Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What's the strongest character a team of MUI Roshi, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha could defeat together?

Do they all have MUI, or just Roshi? Either way, MUI Roshi distracting + Kienzan = GG

Crazy to think just the number of the MUI multiplier is probably bigger than their power levels.

[Yuji]

Is Goku actually weaker from the Moro arc to Granolah? The inner conflict seems to have affected his mastery of Ultra Instinct. Sign is somehow more effective in battle but we see that in overall battle power the silver form is still top dog when at the end of the arc he pulls out the Ki avatar again.

With MUI Goku in the Moro arc as a 100, how would you rate the following forms?

Moro arc Sign:
Moro arc MUI: 100
Moro arc MUI with Ki avatar:
Granolah arc MUI:
Granolah arc Sign/"TUI":
Granolah arc MUI with Ki avatar:

[Miracles]

Goku is actually much stronger. When Goku brought out True UI Sign against Gas he said Silver Haired form is still strongest but needs to keep his heart calm for that to work. The only reason he was able to catch and fling the strongest version of Gas in Silver Haired mode was because after hearing the word "protect" from Elec concerning planet Cereal being destroyed. It's the same thing Goku remember's about his father Bardock shipping him off planet Vegeta before it exploded. Which awakened his power orginally.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

A lot of DBS media have been very careful about showing just how powerful and skilled the silver-haired completed Ultra Instinct without really showing it as outright weaker than the current strongest threat at a given time.

In both anime and manga, Jiren has to fully ramp himself up to the absolute max to even keep up and still ultimately is inferior to Ultra Instinct; in the manga, Moro needs Merus's Angel power while Granolah and Gas can't tag the completed Ultra Instinct Goku until he drops out of the state.

It's a interesting bit of consistency.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Toyotaro said Vegeta finally closed the gap between himself and Goku with Ultra Ego. Other than when they fought Granolah, Vegeta never looked stronger than Goku, so I don't think Goku is constantly nerfed. More like he starts at full power and then his power starts to wane because his mind wanders. Not like SSJB, SSJB's power dips in a nanosecond, more like Golden or 100% Freeza.

I think the issue is that Goku became cocky after he fully learned how to activate Ultra Instinct. Against Jiren and Moro he was fighting for survival, no time to think. When training, he started to doubt himself because he didn't feel Ultra Instinct fit his style, and against Granolah he was full of himself. The issue with Goku is that he ends up hijacking himself, like in RoF or the Boo Saga. Against Gas he also had his doubts about UI because of Bardock's message.

True UI isn't Sign. It may look like it, maybe it's an evolution of Sign, but the idea is that Goku shouldn't transform, like Whis says in the beginning of the chapter. It should be his natural state. So Goku only gets the aura. Maybe think of it like this?:

Sign = False SSJ
Silver = Normal SSJ
True = Mastered SSJ

I think the big avatar is the full realization of UI's potential, at least power-wise. So much power that it doesn't even fit in Goku's body, so he has to make a projection.

[Yuji]

Goku heavily implies "true" UI is just Sign. He tells Gas he can let his emotions run in that form. Maybe it got a power boost because multipliers in Super seem to be fluid, but it doesn't seem to be a separate form and the silver-haired form in the neutral mindstate is still implied to be the strongest.

For anyone who read Bleach, I think you can trace a parallel here with how Ichigo has progressively gotten weaker from the Soul Society to the Arrancar arc because of his mindset holding him back. Seems to be a similar case here.

[Miracles]

The fact of the matter is Gas and Granolah were simply on another level from Moro. Goku got away with smoking Moro with a UI that only made him more stable than ever. However Goku needed to actually maintain that level of tranquility against the strongest in the universes.

[TobyS]

What's the strongest character a team of MUI Roshi, Kuririn, Tenshinhan and Yamcha could defeat together?

Well Roshi isn't much use, but as Kuririn is the strongest of the 3 and stronger than chaozu, probably the guy they fought in the Moro arc if they bust out some kikohos and kienzans, 3rd form freeza, Some TOP fodder, that's about it.

With MUI? How weak do you think they all are in base then?

Oh I thought it just meant Psudeo MUI Roshi from the manga, then the other guys regular.

If they all had fully mastered MUI then hmm easily Freeza.
Androids, Tenshinhan was already considered useful in taking 18 without 17 and useful for Gero to absorb.
First form Cell as a group.

The thing is if they don't have the white haired transformation to go along with it, all they really have is insane dodging abilities which will tire them out.

