Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

There is that little snafu in the manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta beats the sh*t outta Super Saiyan Goku Black who was explicitly stronger than Future Trunks whose SS2 was as strong as SS3 Goku.

And given how media have continued to portray Goku and Vegeta in the exact same forms as being neck and neck, this is either a major inconsistency or gives insight into how strong Goku and Vegeta actually are in the manga.

It's really inconsistent. Even if we chalk it up to Vegeta using his "enraged" SS2 from BoG (which indeed did surpass Goku's SS3), he still should only be comparable to Base Black. He'd need to be well over 50x stronger than Goku's SS3 to match SS Black, if multipliers are still applicable.

Ironically, it could have been easily solved by a) doing like the anime and having Black not turn regular Super Saiyan; or b) have it so it's Black's Super Saiyan form that is stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku.

[Skar]

Toyo screwed up. It's not the first time he does it.

Besides my Commeson comment was obviously for the anime. I didn't even talk about the manga until you brought it up.

Is there anything in the manga that conflicts with Trunks only being above Cell Games Gohan in SSJ2? I think that's the only way to claim he screwed up with this line.

[picc]

There is that little snafu in the manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta beats the sh*t outta Super Saiyan Goku Black who was explicitly stronger than Future Trunks whose SS2 was as strong as SS3 Goku.

And given how media have continued to portray Goku and Vegeta in the exact same forms as being neck and neck, this is either a major inconsistency or gives insight into how strong Goku and Vegeta actually are in the manga.

Yeah this was a scale killer. I just swallowed it and assumed since Goku achieved SSJ3 he never put effort into developing his SSJ2. While Vegeta never achieved SSJ3 so just trained his ass off in SSJ2 and caught up, similar to Trunks.

Why do we think Kaioshin was MSSJ1 level though? IIRC, all the information we got was that he's stronger than Namek full power Freeza, and weaker than buu saga SSJ Goku. There is a lot of room in-between there, and most of it is below Cell saga Goku.

edit: just saw it was base black that was stronger than ssj2 trunks. If this is true, that does indeed annihilate any scaling.

[Thani]

Toyo screwed up. It's not the first time he does it.

Besides my Commeson comment was obviously for the anime. I didn't even talk about the manga until you brought it up.

Is there anything in the manga that conflicts with Trunks only being above Cell Games Gohan in SSJ2? I think that's the only way to claim he screwed up with this line.

Nothing at all. He DOES have a more powerful SS2 state akin to Vegeta's "my Bulma" moment. But that only puts him on SS3 Goku's league.

There is that little snafu in the manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta beats the sh*t outta Super Saiyan Goku Black who was explicitly stronger than Future Trunks whose SS2 was as strong as SS3 Goku.

And given how media have continued to portray Goku and Vegeta in the exact same forms as being neck and neck, this is either a major inconsistency or gives insight into how strong Goku and Vegeta actually are in the manga.

Yeah this was a scale killer. I just swallowed it and assumed since Goku achieved SSJ3 he never put effort into developing his SSJ2. While Vegeta never achieved SSJ3 so just trained his ass off in SSJ2 and caught up, similar to Trunks.

Why do we think Kaioshin was MSSJ1 level though? IIRC, all the information we got was that he's stronger than Namek full power Freeza, and weaker than buu saga SSJ Goku. There is a lot of room in-between there, and most of it is below Cell saga Goku.

I guess it's because he could hold SS2 Gohan down with his magic while straining himself.

What's weird to me is that the other Supreme Kais are being treated at being on his level.... when, really, Shin is rightly the WEAKEST of them. He's not even a proper Kaioshin, he never finished his training and it still shows.

[Koitsukai]

There is that little snafu in the manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta beats the sh*t outta Super Saiyan Goku Black who was explicitly stronger than Future Trunks whose SS2 was as strong as SS3 Goku.

And given how media have continued to portray Goku and Vegeta in the exact same forms as being neck and neck, this is either a major inconsistency or gives insight into how strong Goku and Vegeta actually are in the manga.

It was always odd to me, because there was never a hint at Vegeta being that much ahead of Goku. I guess the only explanation is that Geets has mastered SS2 to a point where it is that much stronger than Goku's SS3. Like, it literally shits on it, that's also something the narrative is not trying to hide.
Ever since BoG, SS2 Vegeta leads against a form Goku hasn't mastered or used a lot, so I think I can buy him getting more distance between those after he entered the god realm.

Also, perhaps Black is not getting the full power out of the SS transformation, thus not being that much stronger than in his base form. IIRC, there was a mention of something like that going on with Black, there's also a line from Trunks saying Black's SS was now stronger. This way, the gap between Goku and Vegeta doesn't have to be huge. To be fair, in BoG, Vegeta was doing much better than SS3 Goku, he was already quite ahead, so maybe Black can fit in base and as SS between them, if he was only grasping SS at that time.



