Dragon Ball Super: Manga Chapter 83 - Official Discussion Thread

[TKA]

Presumably, even if Monaito would have thought of making Bardock stronger in exchange of some of his lifespan, Bardock would have still refused the wish, thus the outcome would have been the same.

We shouldn't have to presume anything. The narrative should be able to explain that.

This wouldn't be an issue if this plot point that recontextualizes the entirety of the series wasn't introduced.

Because Monaito knows the dragon operates under monkey paw logic and wouldn't want to reward his savior with a shortened lifespan. He specifically states in this very chapter that using the dragon for selfish needs would have brought about their doom and that it's a good thing Bardock refused to partake in it.

Arc sucks but now we're just looking for reasons to hate it.

Sorry, bud, but none of this makes sense. Nothing about this dragon implies it is a bastard genie who looks for loopholes to screw you over with. It specifically told Granolah the conditions for his power boost. It would've done the same with Monaito. Wishing Bardock to be more powerful and wishing Bardock to be sent home to his home planet are the same sentiment, so no selfishness there either.

And I don't need to look for reasons to hate this arc. I've stated, at least once per month for the past year why this arc is garbo. I prefaced this by saying it's minor. It's a minor quibble that shouldn't exist in the first place because the very premise of this arc relies on this highly dubious plot point of dragons being able to invalidate the entire series by just making people strong.

Boy, it sure is lucky that Gas' people are just as long-lived as Cerealians. And we still don't know the lifespan of either species.

What a shitshow.

[Marz]

The answer to all your questions is "Because nobody had ever made wishes like that before". Ergo, the story had never introduced ideas like that. The story has now introduced the notion that you can simply wish to be the strongest. I won't question why people in the past didn't wish to be strong, but going forward I will now question why characters aren't making that wish.

The consequence of losing the Champa tournament is literally having the Earth moved (even if it happens after the original run, using your logic it would reatroactively ruin the whole Saiyan saga). One of the key moments in the climax of the Freeza arc is when all the people on Namek are teleported to Earth via Porunga (that's even BEFORE Buu). And Zamasu was in possession of the most powerful DBs which, as far as we know, have no limits. So yeah, what you said is bullshit.

And again, even if none of the wishes I mentioned were thought of in the original manga, you being able to question the characters' decisions within the narrative doesn't make the story broken.

That's all there is to say about your nitipick, really. It doesn't make sense even if you don't like Granolah's wish

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

This chapter just got me thinking of something. If someone does a wish for someone else's benefit, does the dragon always have to get permission from that person? Has that always been a thing? I remember something similar happening during the end of the Freeza arc.

If that's always been the case, then Broly should've been annhilated by Gogeta's Kamehameha at the end of the last film cause there was no way Shenron had the time to ask for Broly's permission to be sent back to Vampa during that split-second moment.

[super michael]

So Gas removed Bardock tail, but didn't Bardock have his tail in the Broly movie and on Namek when Freeza had his flash back of Bardock? Wouldn't that be a huge contradiction.

Adult Goku, Vegeta and Gohan didn't gain their tail back. There was no indication of his tail growing back.

So just because, that is the reason Bardock got stronger, without training or transformation.

[TKA]

And again, even if none of the wishes I mentioned were thought of in the original manga, you being able to question the characters' decisions within the narrative doesn't make the story broken.

You fundamentally don't understand the problem. Which is fine. But I'll explain it again.

Being a viewer and going "why doesn't X character make this wish that I thought of" is a bad way to analyze or critique any series. Characters are people and can make bad decisions. That's fine. If I say "why doesn't Roshi just wish for a meteor to hit the saiyans' ship in space," I'm just making up fanfiction. The story never presents that as an option, so why would I assume it is?

Your Zamas example is this. If you think Zamas would wish all the mortals dead, then you don't understand his character. He wants to kill all the mortals himself and gave himself the power to do so by taking Goku's body.

The issue at play is now that this type of wish has been introduced, it's not simply a reader making up fanfiction anymore. The story has now introduced the idea that you can wish to become stronger and invalidate all the central theme of the story up until now. So from the point of that wish being made until the franchise has died, the question will always be "Why don't they just wish themselves stronger?"

