most popular anime series, ruined the entire franchise?"

It may have ruined it for you and the "OGee DeeBee is much better than Zee" types that hate Z just because it's more popular.

Saiyans have been the focus in the series not only for more than half of the entire manga, but also its more popular half.

As someone who likes ALL of Dragon Ball, doesn't compare the "two series", and thinks the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd TB arcs are peak Dragon Ball (along with the Saiyan and Namek arcs), I think it's obvious that had the DB manga ended before the Saiyan arc, most people in the West would probably had never even heard of Dragon Ball. I guess it'd still be kinda popular in Japan during its airing, but less popular than the likes of Saint Seiya or others in the West. Just check the ratings during the Namek arc on japanese TV back when it first aired (it's on Kanzenshuu's website). No matter what bitter OG DB fanboys may think of these arcs, it was the Saiyan, Namek and Cell arcs that made DB such a hit.

Without these three arcs, most western DB fans would never had heard of pre-Saiyan arc DB.

That isn't to say I think this "focus on Saiyans" is what made the series increase in popularity (I'm a huge Piccolo fan and I'm sure he helped a lot in the show's popularity too), but it just happened to be in that part of the story that the series became a hit.

So claiming that something which happened throughout the peak of the series "ruined" that same series is nonsense.

[Anonymous Friend]

I like all of Dragonball and am in the "OGee DeeBee is much better than Zee" camp having re-watched Z more times than OG.

The series is about Goku and Goku is a saiyan. The series is about a saiyan.

[MasenkoHA]

As someone who likes ALL of Dragon Ball, doesn't compare the "two series", and thinks the Piccolo Daimao and 23rd TB arcs are peak Dragon Ball (along with the Saiyan and Namek arcs), I think it's obvious that had the DB manga ended before the Saiyan arc, most people in the West would probably had never even heard of Dragon Ball.

Latin American countries, which is part of “The West” showed all of Dragon Ball before Z. Z may have been more popular but saying without it people would have never heard of Dragon Ball seems pretty clueless.

I guess it'd still be kinda popular in Japan during its airing,

It was very popular in Japan during its airing.

Just check the ratings during the Namek arc on japanese TV back when it first aired (it's on Kanzenshuu's website). No matter what bitter OG DB fanboys may think of these arcs, it was the Saiyan, Namek and Cell arcs that made DB such a hit.

Son Goku arc average viewership ratings: 25 percent

21st Tenkaichi Budokai average viewership ratings: 22 percent

Red Ribbon arc average viewership rating 24.8 percent

Saiyan arc average viewership rating: 18.6 percent

Namek arc average viewership rating:21.7 percent

Cell arc: 20.3 percent


Sorry chief, the numbers don’t back up your claim. Not only was Dragon Ball a hit from the word go it pulled better viewership ratings in its first half than all of Z.

I’m not denying Z is more popular and globally recognized but you’re just 1000 percent wrong on saying Saiyan, Namek, and Freeza made the series popular

Without these three arcs, most western DB fans would never had heard of pre-Saiyan arc DB.

They almost definitely would have

[DBZAOTA482]

If OG Dragon Ball wasn't popular, there wouldn't be a DBZ at all.