SS2 Trunks 10
SS3 Goku 10
Base Black(introduction) 12
Base Black (vs Vegeta) 14
SS Black 20
SS2 Vegeta 22

If Black was using SS at its fullest, then Vegeta is that much stronger than SS3 Goku, that is 50x or 10x stronger (Toyo might be following the 10x multiplier for SS, based on his take on SSB). And Ikari Broly being 10x stronger than this form of Vegeta, would make SSG a form that twenty-folds SS3.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I always took the scene of SS Vegeta vs. SS Black to be akin to Vegeta showing Future Trunks exactly how strong him and Goku actually are when they decide to use the full extent of their power.

Ironically enough, this kind of scaling for Vegeta actually fits fairly closely with the anime version, with base Goku/Vegeta being at/above the old standard of SS 1-3 in their base forms.

[ZombieVito]

I always took the scene of SS Vegeta vs. SS Black to be akin to Vegeta showing Future Trunks exactly how strong him and Goku actually are when they decide to use the full extent of their power.

Ironically enough, this kind of scaling for Vegeta actually fits fairly closely with the anime version, with base Goku/Vegeta being at/above the old standard of SS 1-3 in their base forms.

But that would defeat the whole purpose of Goku using SSG against Trunks.

[TheSaiyanGod]

While I do think that the whole Vegeta-Black-Goku-Trunks power scaling early in the arc is quite head scratching, Vegeta being stronger than Goku using specific transformations seems to be the point rather than the outlier. Not only his SSJ2 proved to be stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the FT arc, but his SSBE form post-Yardrat training was also said to be stronger than Ultra Instinct Omen, even though in both instances their base forms were equal.

So I think it's more a case of him powering up certain transformations beyond its limits (just like SSJ2 Trunks matching SSJ3 Goku). Although it's hard to fit the "super strong base forms" idea here anyway

[Hugo Boss]

As far as I remember in the manga Goku only wasn’t as affected as Kaioshins by Rumshi’s warcry because his strength was rivaling some of the gods of destruction, who were still paralyzed, even Beerus and Quitela. The angels were the only ones that seemingly didn’t feel anything. That wasn’t because his base level was stronger than Kaioshin, but because his inner strength is comparable to a god of destruction’s.

The first time their base level seemingly upgraded to a whole new level was when Vegeta used his spirit control training to fight Yuzun and when Goku trained with Merus. Even then it’s difficult to quantify, because Yuzun is merely a Zarbon’s doppelgänger who was juiced by Moro’s stealed energy.

This has never made sense to me. Goku doesn't have access to any power he wields when he transforms in base. If he didn't get knocked out with the roar then it's because his base power was strong enough to resist it.

I’m not implying he is doing that, but I’m not seeing how his base power would be that strong when even gods of destruction felt the same effect that Goku did. Like wtf, SS3 level and below probably would have fainted; SSG~God of Destruction range would feel paralysis; Angel level no effect at all. That’s what the scene implies to me.

Also, perhaps Black is not getting the full power out of the SS transformation, thus not being that much stronger than in his base form. IIRC, there was a mention of something like that going on with Black, there's also a line from Trunks saying Black's SS was now stronger. This way, the gap between Goku and Vegeta doesn't have to be huge. To be fair, in BoG, Vegeta was doing much better than SS3 Goku, he was already quite ahead, so maybe Black can fit in base and as SS between them, if he was only grasping SS at that time.

Exactly. Black’s Super Saiyan form was gradually drawing out its power and it reached a point where it could compete with Vegeta’s Super Saiyan Blue form. So, there is no need to assume SS2 Vegeta is that far above SS3 Goku.

[Skar]

Nothing at all. He DOES have a more powerful SS2 state akin to Vegeta's "my Bulma" moment. But that only puts him on SS3 Goku's league.

That's what I was thinking. Not every detail is going to line up perfectly and there would always be some inconsistencies or unintentional implications especially with more writers involved. I think a direct statement is intentional by the author otherwise they wouldn't have the character say it.

I hope we get something like that in Super Hero. It's not something really necessary but Toriyama used to do that a lot in the original manga. I'm curious if Piccolo and Gohan will be strong as implied by the anime and manga or if Toriyama had something else in mind.

[ZombieVito]

As far as I remember in the manga Goku only wasn’t as affected as Kaioshins by Rumshi’s warcry because his strength was rivaling some of the gods of destruction, who were still paralyzed, even Beerus and Quitela. The angels were the only ones that seemingly didn’t feel anything. That wasn’t because his base level was stronger than Kaioshin, but because his inner strength is comparable to a god of destruction’s.