Now back to the Zamas example. If the Zamas arc came AFTER this one, I would question why he didn't simply wish himself stronger instead of going through the rigamarole of taking Goku's body. Nothing in Zamas' character shows he enjoys being in the body of a mortal. His character is he would take the body for the power it has.

Again, Toriyama, as haphazardly as he wrote the series, always made sure to attempt to explain away stuff like this. Even the rule that the dragon can only bring back someone from the dead once was only introduced as a way to keep people from going "Why should we care about characters dying when the dragon can just bring them back?"

If there's a downside beyond some ethereal, unexplained concept of trading your lifespan (whatever the fuck that means) for power, we sure haven't seen it.

[Nistarkail]

Minor thing here

But why didn't Monaito just wish for Bardock to be the strongest in the universe? If he could just dig deep to beat Gas, that means the gulf in their power wasn't that great. One wish and it would've solved everything.

And this, friends, is why I said many months ago that this plot point breaks the story.

Because Monaito knows the dragon operates under monkey paw logic and wouldn't want to reward his savior with a shortened lifespan. He specifically states in this very chapter that using the dragon for selfish needs would have brought about their doom and that it's a good thing Bardock refused to partake in it.

Arc sucks but now we're just looking for reasons to hate it.

Yes, and Toronbo cannot go beyond its powers. The dragon makes people stronger condensing their life spirit at the maximum point but not beyond. Granolah managed to became the no. 1 because his lifespan and potential were longer than most of U7 races. And Gas, who has the appearance of a Santa Claus elf even after the flashback, has surely a longer life too.

[PurestEvil]

So Gas removed Bardock tail, but didn't Bardock have his tail in the Broly movie and on Namek when Freeza had his flash back of Bardock? Wouldn't that be a huge contradiction.

Adult Goku, Vegeta and Gohan didn't gain their tail back. There was no indication of his tail growing back.

So just because, that is the reason Bardock got stronger, without training or transformation.

I mean, Bardock's tail evidently did grow back; rather, it were Vegeta and Gohan's tails that should have grown back, but they didn't for plot convenience.

[PurestEvil]

This chapter just got me thinking of something. If someone does a wish for someone else's benefit, does the dragon always have to get permission from that person? Has that always been a thing? I remember something similar happening during the end of the Freeza arc.

If that's always been the case, then Broly should've been annhilated by Gogeta's Kamehameha at the end of the last film cause there was no way Shenron had the time to ask for Broly's permission to be sent back to Vampa during that split-second moment.

Perhaps Shenron in that instant found that Broly felt like not being killed and was willing to accept having his live saved by any means.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Nah, you're making stuff up. His power wasn't anything remarkable before.

Elec says different - Granolah has become "crazy strong", and it's not inconceivable he could challenge present-day Gas before long. How strong is that? Great question. But apparently very remarkable, or it wouldn't be specifically mentioned as something remarkable - Gas naturally has the capacity to be stronger than Freeza, according to Elec, and he doesn't rule out the idea that Gas might've beaten a Granolah who's definitively stronger than Freeza...and Elec actually knows Freeza quite well, even down to the fact that he's now much stronger than he used to be (so the referential context shifts accordingly - we're not talking Saiyan grunts and powerless nobodies as Elec's frame of reference, here). This is simply what the story told us. They're both meant to be a pretty big deal in the scheme of things. Bardock is not.

What's granolah's actual lifespan? Also will never be told to us.

We were told what we needed to know by the story - the answer is that the natural Cerealian lifespan is approximately 200 years. Granolah is around 50 years old, and he uses up his whole lifespan except for 3 years. That is clearly what the story intends us to understand as the answer, given that it troubles to put the figures in dialogue.

Now, I'll grant that Granolah could conceivably have a heart attack and die at 60, or something, but unless one is deliberately employing some seriously hostile reading to obfuscate matters, it seems clear that this isn't what the story's intent is. We're obviously meant to understand that Granolah has given up around 150 years of his life to condense all that hypothetical future power within his actual present self. That's the plain, common-sense reading of Chapter 70.

