The Ocean Group and Dragon Ball

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

As this company based in Vancouver that was once heavily associated with the Dragon Ball franchise has recently passed its 50th anniversary in business I thought what better time to go over their history with the series?

The Ocean Group (originally known as Ocean Sound Corp) was established in 1974. Originally a recording studio for musicians but by the 90s they had expanded into voiceover and were dubbing anime from about 1993. Evidently the workload became so large they hired out an external company Westwood Media Production, which opened in 1995 to handle whatever work Ocean's own studio could no longer handle on their own. Karl Willems' description of Westwood as "an overflow thing", as I noted from a previous Anime Time Machine livestream gives credibility to this.

When it comes to Dragon Ball, most fans refer to the first 2 seasons of Dragon Ball Z dubbed in America as "the Ocean dub", although as we know for this portion of the series and the Pioneer dubs of Z movies 1-3 Ocean were only the recording studio and were not responsible for the direction of the dub, so "next dimension", "your father was a brilliant scientist" and such were all Funimation's decisions. Even Ian James Corlett rejects the popular fan term:

Ian James Corlett wrote:

"Something I’d like to correct here. This term “ocean dub” is wrong. When Funimation first came to us in Vancouver we produced with Josanne B Lovick productions & recorded at #dickandrogers. Even when we continued producing, Ocean was simply the recording studio in the beginning."

This also confirms Ocean had nothing to do with the 1995 BLT dub of original Dragon Ball episodes 1-13. Conversely Ocean did become more involved with the franchise sometime into the production of Funimation's Dragon Ball Z dub, as this article from 1997 states:

Ian Edwards wrote:

"The Ocean Group, which comprises distribution companies, pre- and post-production companies, and animation production companies, claims about 85% of the voice-over work in the city for animation through Ocean Sound.

As one of the most integrated animation companies in Vancouver, Ocean also acts as a coproduction partner on two series: Chester Dogbone (u.k./Canada/Australia) and Dragonball-z (u.s./Canada)."

There is also reason to believe Ocean helped distribute Dragon Ball Z in Canada, as one fan who has recorded many episodes noted the Ocean Group logo appeared at the end of every episode of Dragon Ball Z seasons 1-2 during their broadcast in Canada, which was not the case elsewhere, although only briefly returning for a few random episodes at the beginning of season 4, which Funimation produced and recorded inhouse. That is not to say Ocean's involvement was non-existent at that point, it was in the US, but in Canada it was a different story.

Fans have noted the YTV airings of the Funimation dub of Dragon Ball Z from episode 93 onward and reruns of 54-92 included alternate dialogue, added sound effects, different placement of the Faulconer Productions score, which indicates Ocean's role as a "co-production partner" may have meant having the freedom to edit the show as they liked for broadcast. It is likely with this in mind there was no reason Ocean couldn't use the same cast fans knew from the first 2 seasons even if Funimation were to drop them (which we know they did) and the same would apply for music, which Ocean had royalty-free use of courtesy of composers like Tom Keenlyside, John Mitchell and David Iris.

It was after the completion of season 2 Funimation decided to hire the Texas actors most fans think of to this day as the definitive English cast of Dragon Ball, first with their dub of Sleeping Princess In Devil's Castle in 1998 and then with Dragon Ball Z season 3 in 1999. In 2000 however rumours began to circulate on popular sites of the time like Planetnamek that the Ocean cast were somehow returning. Some fans have heard about Funimation having exclusivity agreements with Cartoon Network, which may have had something to do with them no longer distributing their dub in Canada, leaving YTV to turn to Ocean. As Arian noted Ocean did indeed take over the distribution of episodes at some point. YTV also reportedly later began feeling like they were given second class treatment compared to Cartoon Network in the US as a result of receiving tapes too late.

Aside from all fans had heard over the years no official explanation was ever given for why this alternate English dub of Dragon Ball Z episodes 108-276 (edited numbering) was created. Much of the alleged mystery seeming to stem from Scott McNeil's comments to fans about not knowing who funded the dub, although fans have long speculated it to be AB Groupe, who contrary to popular belief there is no evidence of them being the producers.