If they get the white haired boost then IDK they are closer to base Goku than Base Goku is to SS1, so pretty much anyone Goku can beat.

I guess they stop at Jiren and anyone after that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku heavily implies "true" UI is just Sign. He tells Gas he can let his emotions run in that form. Maybe it got a power boost because multipliers in Super seem to be fluid, but it doesn't seem to be a separate form and the silver-haired form in the neutral mindstate is still implied to be the strongest.

For anyone who read Bleach, I think you can trace a parallel here with how Ichigo has progressively gotten weaker from the Soul Society to the Arrancar arc because of his mindset holding him back. Seems to be a similar case here.

I think we have yet to see this all powerful, fully powered version of Silver UI. Other than when he fights Granolah, Goku never seems to lose any power. Vegeta even says Goku is the same as always vs Gas, instead of weaker. As I said, maybe Silver UI’s true power is only accessed when Goku uses his avatar.

It’s stated Goku and Vegeta are equals again when Vegeta obtains Ultra Ego. I’ll try to track down the interview to see if this is before or after True UI’s debut, but I think it’s before. So UE Vegeta = UI Goku, and True UI is above UE Vegeta.

[Yuji]

Goku heavily implies "true" UI is just Sign. He tells Gas he can let his emotions run in that form. Maybe it got a power boost because multipliers in Super seem to be fluid, but it doesn't seem to be a separate form and the silver-haired form in the neutral mindstate is still implied to be the strongest.

For anyone who read Bleach, I think you can trace a parallel here with how Ichigo has progressively gotten weaker from the Soul Society to the Arrancar arc because of his mindset holding him back. Seems to be a similar case here.

I think we have yet to see this all powerful, fully powered version of Silver UI. Other than when he fights Granolah, Goku never seems to lose any power. Vegeta even says Goku is the same as always vs Gas, instead of weaker. As I said, maybe Silver UI’s true power is only accessed when Goku uses his avatar.

It’s stated Goku and Vegeta are equals again when Vegeta obtains Ultra Ego. I’ll try to track down the interview to see if this is before or after True UI’s debut, but I think it’s before. So UE Vegeta = UI Goku, and True UI is above UE Vegeta.

Is TUI really above UE? Both couldn't defeat Gas and it took a team effort to take him down.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is TUI really above UE? Both couldn't defeat Gas and it took a team effort to take him down.

You're misremembering it. Adult Gas beat Vegeta to a pulp before he could harness enough power, while TUI Goku had a small upperhand over him and made him go into his Elder state.

I just found the interview. It's the infamous Broly interview, they start talking about Vegeta around 13:40 or so:
https://en.dragon-ball-official.com/news/01_392.html

Uchida says Vegeta hasn't really caught up but that they're sort of even now and asks who's stronger. Toyotaro avoids answering by just saying Vegeta is cool.

So I guess they don't have to be equals. UI Goku > UE Vegeta isn't contradicted here. But when they fight Gas, Vegeta says he continues to evolve while Goku is the same as before.

Spoiler:

UI Goku was clearly no match for Adult Gas, but TUI was. So was Goku weakened the whole Granolah Saga? Is Granolah weaker than Angel Moro? Might as well say we've never seen Goku use UI's full power.

[Miracles]

Actually Uchida says Vegeta and Goku are like equals now after unlocking the new power and Toyotaro agrees. Toyotaro was just silent on saying anymore than that. Which would lead into revealing Vegeta's new transformation.

[Hugo Boss]

I think the powerscalling in Granolah Arc can be resumed in something like this:

Black Freeza > Zombie Gas > Limit Break Granolah > Colossus UI Goku > Elder Gas > Black UI Goku > Power Unleashed Gas > Evolved UE Vegeta > Red-Eyes Granolah > Prime Gas > Silver UI Goku = UE Vegeta > Prime Granolah > SSBE Vegeta > Blue UI Goku > Red UI Goku > Freeza > SS Goku = SS Vegeta > Base UI Goku > Gas > Granolah > Bardock > Monaito > Macki > Oil > Elec

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the powerscalling in Granolah Arc can be resumed in something like this:

Black Freeza > Zombie Gas > Limit Break Granolah > Colossus UI Goku > Elder Gas > Black UI Goku > Power Unleashed Gas > Evolved UE Vegeta > Red-Eyes Granolah > Prime Gas > Silver UI Goku = UE Vegeta > Prime Granolah > SSBE Vegeta > Blue UI Goku > Red UI Goku > Freeza > SS Goku = SS Vegeta > Base UI Goku > Gas > Granolah > Bardock > Monaito > Macki > Oil > Elec

Elec asked Oil to take out Granolah in the beginning of the saga. I’d say the only Heeter that may not have improved since the Bardock fight was Elec.