The Saiyans seem to live pretty long,

From what we know, they don't, particularly. Toriyama has told us that their theoretical lifespan is somewhat longer than the natural Human lifespan - but not much, as they stay in their physical prime longer, but deteriorate quickly in old age. So, their natural lifespans are not even nearly as long as Cerealians. Or, indeed, the Heeters, since Gas is still a child 40ish years on, and the others have also barely aged. So, it's clear from authorial statements that Bardock simply doesn't have anything like Granolah's natural lifespan to play with in making such a wish.

So, on the one hand you have a guy who's "crazy strong" to a guy who knows people like present-day Freeza and Gas, with a natural lifespan of around 200 years to use up. To his wish, Toronbo says "no, unless you use up almost all your lifespan". On the other, you have a guy who's not known to be remarkable even when compared with members of his own species, with a much shorter natural lifespan. How is the Dragon going to say anything other than just "nope" to the same wish? This is simply the obvious conclusion to draw from what we've been explicitly told both in and out of the story. So far as I can see, one doesn't have to "make stuff up" to get there.

so you're telling me the dragon can't make Bardock at least stronger than a guy this close to him in power already?

With respect, you specified "make Bardock the strongest in the universe" as the wish in question. Not "make Bardock stronger than Gas". Those are not at all the same, and I addressed the question you actually posed, rather than anything else.

But even so (and here is some conjecture, because we lack sufficient data at this time to say with confidence), it's entirely conceivable that it would still not have been possible for Toronbo to grant even that lesser wish, given the limits Bardock had at the beginning of the fight, compared to how he was at the end - he changed, and his limits changed (and Toronbo has already specified that he cannot otherwise bring out power beyond the subject's latent potential). It is at no point clear that Bardock and Gas are at all close in power prior to Bardock's 'instinct' coming into play - in fact, everything that is said points in the opposite direction: Gas is never really affected by anything Bardock does prior to that; he's simply increasingly annoyed that Bardock is continuing to waste his time by continuing his apparently futile resistance. Given that we've seen the power of 'instinct' do seriously crazy stuff like catapult Roshi into contention with Jiren, the gap between Gas and Bardock could conceivably have been unbridgeable by means of a wish made at the time that it was there to be made.

That doesn't work for me, brother.

That's fine; I've no problem with that at all, old chap.

But, respectfully, whether it "works" for you and whether I'm "making stuff up" are two clean different things. There's no need to postulate intellectual dishonesty in my response to your question when as far as I can tell, it seems simply to be a matter of something that you personally consider a shortcoming of the story.

[Mr Baggins]

Anyway, this is largely speculation on both sides.

I agree -- and to be clear, I've no problem asserting that Toriyama is responsible for something I disliked if that's how the cards fall. But since you were speculating who you felt was involved, I wanted to throw in my own two pennies as well.

"Fanfic" is a charged word with some negative connotations in fandom, but I really couldn't think of a more apt description to use. I'm not trying to get a rise out of people. That's just genuinely what this feels like, to me.

It's not on the same level as literally having visions of the future, but this has always felt more like a plot device that we knew needed to happen rather than a natural and justified distrust, especially since this is all caused by a single action from.Freeza.

I disagree. It's made clear in various mainline media that the Saiyans distrust Freeza, which - combined with the Super Saiyan legends - is partly the reason Freeza himself fears the possibility of a successful uprising. To have him then gather the entirety of their race on Planet Vegeta for unstated reasons is suspicious activity given the circumstances, so it's a natural reaction for an experienced warrior like Bardock to have. He's just putting two and two together.

Toriyama literally took two panels out of the Freeza vs. Goku fight to gush about how much he liked the Bardock special, then years later tacked on an extraneous chapter to Jaco just to have a shot at writing him, and gave him a nearly unrelated first-third of his latest stand-alone Dragon Ball Super movie.

Like ...?

Like what? Toriyama is the author of the original work. He completely rewrote Bardock to fit his own conception of the character, kept his backstory self-contained in Minus, and then translated that into animated format in Broly while connecting him to the theme of parental influence in that film.

Massive difference from Toyotaro spending 95% of the chapter giving Bardock "cool" fighting moments in the spotlight while endlessly regurgitating generic lines about Saiyan nature. It's some of the safest, most pandering writing I've ever seen done with his character and adds nothing of value (something I critiqued constantly about Super's anime in general, particularly how it handled the Tournament of Power).