Our own NitroEX has theorized it may be because of Ocean and AB Groupe having a history of working together as there is evidence of reps for both companies being present at Mipcom:

NitroEX wrote:

How the AB Groupe connection began is still a mystery and I can only speculate but I've recently learned a little bit about Mipcom and I suspect it may have begun there. AB Groupe would have attended these events along with influential people within the Vancouver dubbing industry such as Josanne B. Lovick (who Ian Corlett and other actors speak highly of in terms of bringing anime and dubbing work to Vancouver). I don't know too much about French cartoons but I do know Ocean had dubbed a few, one of them being Spiff and Hercules, and they've obviously dubbed more recently with the CGI Asterix being the most notable. It's not out of the question for them to have had industry connections in France back then.

Indeed Brian Drummond was called in to record in May 2000, which was after only the first 26 episodes of Dragon Ball Z had aired in the UK and Ireland, so it seems plausible AB Groupe realized quite early on Funimation's dub would be too expensive to license long term and because Ocean had recording rights they could offer AB a cheaper alternative to distribute to their clients in Europe like the UK and Dutch branches of Cartoon Network, Yorin in the Netherlands as well as Kanaal 2 in Belgium and SubTV in Finland later on. Reportedly it was commonly accepted Ocean were not directly responsible for this dub but the aforementioned Westwood Media were.

Westwood's involvement has been disputed as only Kirby Morrow is known to have listed it on his resume, whereas other actors like Michael Dobson, Michael Coleman, Jillian Michaels, Tabitha St. Germain listed Airwave Sound. Saffron Henderson appeared to recall recording at Westwood however. I spoke to Rob Bakewell who was the talent co-ordinator at Westwood since before Dragon Ball Z returned to Vancouver but he has no recollection of them being in any way involved in the series so where the connection lies remains a mystery.

Indeed way back in 2006/2007 an employee of Ocean confirmed to fans on a forum not only was Airwaves the studio that most of the English dub that aired exclusively in Europe and Canada (from 168 onwards) but that Ocean was heavily involved in most aspects of its production. The post is no longer available on said forum but has been archived here:

Spoiler:

Hey everyone,

I work with Ocean Group.
I just wanted to shed some light on the Dragonball Z topic you guys were talking about.

Approx. 80% of DBZ was recorded at Airwaves Studios.
However, this was because there was no time available at Ocean's production studios.
Airwaves' physical studios and their voice director were used for voice recording only

Ocean's creative staff provided project development, scripts, production, casting, talent coordination,
overall sound design, video master preparation, mixing, etc etc., all at Ocean's studios.

I can definitely see how this may have been confusing, so hopefully its all cleared up!


Always willing to help,

Corey Fischer
Ocean Productions

The dubs of original Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball GT were moved to Calgary's Blue Water Studios, which opened in 2000 because of union disputes. Keep in mind Blue Water and Ocean are registered to the same shell company so it would still be accurate to refer to their productions that are independent of other companies like Funimation as "Ocean dubs".

The "recording rights" Ian James Corlett spoke of also appear to have remained until at least 2010-2014, Robo4900 suggested this may have been what allowed Ocean to record and self-produce their dub of Kai. This was confirmed by Diana Gage to SX10. We know Ocean edited Funimation's dub for Nicktoons, so it is plausible that the same agreement they had for YTV carried over. I assume Funimation didn't want to edit Kai themselves because Nicktoons apparently had tight deadlines for episodes as Chris Sabat told fans on Facebook at the time.

In short happy 50th anniversary to Ocean Studios, may we all one day get to see your Kai dub and you get to work on Dragon Ball again.