The first time their base level seemingly upgraded to a whole new level was when Vegeta used his spirit control training to fight Yuzun and when Goku trained with Merus. Even then it’s difficult to quantify, because Yuzun is merely a Zarbon’s doppelgänger who was juiced by Moro’s stealed energy.

This has never made sense to me. Goku doesn't have access to any power he wields when he transforms in base. If he didn't get knocked out with the roar then it's because his base power was strong enough to resist it.

I’m not implying he is doing that, but I’m not seeing how his base power would be that strong when even gods of destruction felt the same effect that Goku did. Like wtf, SS3 level and below probably would have fainted; SSG~God of Destruction range would feel paralysis; Angel level no effect at all. That’s what the scene implies to me.

Also, perhaps Black is not getting the full power out of the SS transformation, thus not being that much stronger than in his base form. IIRC, there was a mention of something like that going on with Black, there's also a line from Trunks saying Black's SS was now stronger. This way, the gap between Goku and Vegeta doesn't have to be huge. To be fair, in BoG, Vegeta was doing much better than SS3 Goku, he was already quite ahead, so maybe Black can fit in base and as SS between them, if he was only grasping SS at that time.

Exactly. Black’s Super Saiyan form was gradually drawing out its power and it reached a point where it could compete with Vegeta’s Super Saiyan Blue form. So, there is no need to assume SS2 Vegeta is that far above SS3 Goku.

The GoD's were far closer to the roar than Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

The GoD's were far closer to the roar than Goku.

Are we really going to this level of pedantism?

I prefer to stick with Whis’ explanation. The beings who are considered below the level of a god faint, the ones at the level of a god freeze, and the ones above are unaffected. If the distance was an important factor to justify how Goku kept on his feet, this would probably be commented.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah I can’t possibly see Goku and Vegeta’s lower forms not improving much. Whis says Goku and Vegeta need to train in their lower forms to really improve, so it’s not like Z where the bulk of their power ups was coming from new forms. Even before Whis’ training Goku and Vegeta were crazy strong, stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

I have no idea about the manga though. I don’t see why RoF would be any different, and SSJ1 Goku actually presses Hit who defeated 10% SSJB Vegeta, but who knows. Some crazy stuff happens in the Black Saga though. SSJ2 Vegeta beating SSJ Black is explainable, but SSJB Vegeta going from around Post Zenkai SSJ Black to clowning SSJR Black is nuts.

Are we really going to this level of pedantism?

I prefer to stick with Whis’ explanation. The beings who are considered below the level of a god faint, the ones at the level of a god freeze, and the ones above are unaffected. If the distance was an important factor to justify how Goku kept on his feet, this would probably be commented.

It’s just common sense bro. If I’m a block away from a show I’m not getting the earache people in the show are getting. I wouldn’t say Base Goku is at the level of a god though, unless we’re being really loose about the term.

[ZombieVito]

The GoD's were far closer to the roar than Goku.

Are we really going to this level of pedantism?

I prefer to stick with Whis’ explanation. The beings who are considered below the level of a god faint, the ones at the level of a god freeze, and the ones above are unaffected. If the distance was an important factor to justify how Goku kept on his feet, this would probably be commented.

So base Goku is god level then.

[Skar]

I checked the manga ToP and Freeza only confirms that Caulifa was stronger than Namek SSJ Goku after she powered up in SSJ1. He was beating her up in base before and didn't mention anything about her power. I think that fits with base Cabba being close to base Vegeta in the Champa arc without Cabba needing to be God tier. BoG confirmed base wasn't as inflated as some fans assumed since they had multiple transformations. It's possible their base is way stronger but I wouldn't say it's necessary since they have even more transformations now. I'm not sure if there's any evidence how much stronger SSJG is in the Champa or ToP arcs compared to BoG. Stronger because those are later arcs but I don't think anything to confirm it's tens or hundreds of times stronger.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think it's that complicated, Goku's base is above Shin, who we don't even know where he is at.
Comfortably above Namek Freeza, maybe above Piccolo (one might argue Kami was frozen at the sight of the highest god, not shitscared for being outpowered), already below SS Goku, he stepped down when Goku aimed at him.

Post second ROSAT SS could very well be the realm Shin falls into. Goku being as strong as he was as a SS in Z, prior to the ToP sounds right to me. And his SS2 being way above Gohan's vs Cell, the arc before that, was also pretty much implied.

Nothing as ludicrous as one shotting Z in base ever since the U6 arc.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s just common sense bro. If I’m a block away from a show I’m not getting the earache people in the show are getting. I wouldn’t say Base Goku is at the level of a god though, unless we’re being really loose about the term.