Now, if you want to make an argument as to why you enjoyed the chapter and disagree with me, that's fine, and I'd be happy to engage. But cut the snark, my man; there's a reason I ignored your first response.

[kemuri07]

Presumably, even if Monaito would have thought of making Bardock stronger in exchange of some of his lifespan, Bardock would have still refused the wish, thus the outcome would have been the same.

Moreover, the fight is set in the past, so the point that characters now know of the trick does not hold up there.

I really don’t get the complaint. By the end of the arc it will be clear why such a wish is not feasible to do and why characters won’t make it.

Complaining about it while the arc is still going on is like complaining about Merus’ power when we still had no idea that he was an Angel.

But explaining things is not going to fix the problems the narrative structurally has. And that's the main issue. It's why people are falling off of this arc very fucking fast. It's slow and bloated, and its themes are all over the place. Like this is the main emotional component of the arc? About Bardock punching Gas really, really hard due to some bullshit powerup?

I'm continuing reading this arc out of morbid curiosity and the fact it doesn't take so much of my time to read it. But that's such a disappointing place to be when I was so hyped when this arc first started. I thought this series was finally taking steps to move out of its comfort zone--but nope. We're back entierly in the same place we've always been: Goku and Vegeta taking turns beating up a baddie.

[super michael]

So Gas removed Bardock tail, but didn't Bardock have his tail in the Broly movie and on Namek when Freeza had his flash back of Bardock? Wouldn't that be a huge contradiction.

Adult Goku, Vegeta and Gohan didn't gain their tail back. There was no indication of his tail growing back.

So just because, that is the reason Bardock got stronger, without training or transformation.

I mean, Bardock's tail evidently did grow back; rather, it were Vegeta and Gohan's tails that should have grown back, but they didn't for plot convenience.

You are right, the true error is in DBZ.

[Jack Bz]

There's definitely enough reasoning already shown for why Monaito wouldn't specifically wish for Bardock to be stronger than Gas. For a start, Monaito is already very hesitant to use the Dragon Balls at all and is very strict about the type of wishes he deems allowable. The guy won't even think of a plan to use the DBs to undo the genocide of his own people. It was shown that he acted horrified when Granolah used the Dragon Balls to make himself the strongest in the universe. To use the Dragon Balls to make Bardock strong would be essentially using them to kill Gas which seems against everything he believes in using them for. He's a very strong religious type, essentially. It wouldn't be in character at all. It's logical he'd rather go with a wish to teleport Bardock away.

2nd, Bardock has just refused his wish to be teleported somewhere else. He wants to fight this uphill battle on his own terms and has made that clear. What's the logical conclusion on what would happen if Monaito then tried to wish him to be stronger, especially if it required giving up any lifespan? He'd refuse. This really isn't a gaping plothole.

It definitely made less sense with Zamasu as, unlike with the cerealian dragon balls, we're told every time that they're mentioned that the super dragon balls can grant literally any wish. If he wanted to, there is no reason he couldn't have wished to be the strongest in the universe and people have been saying that since before this arc was conceptualised. That said, it was pretty clear to me that Zamasu deemed it poetic to act out his plan using the body of a mortal who he deemed to have committed an extraordinary sin by being stronger than gods. He was a theatrical character.

As for my feelings on the chapter as a whole: I actually liked all of it quite a lot until the whole idea that Goku's fate throughout the story could have anything to do with Monaito's wish. It's my absolutely nightmare that they try to link Goku's achievements to fate. I really wish modern Dragon Ball would stop trying to retro actively explain certain things that didn't need explaining at all.

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Granny and Gas had clear advantages over the rest due to their lifespan and their already big power, this "everybody would be wishing that" complaint falls flat. No, not "everybody" is stronger than Freeza, lives for so long, or are mentally weak enough to do so. And you give up your life just to be one step ahead of somebody, and the arc has proved that isn't enough and why it's a bad move will be proven by the end.
It's also one of the unique traits of this type of DBs, with a dragon that walks you through it. And Monaito will not live to see another arc. This loophole lives and dies in Cereal-sei.

