Non-thread-worthy discussions

[Edwardmatthew]

Just some power level musings:

Why is it such a huge debate as to whether or not Gohan was a SSJ2 against Dabra when he clearly wasn't in the manga? He has the aura of a normal SSJ throughout the whole fight with no lightning at all, Toriyama never forgot to draw that for SSJ2 characters.

Also I find it odd that in BoG Beerus suggests Freeza > Base saiyans when in the Buu Saga and RoF it's suggested that Base saiyans > Piccolo

Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 Transformation against Dabra:
You are correct in stating that in the manga, Gohan's Super Saiyan 2 transformation against Dabra is not explicitly shown. In the manga, his transformation appears to be a regular Super Saiyan, as evidenced by the lack of the distinct electric aura typically associated with Super Saiyan 2.
However, in the anime adaptation (Dragon Ball Z), the animators did add the lightning-like aura to Gohan's transformation during the fight with Dabra, suggesting that he indeed reached the Super Saiyan 2 level. The reason for this discrepancy between the manga and the anime is not always clear, but it's not uncommon for the anime to take some creative liberties or expand on certain elements that might not have been explicitly depicted in the manga.

[Grimlock]

Didn't Toriyama famously admit he forgot he already made a Super Saiyan 2 when he was designing Super Saiyan 3? Allegedly, Super Saiyan 3 was going to be called Super Saiyan 2, until someone reminded him of Gohan's transformation in the Cell arc.

No. He forgot about Super Saiyan 2 during production of Movie 14, not during the original serialization. So if it were up to Toriyama, Goku would have only showed Super Saiyan and a "long-haired, eyebrowless Super Saiyan 2" to Beerus.

Didn't Toriyama famously admit he forgot he already made a Super Saiyan 2 when he was designing Super Saiyan 3? Allegedly, Super Saiyan 3 was going to be called Super Saiyan 2, until someone reminded him of Gohan's transformation in the Cell arc.

I wouldn't go as far as to call it a "plot hole". It's more of an inconsistency to use a weaker form when you can use a stronger form against an opponent you are struggling with. But yeah, there are no lightnings whatsoever during Gohan's fight, and Toriyama never forgot them before and after this fight. However, Gohan's hair is that of a Super Saiyan 2, as you can tell by the long bang and no thin strand of hair (smaller bang and a strand of hair is the design for Super Saiyan). Naturally, this isn't done consistently, even by Toriyama. So we are all gonna leave this planet without settling which form Gohan used against Dabura, unless someone decides to finally ask this question to Toriyama directly.

However, in the anime adaptation (Dragon Ball Z), the animators did add the lightning-like aura to Gohan's transformation during the fight with Dabra, suggesting that he indeed reached the Super Saiyan 2 level.

We must always be careful with this. Vegetto displayed lightnings when he transformed into Super Saiyan. Goku Black did the same, both for just that one panel. It's possible Toei added them just for visual effects.

[Koitsukai]

I wouldn't call that a plothole because there is an in-universe explanation for displaying SS2 first and then not being able to do it a second time.

Gohan turned SS2 vs Kibito because he still had some anger left from what Videl went through.
However, vs Dabura he was struggling to release his FP as noted by Vegeta, and also by Goku who calls him out on it right before they say goodbye to each other before fighting Majin Vegeta. "If you get angry, nobody will stop you" or something like that. Now, if Gohan had already been tapping into that vs Dabura, there would be no need for Goku to give him that pep talk.
It's no different from somebody performing wonderfully in training but struggling during the official event. Mindset.

[Grimlock]

Gotta say, I liked both One Piece trailers. If Netflix actually manage to get this right, I can finally get my hopes up for Avatar next year.

Imagine if they get both One Piece and Avatar right... I'll be demanding Dragon Ball from them as well. Please get them right, Netflix.

[nineko]

Say that Goten and Trunks (or Goku and Vegeta, it doesn't matter) perform the fusion dance; Gotenks (or Gogeta) appears in Metamorian attire. What happens if, at that point, Gotenks (or Gogeta) changes clothes, e.g. to wear a spacesuit or a scuba suit, to perform a particular task?