[Danfun64]

One thing I've been curious about was the scripts used for the Blue Water dubs. With Westwood Z, pretty much the entire thing is based on the Funimation Z scripts. With Blue Water DB and GT, it gets iffier. My impression for the former is that it mixed Funimation scripts, new scripts based on the Japanese, and even some usage of the French dub scripts (I don't speak French, but there were a couple times where episode titles matched the French dub, along with the Nyoibo/Power Pole being referred to as the "magic stick" at one point, which the Big Green dub did. It also handled Piccolo and Kami speaking Namekian the same way the French dub did IIRC, having them straight up speak the same language as everyone else without anyone really acknowledging what they said at the time). GT, I have no idea, but I'm almost certain the Funimation scripts weren't used at all.

[MasenkoHA]

. My impression for the former is that it mixed Funimation scripts, new scripts based on the Japanese, and even some usage of the French dub scripts (I don't speak French, but there were a couple times where episode titles matched the French dub, along with the Nyoibo/Power Pole being referred to as the "magic stick" at one point, which the Big Green dub did. I

Supposedly in the Blue Water dub of episode 75, Roshi mistakenly refers to Son Gohan as Goku's "flesh and blood" and apparently that same error was made in the French dub.

They seemed to have gotten most of their assets from the French dub so it would make sense if they got scripts from them too

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

GT, I have no idea, but I'm almost certain the Funimation scripts weren't used at all.

Blue Water GT's scripts were based on original Japanese to English translations, and yes there is no evidence to support them being based on Funimation's scripts at all. Ocean caught up with Funimation by the time Ken Morrison sent GT to be dubbed at Blue Water Studios, in fact GT aired in its entirety in the UK and Ireland between March and June 2003, and the Netherlands between June and October of the same year all before Funimation's dub premiered in the US in November.

Supposedly in the Blue Water dub of episode 75, Roshi mistakenly refers to Son Gohan as Goku's "flesh and blood" and apparently that same error was made in the French dub.

They seemed to have gotten most of their assets from the French dub so it would make sense if they got scripts from them too

Roshi doesn't say it, he said "You see the true identity of the masked fighter is none other than Gohan, Goku's grandfather", although the narrator does indeed say "Can Goku knowingly fight his own flesh and blood or will he concede the match and his search for the seventh and final Dragon Ball?".

I'm not familiar with what is said in the French dub but it would be interesting to see what was said in the same episode.

Robo4900 did a lot of comparisons between the two English dubs and the Simmons/Mandelin subs for the original series, and what he noticed was this.

Generally Blue Water Dragon Ball just referenced Funimation's scripts early on, as their inhouse dub premiered in the US in 2001 the scripts were available, Ocean however did a lot of correcting and where there were issues in Funimation's dub Ocean used Japanese to English translations (which were in a similar vein to GT as both dubs shared a lot of the same writers). So although the first 30 or so Blue Water Dragon Ball episodes varied in faithfulness they tended to be much closer to the original intent than Funimation's dub, and as the dub went on they were referencing those scripts from Texas less and less. Episode 45 was the first fully original script disregarding Funimation's scripts entirely and is a damn near perfect translation.

My guess would be that since Canada is a largely bilingual English and French speaking country the Blue Water writers were well versed in both languages, if not fluent so they may have used French dub scripts as a backup or to save time (all 153 episodes were dubbed in less than 2 years, so I imagine it must have been challenging meeting deadlines at times) out of convenience.

In any case the Blue Water dubs were clearly made with the intent of faithfully representing the show in English and I must applaud Alex Kind, Geoffrey Way, Mike Bridges, Paul Coldrick, Rob Gerein, Aaron Nordean, Cisco McLaren, Jennifer Balabanov, Ross Clarke, Jason Cushing (GT only) and Scott Jackson for all their work, it was quite the admirable job and I don't think they've ever been given the credit they deserve.

[Danfun64]

Robo4900 did a lot of comparisons between the two English dubs and the Simmons/Mandelin subs for the original series...

They were done in 2018/2019, right? I worked together with Robo4900 on those. They largely stopped close to the end of the Fortuneteller Baba saga IIRC.