[QuakingStar]

I think the powerscalling in Granolah Arc can be resumed in something like this:

Black Freeza > Zombie Gas > Limit Break Granolah > Colossus UI Goku > Elder Gas > Black UI Goku > Power Unleashed Gas > Evolved UE Vegeta > Red-Eyes Granolah > Prime Gas > Silver UI Goku = UE Vegeta > Prime Granolah > SSBE Vegeta > Blue UI Goku > Red UI Goku > Freeza > SS Goku = SS Vegeta > Base UI Goku > Gas > Granolah > Bardock > Monaito > Macki > Oil > Elec

I think this is prett much it, though Goku and Vegeta are implied to be the same level again when Frieza knocks them out so I moved Evolved UE Vegeta some.

Black Freeza > Zombie Gas > Limit Break Granolah > Ki Colossus UI Goku > Elder Gas > True UI Goku = Evovled UE Vegeta > Power Unleashed Gas > Red-Eyes Granolah

[Cipher]

Is Goku actually weaker from the Moro arc to Granolah? The inner conflict seems to have affected his mastery of Ultra Instinct. Sign is somehow more effective in battle but we see that in overall battle power the silver form is still top dog when at the end of the arc he pulls out the Ki avatar again.

I don’t think so. Granolah and Gas are just that much stronger than Moro, making the same Ultra Instinct look like nothing special in comparison. Just your traditional DB escalation.

I don’t think there’s anything implying the ki avatar is particularly stronger than Goku just using fisticuffs either. It’s just a response to scenarios where the size is needed for one reason or another (grappling giant Moro, tossing Gas). That’s just UI. When a kick is best, it’ll throw a kick. When a giant avatar is best, it’ll make one.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Going exclusively by the movie, is it possible Gohan (and maybe 17) are just SSJG level? If Piccolo is on pair with Goku and he one shot Gamma 2… The serializations making Gohan out to be Blue level might just be a highball on their part. Toriyama’s notes probably just said he vaguely caught up but lost on a double KO.

[Yuji]

Going exclusively by the movie, is it possible Gohan (and maybe 17) are just SSJG level? If Piccolo is on pair with Goku and he one shot Gamma 2… The serializations making Gohan out to be Blue level might just be a highball on their part. Toriyama’s notes probably just said he vaguely caught up but lost on a double KO.

If the Gammas are equal to Blue, then Ultimate Gohan necessarily has to be as well. The statement that the Gammas are equal to Goku and Vegeta can't make sense if we reduce them to SSG at this point. Even SSB is just an assumption.

At the very least the Gammas should equal the Blues from the Moro arc, which are significantly stronger than the Blues from the ToP. Gohan in the manga was already equal to Kefla who herself was at ToP Blue range, at least on the bottom range of the spectrum, so even though he got left behind during the Moro arc, it makes sense he can now catch up.

You could make the argument that Granolah arc/Superhero SSG Goku/Vegeta > Moro arc SSB Goku/Vegeta but that seems too ridiculous a power boost for no reason.

Orange Piccolo should be somewhere in that nebulous Blue Evolved/UI Sign tier above Blue. Remember Piccolo was holding Cell down, so he's no pushover.

17 definitely got left in the dust by this point, though. He was already on the lower end of the Blue tier and didn't do anything too impressive during the Moro arc.

[Mr Baggins]

There is very little distinction between "the serialization", or at least the manga's serialization, and "Toriyama's notes". Toriyama checks and approves (and even sometimes directly contributes to) every chapter.

17 and ToP Ultimate Gohan are on the lower to middle end of the Blue spectrum, whereas the Gammas and Super Hero's Ultimate Gohan are on the higher end, I'd wager. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

[ZombieVito]

There is very little distinction between "the serialization", or at least the manga's serialization, and "Toriyama's notes". Toriyama checks and approves (and even sometimes directly contributes to) every chapter.

17 and ToP Ultimate Gohan are on the lower to middle end of the Blue spectrum, whereas the Gammas and Super Hero's Ultimate Gohan are on the higher end, I'd wager. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

I disagree with Gohan being low to mid SSB tier. He's outright said to rival SSB Goku in the anime and that puts him at the minimum around 80% of him (Gap between Raditz and the Saibaimen).

It should be the same in the manga since he matched Kefla and Krillin said that him surpassing Goku was a real possibility.