Does the discarded metamorian vest disappear in thin air when the fusion time runs out? Does it transform into the original clothes of the two people who performed the dance?

The only clothes-related precedent is that anime-only scene with naked Goten and naked Trunks resulting in naked Gotenks, but that's it. This would lead to assume that the Metamorian vest is indeed made up of matter transformed from the original clothes of the two people who performed the dance; no clothes means no available matter to be transformed.

There is so much fine print that needs to be explored here.

[ZeroNeonix]

Say that Goten and Trunks (or Goku and Vegeta, it doesn't matter) perform the fusion dance; Gotenks (or Gogeta) appears in Metamorian attire. What happens if, at that point, Gotenks (or Gogeta) changes clothes, e.g. to wear a spacesuit or a scuba suit, to perform a particular task?

Does the discarded metamorian vest disappear in thin air when the fusion time runs out? Does it transform into the original clothes of the two people who performed the dance?

The only clothes-related precedent is that anime-only scene with naked Goten and naked Trunks resulting in naked Gotenks, but that's it. This would lead to assume that the Metamorian vest is indeed made up of matter transformed from the original clothes of the two people who performed the dance; no clothes means no available matter to be transformed.

There is so much fine print that needs to be explored here.

I think the Metamoran fusion dance is a magical technique, so the rules probably use pretty simple logic. As you said, the clothes of the people fusing are magically transformed into the Metamoran clothes. When the fusion ends, the clothes are transformed back to normal. No clothes? Then there are no clothes to transform. Were the clothes damaged while fused? Then the unfused clothes will be in a similarly damaged state. Did you change clothes while fused? The Metamoran clothes unfuse into the pile you left them in. The new clothes are either torn up or randomly divided between the two of them.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think a good scene that shows Chichi FINALLY growing fond of Videl and loving her as her daughter in law... that was the scene where Spopovich beating her to death. She said "Someone please stop this! He's gonna kill her before she marries my Gohan" which at first glance is just her being bitchy and selfish but I see the kindness in the statement.

[Civic]

Is Android 8 purely mechanical like 16 or a cyborg like 17/18? He seems to donate energy to the spirit bomb used against Buu, but the manga makes it seem as if he has no organic material. I haven't seen the DB anime yet, is it different there? Am I confusing continuities?

[Grimlock]

I guess this is it. We are finally here. Today is the big day in the fandom. After so many decades, after so many episodes and chapters...




We have endured so much, we have gone through a lot. But the payoff is upon us, my brethrens. All the fights, all the trainings... It all has led to this very moment. The savior is about to attain a new transformation that will come down in history as the most epic of all transformations. August shall always be remembered as the month we all came together to witness the most anticipated debut of all time.

Welcome to the world, 超サイヤ人第３段階, Super Saiyajin Dai San Dankai!

What? You thought I was talking about another transformation? From another franchise? Why? I'm in a Dragon Ball forum, of course I would be talking about the only Dragon Ball transformation that appears in early August!

[MasenkoHA]

Is Android 8 purely mechanical like 16 or a cyborg like 17/18? He seems to donate energy to the spirit bomb used against Buu, but the manga makes it seem as if he has no organic material. I haven't seen the DB anime yet, is it different there? Am I confusing continuities?

In the Japanese anime General White mentioned they brought him back from the dead i.e he was once a human who died and was brought back as an Artificial Human.

I don't think that bit was in the manga, but I could have sworn there was some side note from Toriyama in the Artificial Human arc that he was one of the ones who was part organic.

[ZeroNeonix]

Is Android 8 purely mechanical like 16 or a cyborg like 17/18? He seems to donate energy to the spirit bomb used against Buu, but the manga makes it seem as if he has no organic material. I haven't seen the DB anime yet, is it different there? Am I confusing continuities?

In the Japanese anime General White mentioned they brought him back from the dead i.e he was once a human who died and was brought back as an Artificial Human.

I don't think that bit was in the manga, but I could have sworn there was some side note from Toriyama in the Artificial Human arc that he was one of the ones who was part organic.