I know he likes it better than the Funimation DB dub overall, but I personally think some of his praise for it accuracy wise is overblown. Granted, we stopped before the available recordings of the dub turned into complete shit..... which was when the dub was really letting go of Funimation as a source. So I can't say for certain the quality of what came afterwards unless new sources reveal themselves.

To me, the Blue Water dub does some things right that Funimation did wrong, and vice versa. Some examples of BW changes or errors in the Pilaf saga include include Roshi referring to Baby Gamera as a "Turtle Taxi" and the dialog of Mai and Shuu next to the mushroom being changed into something romantic instead of roleplaying how their conversation with Pilaf was about to go. Meanwhile in the Fortuneteller Baba saga, while Funimation's explanation of the Devilmite beam wasn't perfect, it was a lot more accurate than the Blue Water dub describing it as corrupting its opponents, with the narrator talking about the possibility of it turning Goku into pure evil. Is that nonsense from the French dub?

On the other hand, the dialog Captain Dark (one of General Blue's men) said to his men while airborne was a lot closer to the original in the Blue Water dub, while in the Funimation dub it was some nonsense about "Hoagie Night".

It's been so long ago that I don't remember all the details. Both dubs have their ups and downs, reasons to prefer one over the other. At this point I want to know what the Animax dub is like...

[TechExpert2021]

Episode 45 was the first fully original script disregarding Funimation's scripts entirely and is a damn near perfect translation.

Unfortunately, episode 45 is the only episode of the Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball that has been completely lost as that episode of the dub hasn't been found in a long time. Episode 71 of the OG DB Blue Water dub is partially lost as the first half is completely missing.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

They were done in 2018/2019, right? I worked together with Robo4900 on those. They largely stopped close to the end of the Fortuneteller Baba saga IIRC.

I believe so, I haven't seen the complete notes myself but in the Rewatch threads Robo4900 did note some corrections Blue Water continued to make after that point, so I imagine he must have spot checked the remaining Funimation episodes at least.

Some of the fixes Blue Water made to Funimation's scripts after Fortuneteller Baba include:

• The implied feud between the Crane Hermit and Tao Pai Pai in episode 91
• Tambourine's implication about the father bear being dead in episode 106
• Spoiling the reveal about Kami and the Demon King being extra-terrestrials, namely:
  • Goku saying Shen is an alien at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, which ironically conflicts the Funimation Z dub that's meant to take place afterward where Piccolo and Kami didn't know they were from another world until Vegeta and Nappa told Piccolo
  • King Piccolo's comment about how he fought beings all over the universe

Other odd decisions from Funimation's dub are also fixed in Blue Water like:

• The portly announcer's line about flash photography not being permitted within the gymnasium in episode 85
• Tenshinhan putting hat on Chaoitzu's head because he doesn't want him to get a cold in episode 87
• Goku saying he needed to wash his hands in episode 88 when he leaves restaurant table (in the Blue Water dub he says "I'll be right back", which is closer to him needing to use the toilet)
• Also, in episode 88 another issue was Jackie asking Wolf-Man to stop talking and continue his fight
• The joke during Roshi and Crane's telepathic conversation in episode 97 where Roshi comments on him having "Nice ninja pyjamas"
• Goku sensing Piccolo's ki in episode 117 being changed to him sensing Piccolo's power level in Funimation's dub to appease Z dub fans, Blue Water undid this
• Piccolo Day being May 13th (in Blue Water's dub King Piccolo says "Today's date shall henceforth be known as Piccolo Day")

There are probably more, but I'd need to do my own comparisons to see if I could find more. I'm considering checking the Funimation Z scripts with the corresponding Westwood dub episodes soon though because contrary to belief there are a lot of line deviations in Westwood's dub. They aren't near complete revisions like Blue Water Dragon Ball and aren't any closer to the original intent but it's still interesting they are there.

