Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

We don't know if Goku can even go UI in the movies. He couldn't in Broly even when Broly beat him up.

You shouldn't take the threat level too seriously since Mr. Satan is also considered a threat.

Seems weird that Goku wouldn't be able to go Ultra Instinct and Gohan not know about it. I don't think the movie would ignore the anime or manga to that kind of extent.

At the end of the TOP in both versions Goku couldn't go UI willingly. While the manga leaves it vague as to why, Goku in the anime theorized it was a transformation that only happens under extreme duress. This was all to explain away why UI wasn't in the Broly movie because USS was interestedly enough written after Toriyama scripted Broly.

Point is, we don't know if Goku can go into UI willingly and if he can't, it wouldn't occur to Gohan to count it.

[Goku9001]

I've thus far managed to avoid most movie spoilers except for the Jiren bit, so I guess I'll comment on that:

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole.

What's interesting here is that the manga has explicitly mentioned Jiren exceeding his God of Destruction in "combat skill alone", as well as his philosophy about not wasting movements.

Spoiler:

Fun fact: Jiren is talking to Vegeta when elaborating on his fighting style, so it makes sense that Vegeta would be the one to bring this up in the movie rather than Goku.

That would make sense. His battle power exceeds that of a God of Destruction and his skill in combat further exaggerates that gap. That would explain his ability to adapt to UI Goku's movements.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Where did the idea come from that the Gammas were equal to Goku and Vegeta?

[dragonball0900]

Where did the idea come from that the Gammas were equal to Goku and Vegeta?

In the movie, after Piccolo's fight with Gamma 2, he says that based on his movements, his strength is comparable to Goku and Vegeta. I believe he is referring to their SSB forms.

I don't think he really said they were equal to Goku and Vegeta, but they would at least be close enough to SSB tier.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Believable enough then seeing as they were meant to be above Android 17.

I can't recall now but didn't Ultimate Gohan have the advantage over Gamma 1 while Gamma 2 had the advantage over Ultimate Piccolo?

[Cipher]

Believable enough then seeing as they were meant to be above Android 17.

I can't recall now but didn't Ultimate Gohan have the advantage over Gamma 1 while Gamma 2 had the advantage over Ultimate Piccolo?

Yes, on both accounts.

[SaiyanGod117]

I've thus far managed to avoid most movie spoilers except for the Jiren bit, so I guess I'll comment on that:

To piggy back off of the whole Jiren discussion, even promotional/supplementary information makes an explicit reference to Jiren's power exceeding that of a God of Destruction rather than referring to his combat ability related to his mental ability and skill as a whole.

What's interesting here is that the manga has explicitly mentioned Jiren exceeding his God of Destruction in "combat skill alone", as well as his philosophy about not wasting movements.

Spoiler:

Fun fact: Jiren is talking to Vegeta when elaborating on his fighting style, so it makes sense that Vegeta would be the one to bring this up in the movie rather than Goku.

I was just about to bring that up. Toppo's line finally makes sense now.

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

[HeroR]

I've thus far managed to avoid most movie spoilers except for the Jiren bit, so I guess I'll comment on that:


What's interesting here is that the manga has explicitly mentioned Jiren exceeding his God of Destruction in "combat skill alone", as well as his philosophy about not wasting movements.

Spoiler:

Fun fact: Jiren is talking to Vegeta when elaborating on his fighting style, so it makes sense that Vegeta would be the one to bring this up in the movie rather than Goku.

I was just about to bring that up. Toppo's line finally makes sense now.

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

Think the greater point is that Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction no matter the media. Even people who try to downplay by saying that Jiren is only as strong as 'his' God of Destruction missed that in the battle royal, all the gods were more or less equal to each other. Yeah, Beerus dodged a few blows, but the moment he got caught he got beating up just as easily as the others.