Makes sense. The guy looks like Frankenstein's Monster, and Dr. Hedo would later do the same thing with his early androids.

[Grimlock]

Seeing a lot of "teen Goku" thanks to Dragon Ball Z Kakarot. He is nineteen years old. Yet a seventeen-year-old Gohan is called "adult". Stuff like this glitches my mind. It's funny, though.

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Seeing a lot of "teen Goku" thanks to Dragon Ball Z Kakarot. He is nineteen years old. Yet a seventeen-year-old Gohan is called "adult". Stuff like this glitches my mind. It's funny, though.

What also really confuses me is when Cell Games era Gohan is/has been referred to as "Teen Gohan" at times even though that description is better fitting for the Great Saiyaman and Majin Buu arcs, where he actually IS a teenager. In the former Gohan was about 10-11 years old which is a few years removed from that stage so yeah it's inaccurate.

[MasenkoHA]

Seeing a lot of "teen Goku" thanks to Dragon Ball Z Kakarot. He is nineteen years old. Yet a seventeen-year-old Gohan is called "adult". Stuff like this glitches my mind. It's funny, though.

What also really confuses me is when Cell Games era Gohan is/has been referred to as "Teen Gohan" at times even though that description is better fitting for the Great Saiyaman and Majin Buu arcs, where he actually IS a teenager. In the former Gohan was about 10-11 years old which is a few years removed from that stage so yeah it's inaccurate.

As far as I know the Teen Gohan moniker (who again is a year younger than "Kid" Goku) is some bullshit from Funimation or something. Cell Games era Gohan is a better name for that point in Gohan's life. Or Shonen Gohan, I guess

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

Seeing a lot of "teen Goku" thanks to Dragon Ball Z Kakarot. He is nineteen years old. Yet a seventeen-year-old Gohan is called "adult". Stuff like this glitches my mind. It's funny, though.

What also really confuses me is when Cell Games era Gohan is/has been referred to as "Teen Gohan" at times even though that description is better fitting for the Great Saiyaman and Majin Buu arcs, where he actually IS a teenager. In the former Gohan was about 10-11 years old which is a few years removed from that stage so yeah it's inaccurate.

As far as I know the Teen Gohan moniker (who again is a year younger than "Kid" Goku) is some bullshit from Funimation or something. Cell Games era Gohan is a better name for that point in Gohan's life. Or Shonen Gohan, I guess

I think that term was something FUNi either adopted or came up with, because yeah it doesn't fit Gohan with the age he is timeline wise as of the Cell Games, it's definitely better fitting after the time jump to the Saiyaman and then Buu arc once he actually becomes a teen.

[Civic]

In the video games these days he's normally identified as Gohan (youth) to set him apart from kid Gohan (Gohan up until the Cell saga/Games) amd teen Gohan (Buu saga).

[Civic]

Are Blutz waves from the original manga/anime or a dub invented thing?

[ZeroNeonix]

Are Blutz waves from the original manga/anime or a dub invented thing?

I looked up Blutz Waves in a Dragon Ball Wiki and found variations of the name from both the English manga and original Japanese sources.

[Grimlock]

I'm not sure if they directly mention being gogeta before or if the super cast identify z broly but if so that'd confirm their Broly version happened.

It doesn't need to. If that's Dragon Ball Super Goku and Vegeta (and they are), then obviously the Gogeta who fought Hearts is the same Gogeta who fought Broly (at any rate, the anime makes an indirect mention). Dragon Ball Z Broly has nothing to do here.

I'm curious if we can wedge moro in between the final two arcs or not. Granolah we can't because Goku doesnt recognise Bardock. How back to back was moro and granolah?

It's before Moro saga as well. As that's also a manga saga only and so they don't consider it.

[ABED]

Are Blutz waves from the original manga/anime or a dub invented thing?

Blutz/Bruits Waves are in the original story. The overly elaborate and unnecessary explanation sounds like a dub thing but it's one of the rare instances of Toriyama explaining a fantasy concept.