It's like applying for a really big, business loan. John Smith the bus driver isn't getting it, only Wall Street big shots and movie stars can.

[Marz]

.

No, the story has made it very clear that the Dragon Balls are not capable of increasing someone's power beyond their latent potential (this is explicitly said by Toronbo when Granolah asks to become the strongest in the universe).

The only difference is that Toronbo has shown to be able to bring out all the power that Granolah would be able to obtain in his entire lifetime by condensing that latent potential into his remaining 3 years. Fundamentally, nothing changed, the dragon just worked around its conditions and the result was STILL within the limitations that Granolah had in life (aka, his potential). It's fine if you think this loophole is too subjective or "ethereal", but it doesn't break estabilished rules, you don't need to be dishonest about it

And did you notice how you took only Zamasu's example to counter? Probably because you know that the other two wishes EXIST within the story, and following your logic their existence would retroactively change the previous arcs in which this possibility existed. Not liking a story decision is one thing, but your nitipick just doesn't make sense, especially since the hypothetical situation you created (Monaito wishing for Bardock to be the strongest) would most likely not be possible and would also be limited by the how the characters are showed to act (Monaito would never make such a wish, just like you presented the fact that it would not be in-character for Zamasu to just wish for the mortais to be wiped out when he would want to do it personally)

[TheMajinRedComet]

On the tail subject didnt the doctor say Vegeta's tail could not be repaired. It also possible that Gohan and Goten had the same thing done to them as Goku. Maybe the tails always grow back unless there are complications.

[Mr Baggins]

But explaining things is not going to fix the problems the narrative structurally has. And that's the main issue. It's why people are falling off of this arc very fucking fast. It's slow and bloated, and its themes are all over the place.

But that's such a disappointing place to be when I was so hyped when this arc first started.

Absolutely this.

Everyone who knows me knows I've done nothing but lavish this sequel comic with praise from its mini-BoG adaptation right up until the very end of Universe Survival. I don't have some irrational hate-boner for the manga. I've held it in high regard for years, but that also means I'm going to hold it to equally high expectations.

Not only was I excited for Granolah's story during its initial chapters, I've never once hesitated to give this arc praise where it's due. I'd like to think I've been fair. But when these problems start to pile up from structure to pacing to coherency to themes and now to characterization, I'm going to call this shit like I see it. It's my opinion, and that's all it is -- and you can never say that I won't go to great lengths to elaborate.

[Jinto]

So Gas removed Bardock tail, but didn't Bardock have his tail in the Broly movie and on Namek when Freeza had his flash back of Bardock? Wouldn't that be a huge contradiction.

Adult Goku, Vegeta and Gohan didn't gain their tail back. There was no indication of his tail growing back.

So just because, that is the reason Bardock got stronger, without training or transformation.

I mean, Bardock's tail evidently did grow back; rather, it were Vegeta and Gohan's tails that should have grown back, but they didn't for plot convenience.

You are right, the true error is in DBZ.

I think it was said by Toriyama that sayajin's tails don't grow back when its bearer reach a certain power level which is implied to be close to Vegeta's level during the sayajin saga.

[Cipher]

Like what? Toriyama is the author of the original work. He completely rewrote Bardock to fit his own conception of the character, kept his backstory self-contained in Minus, and then translated that into animated format in Broly while connecting him to the theme of parental influence in that film.

Massive difference from Toyotaro spending 95% of the chapter giving Bardock "cool" fighting moments in the spotlight while endlessly regurgitating generic lines about Saiyan nature. It's some of the safest, most pandering writing I've ever seen done with his character and adds nothing of value (something I critiqued constantly about Super's anime in general, particularly how it handled the Tournament of Power).

Now, if you want to make an argument as to why you enjoyed the chapter and disagree with me, that's fine, and I'd be happy to engage. But cut the snark, my man; there's a reason I ignored your first response.

It was just snark on posts that amounted to nothing but considering the very inclusion of the character a negative, and in particular the assertion that Toriyama would never, which is just ... patently untrue; it doesn't really get more fan-service for the sake of fan-service than Bardock's appearances in the original series and "Minus." Toyotaro may be behind the inclusion here, but Toriyama of all people definitely isn't above it. Which is fine, because it's also okay for an author to indulge in a character they enjoy, and I think both the original DB and manga Super, with its limitations as a midquel, are pretty good about never feeling insincere with their reasons for character inclusions.