[Goku9001]

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

I believe Cipher mentioned that it was referencing power in a traditional sense rather than combat skill and technique but wasn't sure if my judgement was correct here. I think there's an argument to be made for both Jiren's power and combat skill exceeding a God of Destructions, but I certainly don't think his battle power is lower than a God of Destruction let alone at a level that isn't drastically above Goku and Vegeta given the explicit statements made regarding Jiren's power in supplementary material as well as both the anime and manga making it a point that Jiren had hardly been using his full power against them. With Jiren's ability to respond to Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku's movements, I think a case could be made for his combat skill being that impressive too.

In regards to Goku and Vegeta, I think it's fair to say that any comparisons made about them would be involving their Blue form rather than their Ultra forms as their Blue form is represented to be the strongest form across both continuities. Toriyama likely expected people have kept up with the Super anime and watched the Broly movie rather than read the manga. That's presumably why Toriyama had promoted the movie as a successor to two major battles that took place i.e Tournament of Power and Broly. That's not to say that Super Hero isn't a continuation of the manga but is telling on what perspective Toriyama had when writing this movie. Toriyama likely wasn't sure how the Super would develop after Broly given that Super Hero's script was in development during the development of Broly and because he didn't expect their core audience to be aware of the Saiyan's Ultra forms, it was written without that in mind.

This could make sense of how Jiren and Broly serve as proper benchmarks for Goku and Vegeta. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta could be somewhat relevant players to Jiren and Broly even if they are weaker to help account for the manga's implications while still acknowledging the major growth they've received following the events of Broly. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta may be closing in on Broly and Jiren, but they could still be weaker than them while simultaneously being far stronger in their Ultra forms which is congruous to how they were fighting Granolah and now Gas.

I was just about to bring that up. Toppo's line finally makes sense now.

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

Think the greater point is that Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction no matter the media. Even people who try to downplay by saying that Jiren is only as strong as 'his' God of Destruction missed that in the battle royal, all the gods were more or less equal to each other. Yeah, Beerus dodged a few blows, but the moment he got caught he got beating up just as easily as the others.

Another point to mention is that the battle was a chaotic mess. It was not a display of technique which was shown prior with Beerus dominating them all. It was a showing of power which is why Toppo's statement really hits home to Goku as to how powerful Jiren is. He saw all of the Hakaishin's power and couldn't believe someone was even above that. I definitely agree that all mediums suggest that Jiren's battle power exceeded a Hakaishin.

[HeroR]

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

I believe Cipher mentioned that it was referencing power in a traditional sense rather than combat skill and technique but wasn't sure if my judgement was correct here. I think there's an argument to be made for both Jiren's power and combat skill exceeding a God of Destructions, but I certainly don't think his battle power is lower than a God of Destruction let alone at a level that isn't drastically above Goku and Vegeta given the explicit statements made regarding Jiren's power in supplementary material as well as both the anime and manga making it a point that Jiren had hardly been using his full power against them. With Jiren's ability to respond to Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku's movements, I think a case could be made for his combat skill being that impressive too.

In regards to Goku and Vegeta, I think it's fair to say that any comparisons made about them would be involving their Blue form rather than their Ultra forms as their Blue form is represented to be the strongest form across both continuities. Toriyama likely expected people have kept up with the Super anime and watched the Broly movie rather than read the manga. That's presumably why Toriyama had promoted the movie as a successor to two major battles that took place i.e Tournament of Power and Broly. That's not to say that Super Hero isn't a continuation of the manga but is telling on what perspective Toriyama had when writing this movie. Toriyama likely wasn't sure how the Super would develop after Broly given that Super Hero's script was in development during the development of Broly and because he didn't expect their core audience to be aware of the Saiyan's Ultra forms, it was written without that in mind.

This could make sense of how Jiren and Broly serve as proper benchmarks for Goku and Vegeta. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta could be somewhat relevant players to Jiren and Broly even if they are weaker to help account for the manga's implications while still acknowledging the major growth they've received following the events of Broly. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta may be closing in on Broly and Jiren, but they could still be weaker than them while simultaneously being far stronger in their Ultra forms which is congruous to how they were fighting Granolah and now Gas.