I would like to just point out that we are discussing a fictional work, where “common sense” may not apply, specially in a fight between absurdly strong people. I think people read way too much into that scene and forget the simple explanation that Whis gives (God level -: faint; God level: freeze; God level +: no effect).

And this is really not the first time Base Goku is not blown away by shockwaves generated by stronger (in thesis) characters, but that he surpass with his Super Saiyan forms. Who doesn’t remember when SS Goten and SS Trunks powered-up at a furious rate in front of Base Goku and Piccolo and the only affected by the shockwave was Piccolo? I don’t remember anyone claiming that Base Goku was stronger than Piccolo back then. At a later portion, Gohan used the same kind of power-up and Goku was blown away, that’s because Gohan was equal or stronger than his SS3 level at the time.

Goku being as strong as he was as a SS in Z, prior to the ToP sounds right to me. And his SS2 being way above Gohan's vs Cell, the arc before that, was also pretty much implied.

Assuming DBS Base Goku is the same range of Boo Arc SS1 Goku, we would have a DBS SS Goku far stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan already. Despite that, it’s only when Goku and Trunks use SS2 that they are implied to be stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan. Then, DBS SS Goku in the manga is probably not stronger than Cell Arc SS2 Gohan, right? Best case scenario, DBS SS Goku is as strong as Cell Arc SS2 Gohan, so that would make DBS Base Goku only twice as strong as Cell Arc Base Gohan.

For DBS Base Goku to be stronger Shin in this scenario, Shin and everyone stated to be below his strength and above Boo Arc Base Saiyan would have to be crammed together. Anyway, if the implications are meant to be taken at face value and we don’t mess with the official multipliers, DBS Base Goku (I mean the one that fight Future Trunks) is highballing twice as strong as DBZ Base Goku. If you are not dead set on this logic though anything is possible.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I would like to just point out that we are discussing a fictional work, where “common sense” may not apply, specially in a fight between absurdly strong people. I think people read way too much into that scene and forget the simple explanation that Whis gives (God level -: faint; God level: freeze; God level +: no effect).

And this is really not the first time Base Goku is not blown away by shockwaves generated by stronger (in thesis) characters, but that he surpass with his Super Saiyan forms. Who doesn’t remember when SS Goten and SS Trunks powered-up at a furious rate in front of Base Goku and Piccolo and the only affected by the shockwave was Piccolo? I don’t remember anyone claiming that Base Goku was stronger than Piccolo back then. At a later portion, Gohan used the same kind of power-up and Goku was blown away, that’s because Gohan was equal or stronger than his SS3 level at the time.

It's something so basic though. We know being far from a Ki makes it harder to sense it, I don't see why sound would be any different when it's literally how it's supposed to work.

Did Goten and Trunks even create shockwaves? I always thought Piccolo was startled, not literally blown away. There's nothing in the panels indicating a Ki storm or anything, just their flared up auras.

[TobyS]

Yeah Black vs SS2 but greater than SS3 and Trunks improved two makes no sense.~

I can buy blacks ss not being a full 50x as a quirk of his whole weird zenkai-to-access-the-power-this-body-already-had thing so he's only just in the realms of SS power. So I guess he's just Trunks SS2 mastery plus my Bulma rage kinda makes it work sorta... But I accept it was a bit of a power scaling mistake.

Regarding Shin. I refuse to believe that was a Goku VS Shin powerscaling feat and less "look how loud the elephant is and haha shin sucks look at him fall on his face" moment. His hearing and senses could be better and make him more vulnerable perhaps.

He is stronger than Kamiccolo plus 7 years of training who wasn't far behind Cell Games Trunks and Vegeta, I don't see the need to wank the base saiyans that much.

[Hugo Boss]

It's something so basic though. We know being far from a Ki makes it harder to sense it, I don't see why sound would be any different when it's literally how it's supposed to work.

Did Goten and Trunks even create shockwaves? I always thought Piccolo was startled, not literally blown away. There's nothing in the panels indicating a Ki storm or anything, just their flared up auras.

I’m not disputing that notion, but I’m not seeing how it has any relevance to what Goku managed there. Whis says even the gods of destruction are barely standing, so he lumps Goku together with them. He doesn’t say Goku is hanging there because he is further than Rumshi than Beerus is, for example. I mean, it would make sense to use this notion as a justification, but Whis doesn’t use it. His silence also tell us this. It’s later reinforced when Goku shows SSG, that his level is close to them.

That’s the reading I extracted from the scene, if someone wants to scrutinize every little piece of reaction and technical aspect of how a shockwave is supposed to be designed feel free to disagree.