Some examples of BW changes or errors in the Pilaf saga include include Roshi referring to Baby Gamera as a "Turtle Taxi" and the dialog of Mai and Shuu next to the mushroom being changed into something romantic instead of roleplaying how their conversation with Pilaf was about to go. Meanwhile in the Fortuneteller Baba saga, while Funimation's explanation of the Devilmite beam wasn't perfect, it was a lot more accurate than the Blue Water dub describing it as corrupting its opponents, with the narrator talking about the possibility of it turning Goku into pure evil. Is that nonsense from the French dub?

Those were good fixes too. It's only really in the first 30(ish) episodes there are oddities like that with Funimation's dub being more accurate, and there's that line where Nam implies he will kill Goku in the Blue Water dub (he says he will "ascend to the Gods" and then when Goku wakes up he says "He lives?"). Kind of bizarre and dark for a TV dub.

But yes, Blue Water Dragon Ball isn't a perfect dub, although once it gets into the Red Ribbon Army arc it's a solid alternative to Funimation's dub as from that point there's no comparison between the two in terms of accuracy. I don't think its really overblown, I'd actually say for the longest time what that dub did right was overlooked, and even today I don't hear many people recommend it on that basis or even talk positively about it. I'd say it's Funimation's dub of original Dragon Ball that gets too much praise, as what it does better than Blue Water is only early on in both dubs. There's also a lot more liberties early in Funimation's dub, like the mention of Black's sister.

I know he likes it better than the Funimation DB dub overall, but I personally think some of his praise for it accuracy wise is overblown. Granted, we stopped before the available recordings of the dub turned into complete shit..... which was when the dub was really letting go of Funimation as a source. So I can't say for certain the quality of what came afterwards unless new sources reveal themselves.

Well, some good news there.

New stereo sources for the entire run of Blue Water Dragon Ball and Westwood Z have been found and will be synced to the existing remasters. That of course includes episode 71, which has long been mostly lost, so soon we will all be able to rewatch that episode in its entirety. Keep an eye on DBZImran's Twitter over the next week, as a lot of that stuff is coming, including a broadcast collection for anyone that just wants to watch these episodes as they aired on CNX and Toonami UK in the early 2000s.

So Blue Water Dragon Ball will finally be available in good audio quality without the skips and missing lines, and Westwood Z will receive a massive upgrade over the existing recordings (which were not all in stereo). All these Canadian dubs will sound better than they ever have (unless you had a high end TV in those years).

I'm so excited because I grew up with these dubs, my family only got a DVD recorder in 2006 after they all went off the air and I always regretted we didn't get one sooner because the few episodes I recorded on VHS went to garbage from overplaying.

It's been so long ago that I don't remember all the details. Both dubs have their ups and downs, reasons to prefer one over the other. At this point I want to know what the Animax dub is like...

I asked Dave Bridges who played adult Goku in that dub, he said they always translate from the Japanese version. My understanding of Animax dubs is that they are too literal to the point of sounding stiff and unnatural. It also doesn't help that they hire people with little or no acting experience.

I too would love to see the Animax dub and find out how it compares, but sadly its almost impossible to find recordings of these Southeast Asian dubs, and even the dubs that are found its only just a few episodes, so it will be a miracle in itself if we ever get that much of the Dragon Ball dub. It's still astounding none of Animax Dragon Ball has surfaced by now though, Yu Yu Hakusho aired around the same timeslots and there's some episodes out there. Animax Dragon Ball... its just a few seconds from Russell Wait's demo reel and lines here and there from promos but aside from that nothing.

Unfortunately, episode 45 is the only episode of the Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball that has been completely lost as that episode of the dub hasn't been found in a long time. Episode 71 of the OG DB Blue Water dub is partially lost as the first half is completely missing.

Episode 45 isn't lost, that's actually the episode Danfun64 is referring to that fixes the nonsensical "hoagie night" line in Funimation's dub. For obvious reasons I can't point you in the right direction here on the forums, but for years we have had 152 full episodes of this dub being shared, although that's all about to change.