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

Think the greater point is that Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction no matter the media. Even people who try to downplay by saying that Jiren is only as strong as 'his' God of Destruction missed that in the battle royal, all the gods were more or less equal to each other. Yeah, Beerus dodged a few blows, but the moment he got caught he got beating up just as easily as the others.

Another point to mention is that the battle was a chaotic mess. It was not a display of technique which was shown prior with Beerus dominating them all. It was a showing of power which is why Toppo's statement really hits home to Goku as to how powerful Jiren is. He saw all of the Hakaishin's power and couldn't believe someone was even above that. I definitely agree that all mediums suggest that Jiren's battle power exceeded a Hakaishin.

Not completely true because the elephant god paralyzed everyone but screaming so loud that it caused the Supreme Kais to pass out, one god entrapped everyone in a bubble (think it was Belmond), and the female God of Destruction could make an arrow so strong that it pieced another god's arm.

But it is true that the royal was basically Smash Brothers in free-for-all with all the items turned on.

[Goku9001]

That was a mistranslation the official viz volume translation states his power exceeds Belmod’s or something of that nature.

I believe Cipher mentioned that it was referencing power in a traditional sense rather than combat skill and technique but wasn't sure if my judgement was correct here. I think there's an argument to be made for both Jiren's power and combat skill exceeding a God of Destructions, but I certainly don't think his battle power is lower than a God of Destruction let alone at a level that isn't drastically above Goku and Vegeta given the explicit statements made regarding Jiren's power in supplementary material as well as both the anime and manga making it a point that Jiren had hardly been using his full power against them. With Jiren's ability to respond to Perfected Ultra Instinct Goku's movements, I think a case could be made for his combat skill being that impressive too.

In regards to Goku and Vegeta, I think it's fair to say that any comparisons made about them would be involving their Blue form rather than their Ultra forms as their Blue form is represented to be the strongest form across both continuities. Toriyama likely expected people have kept up with the Super anime and watched the Broly movie rather than read the manga. That's presumably why Toriyama had promoted the movie as a successor to two major battles that took place i.e Tournament of Power and Broly. That's not to say that Super Hero isn't a continuation of the manga but is telling on what perspective Toriyama had when writing this movie. Toriyama likely wasn't sure how the Super would develop after Broly given that Super Hero's script was in development during the development of Broly and because he didn't expect their core audience to be aware of the Saiyan's Ultra forms, it was written without that in mind.

This could make sense of how Jiren and Broly serve as proper benchmarks for Goku and Vegeta. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta could be somewhat relevant players to Jiren and Broly even if they are weaker to help account for the manga's implications while still acknowledging the major growth they've received following the events of Broly. Blue Goku and Blue Vegeta may be closing in on Broly and Jiren, but they could still be weaker than them while simultaneously being far stronger in their Ultra forms which is congruous to how they were fighting Granolah and now Gas.

Think the greater point is that Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction no matter the media. Even people who try to downplay by saying that Jiren is only as strong as 'his' God of Destruction missed that in the battle royal, all the gods were more or less equal to each other. Yeah, Beerus dodged a few blows, but the moment he got caught he got beating up just as easily as the others.

Another point to mention is that the battle was a chaotic mess. It was not a display of technique which was shown prior with Beerus dominating them all. It was a showing of power which is why Toppo's statement really hits home to Goku as to how powerful Jiren is. He saw all of the Hakaishin's power and couldn't believe someone was even above that. I definitely agree that all mediums suggest that Jiren's battle power exceeded a Hakaishin.

Not completely true because the elephant god paralyzed everyone but screaming so loud that it caused the Supreme Kais to pass out, one god entrapped everyone in a bubble (think it was Belmond), and the female God of Destruction could make an arrow so strong that it pieced another god's arm.

