"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Trouser]

Yeah, I was just joking. But DB fandom in general is sick about those things, so if there's no Toriyama input, the story is "non-canon" according to Protectors of the Holy Canon.

[TobyS]

"Canon" basically hasn't mattered since... well really never, in the long run. But it especially hasn't mattered since Super started running two separate, concurrent, narratively-incompatible versions of itself while everyone tried to act like they were somehow both the "one true 'canon' continuation" at the same time. The concept has already been a joke for years.

If Toriyama really is breaking off and leaving the next Super manga arc for Toyotaro to pen without him, it honestly doesn't change anything.

Yeah it's a weird situation for sure but I think it's a little weirder than that.

The anime was the main product, the manga was promotional. It started to do its own thing. More awkwardly it has more involvement by Toriyama than the anime does.

I think at this point it's more a case of declaring either (the anime) “not actually canon after all” would only hurt the anime and not help the manga.

This pretense of “seperate but equal” is like a case of “a rising tide lifts all ships”.

On top of that it seems the Japanese fanbase and producers don't really give a shit about canon the way the western fans do.

Although they always boast original author involvement wherever possible so they know that has some kind of greater legitimacy in some broader sense...

[TobyS]

Imagine if this were true, the manga would be so much better if these two collaborated. Personally, it would also be a little interesting to see how far their imagination can go.

Is this fake or just unconfirmed?

[Bardock God of Time]

The funny thing about canon-gatekeepers is they used to say that the manga was 100% canon

Nowadays they say the Super anime is canon and everything in the manga is fake

why can't we enjoy things whether they are canon or not? People still complain about GT because it wasn't made by Toriyama

[sangofe]

Imagine if this were true, the manga would be so much better if these two collaborated. Personally, it would also be a little interesting to see how far their imagination can go.

Is this fake or just unconfirmed?

Why would it be better?

[batistabus]

In case the content - and the fact that this is supposedly in V-Jump but hasn't been discussed by prominent leaders - didn't give it away, that "leak" is fake:
https://twitter.com/animeajay/status/15 ... 42976?s=21

[TobyS]

In case the content - and the fact that this is supposedly in V-Jump but hasn't been discussed by prominent leaders - didn't give it away, that "leak" is fake:
https://twitter.com/animeajay/status/15 ... 42976?s=21

Damn I was wildly speculating based on the latest arc of heroes where it could end with only the "canon" timeline left alive, with the Xenos and Heroes dead. It could have converged nicely.

[pepd]

Man, that was expected, but somehow the confirmation is still is a relief. Tho on second thought, I think I would be fine with a pause or ending of the main story (besides confirmed movies) after the quality of the last arc.

[Dragmobot12]

Creativity and having everything planned is necessary. When you have a team of three or two people, you can work pretty well to come up with something decent in the end. Look at Moro's arc, it started off well and ended up being shit, do you wanna know why? Because there was no plan, there was no complete script, basically the story was created along the way, and I'm 90% sure Toyo was just making something up as he went along, with no definite plan. It's not going to work out that way for them.
Granolah's arc is already much better in terms of passing, but it's boring as hell. Nagayama's presence would have been good, and here's why, because his ideas would have stimulated their imagination to come up with something better to show the readers of the manga. And honestly, I'm amazed by Nagayama's work; he's really a creative man.
Will it ever happen? I don't know! But it's not impossible, because Toyotaro knows Nagayama, they've known each other for a long time, and the two of them could very well collaborate someday, and Toriyama could supervise them and give them some tips if needed.

[Alkiser]

Creativity and having everything planned is necessary. When you have a team of three or two people, you can work pretty well to come up with something decent in the end. Look at Moro's arc, it started off well and ended up being shit, do you wanna know why? Because there was no plan, there was no complete script, basically the story was created along the way, and I'm 90% sure Toyo was just making something up as he went along, with no definite plan. It's not going to work out that way for them.
Granolah's arc is already much better in terms of passing, but it's boring as hell. Nagayama's presence would have been good, and here's why, because his ideas would have stimulated their imagination to come up with something better to show the readers of the manga. And honestly, I'm amazed by Nagayama's work; he's really a creative man.
Will it ever happen? I don't know! But it's not impossible, because Toyotaro knows Nagayama, they've known each other for a long time, and the two of them could very well collaborate someday, and Toriyama could supervise them and give them some tips if needed.

No it's not more creative, SDBH is a fan servic mess with every possible option done to the hilt. As exemplified by Cumber, Black ssj3 rose or other Zamasu pirates. Not to mention the ugly and uneven dash that ok presents.

[Dragmobot12]

I know that he's forced to do that sometimes, because the object for that is to sell toys, lol.
I'm talking about creativity in terms of the story, Nagayama's stories are more enjoyable, intense, and less predictable than what Toyotaro did for the previous two arcs.

[batistabus]

Creativity and having everything planned is necessary. When you have a team of three or two people, you can work pretty well to come up with something decent in the end. Look at Moro's arc, it started off well and ended up being shit, do you wanna know why? Because there was no plan, there was no complete script, basically the story was created along the way, and I'm 90% sure Toyo was just making something up as he went along, with no definite plan. It's not going to work out that way for them.

Toriyama wrote the original series without much of a plan from chapter to chapter. As for the Moro arc, as with the rest of Super, it was almost certainly outlined from beginning to end.