Anyway, I hadn't read the chapter yet, but now that I have...

I can only stand by the above, I suppose. Bardock feels more of a piece with the story here than he has since Toriyama first reinvented him, and his emotional grit and drive propel him through fights in the same way they, by another token, propel him into saving Granolah and Goku. Monaito's lines about the bit of mercy Bardock showed them blossoming into something that may yet save more lives do a good job of positioning the worthiness of saving him without completely sanitizing a mass-killer, which was a potential concern I had--he is who he is, but is in the position to do some more good if he survives. (Ultimately we know he helps wipe out at least one more planet, via "Minus," but I think the story here is careful enough about celebrating these acts of his without redeeming the character.)

I've said my peace about the potential role this has in Goku's development, but having read it now, I think the specific bent of "you need focus, but let it be focus on competition" is a good marriage of more Goku-esque whims with the zen-like focus pitched as necessary for maintaining Ultra Instinct. Interested in seeing what comes of that, and more marriage of martial-arts progress and characterization, as has been Super's wont.

Re: The wish: I second others in that, given Monaito's dialogue immediately after the balls scatter, I tend to not believe it was made. It's just a moment to Bardock. But to the extent that it invites considering it, in the ambiguity, I think it works fine too. (Maybe better even?) I think it's a relatively minor alteration to Goku's backstory compared to the Bardock motivations of "Minus," and I don't think it's nearly as potentially harmful.

If you read it as having happened, at most it takes moments in the original run that are presented as sheer random happenstance--things like Goku surviving against Tao Pai Pai or Piccolo Daimao, or the Super Divine Water--moments which have never had much at all to do with his characterization, and read as pure (but forgivable) contrivance for momentary cliffhangers--and makes them instead the result of character-based influence he brought about in Bardock through his birth, a first Goku-influence effect, and one that had secretly helped him in turn. I'd take that, actually. That's fine! Character-consequence is usually more interesting than contrived happenstance. Usually.

On the action front: Some really good bits in here like the weight and speed behind Gas' mace at the beginning, and in particular the speed behind Gas kicking and then slamming Bardock into the cliff-face on the page in which we first see Toronbo. On the other hand, the bottom panels of that page could be quickened by having just two of them instead of three, and there's an instance of some rather less than convincing poses for a flurry panel on the page after that--a mixed bag in an arc largely full of series' highs, but good bits in here as well. I don't think all that much of the fight post-Bardock's power-up, and it falls back on a few stock poses, but it's fine.

Next month: The story again. I didn't find the pacing particularly off in this chapter taken unto itself (I don't even feel like any bits of action run too long), but I do wonder if maybe we couldn't have found a way to move further forward in 40 pages, and somewhat fondly remember the expediency of the first three arcs. Just from a pure cliffhanger/excitement standpoint, beginning and ending the chapter in flashback was probably a misstep. There had to have been a better hook for next month back in the present.

[kemuri07]

Separated from context, I think the chapter is fine. I'll even go and say there are some good pieces of action with Bardock looking pretty badass in some shots. Its fine. But when connected to the arc as a whole--what is the point of all this? Like what effect will this reveal have on our understanding of the characters or the broader world of Dragonball. And the answer is:

Not a single bit. This is a nothingburger of storytelling where the entire purpose is to add in content for the sake of content. This is disappointing because I've felt the manga adaptation of Super has done pretty well at fixing a lot of my issues with the anime version: Taking moments that amount to blatant fanservice and trying to make them flow so much better within the context of the story. I don't think the Manga makes super "good," but it certainly made it more accessible and more "fun" to enjoy.

But all this Bardock stuff is something I expect from the anime. It's just fanservice for the sake of it. People like Bardock and he's a popular character so we'll give him something to do that makes him cool, and not much else. And I'm sure there's people who love this, probably a lot considering that Super sales are fairly good. I'm sure there's plenty of people who just expect Super to give them a chapter with Goku powering up or getting a new transformation. And that's fine too.

But I think we as fans deserve better than this. Especially if we have to wait a full on month for this.