But it is true that the royal was basically Smash Brothers in free-for-all with all the items turned on.

The battle roar was regarded as a demonstration of power which is implied by Whis when he suggests that even the Hakaishin's barely had the power to stand up to it. I would say that as the fight continued and it devolved in a Smash Bros. Free for All, it became more of a brute force rather than skill and technique as the Hakaishins are evidently shown to be trading blows with eachother, throwing blasts and even physical blows against eachother. Even if there was some technique involved, I think their power was what was being demonstrated here.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yes, on both accounts.

Then between the Tournament of Power and this movie I see it being like this

Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan > Gamma 1/2 > Ultimate Piccolo > Android 17

But the gaps being quite small as Android 17 wasn't that far off from Top who was the same as a Super Saiyan Blue.

[TobyS]

Post BOG retcon where Base Goku is no longer insane and absorbed God.

How does the imaginary version of the his manga, otherwise the same as the promo manga but with retconned power levels look?

Kuririn thinks they will be fine knowing they have Buu after seeing Gohan look shitty. It's only after seeing Buu doesn't turn up things start to look especially when Gohan reveals he can't beat this Freeza even in SS1.

Ultimate Gohan >> Buu > First From Freeza > SS1 Gohan

The only interesting thing to Note is that Kuririn think Gohan might be able to beat him but Gohan is sure he can't so this presumably implies Gohans at his useable limit and Kuririn was assuming he was going to be able to power up even more, perhaps to SS2 or Ult.

What's interesting is where he and Buu would lie in relation to Freezas other forms.

If he's at the same freshly transformed he was in the manga, buuhan, otherwise Freeza at 100%.
But under the unseen hypothetical post retcon of absorbed god in base IDK.

Does Goku go ss1 or god or is Freeza is scaled down in his lower forms? The TOP seems to Support Final form Freeza being weaker and Gold being a bigger multiplier.

Where do Buu and a hypothetical Ultimate Gohan (and say SS3 Gotenks for that matter) fit here in relation to freezas forms?

[SupremeKai25]

So I was just thinking, in the Future Trunks arc, there was no sign of Hedo, the Gammas, or Cell Max anywhere. Indeed, there was no sign of the Red Ribbon at all and it was just a bunch of survivors hiding in a ruined subway.

This implies that (Base btw) Black and Zamasu got rid of them. Which would obviously and also imply that Black and Zamasu had the strength to destroy these Red Ribbon forces introduced in this movie.

[TobyS]

So I was just thinking, in the Future Trunks arc, there was no sign of Hedo, the Gammas, or Cell Max anywhere. Indeed, there was no sign of the Red Ribbon at all and it was just a bunch of survivors hiding in a ruined subway.

This implies that (Base btw) Black and Zamasu got rid of them. Which would obviously and also imply that Black and Zamasu had the strength to destroy these Red Ribbon forces introduced in this movie.

In the future we have no idea when and by who they were killed, the androids, dabra? Black? They could have been killed before the gammas or this cell were ready. Also with the world fucked they'd have trouble getting staff and resources.

Doesn't mean they finished their projects and then were killed.

What was the relative year/AGE of the movie and the future events?

[Hugo Boss]

How does the imaginary version of the his manga, otherwise the same as the promo manga but with retconned power levels look?

According to how Whis describes it in chapter #32, after Freeza’s army was destroyed he transformed to Golden Freeza, and Goku and Vegeta fought him with their Super Saiyan Blue forms. So, the manga basically shrugged off any interaction Freeza had with his first and fourth forms.

As for how Boo and the others compare to the forms other than Golden Freeza, you might have to consider some points:
- Freeza had a tough match against Caulifla when she was using her Super Saiyan form and when he was using his fourth form;
- Chapter #32 implies Caulifla may be more talented or stronger than Goku and Vegeta when you count only the Super Saiyan form, as she was beating Cabba around easily in the same form;
- Cabba and Vegeta were tight close on their match in the same forms, but perhaps both got stronger since then or Vegeta was holding back for some reason, that’s your pick.