Nagayama's presence would have been good, and here's why, because his ideas would have stimulated their imagination to come up with something better to show the readers of the manga. And honestly, I'm amazed by Nagayama's work; he's really a creative man.
Will it ever happen? I don't know! But it's not impossible, because Toyotaro knows Nagayama, they've known each other for a long time, and the two of them could very well collaborate someday, and Toriyama could supervise them and give them some tips if needed.

I don't have much of an opinion on Nagayama. From what I've read of the SDBH manga, in ways it's preferable to the promo anime, but not by a lot, and it doesn't do anything to make me like the underlying story more. Maybe he'd produce something more interesting if he was given creative freedom. As for his art, it's not bad, but it doesn't really resemble Toriyama's style. Generally speaking, I would not want the DBS manga to resemble SDBH in any way.

If Toriyama ever did step away from writing Super stories and left things to Toyotaro, I don't see any reason for Nagayama to get involved. Maybe if Toyotaro quit or wanted a break from drawing himself, or if Nagayama eventually got a more prominent role in the Dragon Ball Room.

[Miracles]

Toriyama rewriting TOEI's entire script for BoG, since he called their original script; something he couldn't call Dragonball; really shows what is canon to me.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Toriyama rewriting TOEI's entire script for BoG, since he called their original script; something he couldn't call Dragonball; really shows what is canon to me.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/battle-of-gods/

Toriyama didn't write the script for BoG.

[VegettoEX]

As you can read from the interviews cited on the page you’ve linked, though Yusuke Watanabe is still credited for the script, Toriyama effectively rewrote the entire thing himself, including plot points, locations, dialog, character designs, etc. (which he also later reiterated in his Super History Book introductory comments).

[Miracles]

Toriyama rewriting TOEI's entire script for BoG, since he called their original script; something he couldn't call Dragonball; really shows what is canon to me.

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/movie/battle-of-gods/

Toriyama didn't write the script for BoG.

VegettoEX got it right...

As you can read from the interviews cited on the page you’ve linked, though Yusuke Watanabe is still credited for the script, Toriyama effectively rewrote the entire thing himself, including plot points, locations, dialog, character designs, etc. (which he also later reiterated in his Super History Book introductory comments).

[kemuri07]

The funny thing about canon-gatekeepers is they used to say that the manga was 100% canon

Nowadays they say the Super anime is canon and everything in the manga is fake

why can't we enjoy things whether they are canon or not? People still complain about GT because it wasn't made by Toriyama

I don't understand this. I don't understand how an anime that has been off air for four years is still apparently the canon story but the manga, which has been running since, is apparently not. It makes no sense. And I guarantee you that whenever Super comes back,it will absolutely follow the manga because why the heck would you repeat the same exact issues that plagued Super's production again?

Granted this is an issue that Toei brought unto themselves, and the fact they've been continually cagey about the Super timeline doesn't help matters. I mean I don't necessarily care, but I do think its annoying seeing people run themselves ragged trying to prove that there is a canon when it ultimately doesn't matter because Toei kinda doesn't care themselves. That post people keep posting that somehow proves that the movies are canon to the anime--it doesn't do that at all. What it says is pretty much the same thing Toei has always said about Super, that they keep things relatively vague so that when you watch a movie, whether you're a manga reader or an anime watcher, you won't be left behind.

[batistabus]

The "canon" debate matters even less than it ever did since Iyoku's statement about the parallel stories. Even though the films and the series both occur within the same universe, Toriyama doesn't want to have to worry about matching up with every aspect of the series when writing the films, and he doesn't want Toyotaro to be restricted in that way either. All of these stories are in development and rolled out at different times, so matching up everything would either not be feasible or stifle Dragon Ball's signature spontaneity.

In short, both the anime and manga are "canon" to the films and vise versa, but none is 100% consistent with the others because "it's more fun that way"*.

*(Iyoku said this in the "parallel stories" statement, and it's very similar to something Toriyama told Toyotaro when suggesting Toyo contribute more ideas to the manga story. So this philosophy is likely derived from Toriyama himself.)

Now, if the anime returns, and it adapts the Moro arc, will it be more consistent with the anime or manga? Well, the Moro arc was developed by Toriyama and Toyotaro, so even if the anime - say - throws in their design for SSBE, there might be other manga-specific nods that don't necessarily jive with the original Super anime series. As for the movies, Toriyama will use whatever he likes, remembers, or whatever Iyoku insists on. So the best coarse of action is to probably view it all as a fun series that uses what it needs instead of religious texts etched in stone.

[MCDaveG]

As you can read from the interviews cited on the page you’ve linked, though Yusuke Watanabe is still credited for the script, Toriyama effectively rewrote the entire thing himself, including plot points, locations, dialog, character designs, etc. (which he also later reiterated in his Super History Book introductory comments).

I always find the idea, that Dragon Ball Evolution was so bad, that it basically forced Toriyama to get back to Dragon Ball in some extent, funny.
As much hated as the movie gets, it basically kickstarted a continuation of the series with BOG, ROF and Super series.

[capsulecorp]

The anime was the main product, the manga was promotional. It started to do its own thing. More awkwardly it has more involvement by Toriyama than the anime does.

Canon aside, I think at this point its more realistic to say that the movies are the "real product", the manga is promotional, and the anime was a failed experiment.