Considering those points, my personal take is that Freeza’s fourth form was at the highest level Super Saiyan could reach in the DBS manga, but not so much as a SS2, so likely no match for Ultimate Gohan, SS3 Gotenks and all the package of high tiers from Boo Arc.

About Freeza’s first form, I think you can draw a parallel with Frost’s first form, but with Freeza having a considerable advantage, which you can extend to his other forms as well.

[ankokudaishogun]

That would make sense. His battle power exceeds that of a God of Destruction and his skill in combat further exaggerates that gap. That would explain his ability to adapt to UI Goku's movements.

Complete Blue has been called GoD Candidate-class
Blue Evo was comparable to GoD Toppo who was stated being not any different from a regular GoD

IMHO Jiren's RAW power was still in the "same class"(GoD class) as Blue Evo and KKx20, thus fitting the "not too far of a gap" stated by Vegeta, though the Saiyan were likely in the lower ranks of the class and Jiren likely in the upper ranks.

But his SKILL was so high he blasted off the roof of the category: manga Toppo states explicitly Jiren's fighting ability is unmatched by Vermoud, while in the anime Whis suspects Jiren's ability surpassed the GoD state... thus implying being in the Angel stage(as we don't know any other "stage" between GoD and Angel), which fits with the idea of him reaching a "conscious" version of Ultra Instinct.

Remember: Goku and Vegeta in Blue were supposed to be able to match Beerus, so the gap cannot be that gigantic.

[HeroR]

That would make sense. His battle power exceeds that of a God of Destruction and his skill in combat further exaggerates that gap. That would explain his ability to adapt to UI Goku's movements.

Complete Blue has been called GoD Candidate-class
Blue Evo was comparable to GoD Toppo who was stated being not any different from a regular GoD

IMHO Jiren's RAW power was still in the "same class"(GoD class) as Blue Evo and KKx20, thus fitting the "not too far of a gap" stated by Vegeta, though the Saiyan were likely in the lower ranks of the class and Jiren likely in the upper ranks.

But his SKILL was so high he blasted off the roof of the category: manga Toppo states explicitly Jiren's fighting ability is unmatched by Vermoud, while in the anime Whis suspects Jiren's ability surpassed the GoD state... thus implying being in the Angel stage(as we don't know any other "stage" between GoD and Angel), which fits with the idea of him reaching a "conscious" version of Ultra Instinct.

Remember: Goku and Vegeta in Blue were supposed to be able to match Beerus, so the gap cannot be that gigantic.

Should be noted that line that Goku/Vegeta is closed to Beerus was only in the Resurrection 'F' movie and not the retelling. The retelling of Battle of Gods also removed the 70% line. Even in the Super manga Whis never implies that Goku/Vegeta could rival Beerus. So you shouldn't assumed that line from Resurrection 'F' still holds true since we know Beerus' 70% statement can't be matched to Broly even if we ignored TOP. Especially when you considered in all versions, Goku and Vegeta worked together to fight Jiren and Jiren still moped them. In the manga where they gave Jiren more trouble since their teamwork didn't suck, Jiren just finger flicked Vegeta out of the ring.

[Thani]

So I was just thinking, in the Future Trunks arc, there was no sign of Hedo, the Gammas, or Cell Max anywhere. Indeed, there was no sign of the Red Ribbon at all and it was just a bunch of survivors hiding in a ruined subway.

This implies that (Base btw) Black and Zamasu got rid of them. Which would obviously and also imply that Black and Zamasu had the strength to destroy these Red Ribbon forces introduced in this movie.

Or rather, you know, Future 17 and 18 killed them all years before they could be a thing.

[ZombieVito]

Or rather, you know, Future 17 and 18 killed them all years before they could be a thing.

Or that the future world doesn't have the resources to build the Gammas and Cell Max.