You are correct that episode 71 was mostly lost though, until now. Watch out for that because it's coming, not only that it will sound great.

[TheGreatness25]

Spoiler:

They were done in 2018/2019, right? I worked together with Robo4900 on those. They largely stopped close to the end of the Fortuneteller Baba saga IIRC.

I believe so, I haven't seen the complete notes myself but in the Rewatch threads Robo4900 did note some corrections Blue Water continued to make after that point, so I imagine he must have spot checked the remaining Funimation episodes at least.

Some of the fixes Blue Water made to Funimation's scripts after Fortuneteller Baba include:

• The implied feud between the Crane Hermit and Tao Pai Pai in episode 91
• Tambourine's implication about the father bear being dead in episode 106
• Spoiling the reveal about Kami and the Demon King being extra-terrestrials, namely:
  • Goku saying Shen is an alien at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, which ironically conflicts the Funimation Z dub that's meant to take place afterward where Piccolo and Kami didn't know they were from another world until Vegeta and Nappa told Piccolo
  • King Piccolo's comment about how he fought beings all over the universe

Other odd decisions from Funimation's dub are also fixed in Blue Water like:

• The portly announcer's line about flash photography not being permitted within the gymnasium in episode 85
• Tenshinhan putting hat on Chaoitzu's head because he doesn't want him to get a cold in episode 87
• Goku saying he needed to wash his hands in episode 88 when he leaves restaurant table (in the Blue Water dub he says "I'll be right back", which is closer to him needing to use the toilet)
• Also, in episode 88 another issue was Jackie asking Wolf-Man to stop talking and continue his fight
• The joke during Roshi and Crane's telepathic conversation in episode 97 where Roshi comments on him having "Nice ninja pyjamas"
• Goku sensing Piccolo's ki in episode 117 being changed to him sensing Piccolo's power level in Funimation's dub to appease Z dub fans, Blue Water undid this
• Piccolo Day being May 13th (in Blue Water's dub King Piccolo says "Today's date shall henceforth be known as Piccolo Day")

There are probably more, but I'd need to do my own comparisons to see if I could find more. I'm considering checking the Funimation Z scripts with the corresponding Westwood dub episodes soon though because contrary to belief there are a lot of line deviations in Westwood's dub. They aren't near complete revisions like Blue Water Dragon Ball and aren't any closer to the original intent but it's still interesting they are there.

Some examples of BW changes or errors in the Pilaf saga include include Roshi referring to Baby Gamera as a "Turtle Taxi" and the dialog of Mai and Shuu next to the mushroom being changed into something romantic instead of roleplaying how their conversation with Pilaf was about to go. Meanwhile in the Fortuneteller Baba saga, while Funimation's explanation of the Devilmite beam wasn't perfect, it was a lot more accurate than the Blue Water dub describing it as corrupting its opponents, with the narrator talking about the possibility of it turning Goku into pure evil. Is that nonsense from the French dub?

Those were good fixes too. It's only really in the first 30(ish) episodes there are oddities like that with Funimation's dub being more accurate, and there's that line where Nam implies he will kill Goku in the Blue Water dub (he says he will "ascend to the Gods" and then when Goku wakes up he says "He lives?"). Kind of bizarre and dark for a TV dub.

But yes, Blue Water Dragon Ball isn't a perfect dub, although once it gets into the Red Ribbon Army arc it's a solid alternative to Funimation's dub as from that point there's no comparison between the two in terms of accuracy. I don't think its really overblown, I'd actually say for the longest time what that dub did right was overlooked, and even today I don't hear many people recommend it on that basis or even talk positively about it. I'd say it's Funimation's dub of original Dragon Ball that gets too much praise, as what it does better than Blue Water is only early on in both dubs. There's also a lot more liberties early in Funimation's dub, like the mention of Black's sister.

I know he likes it better than the Funimation DB dub overall, but I personally think some of his praise for it accuracy wise is overblown. Granted, we stopped before the available recordings of the dub turned into complete shit..... which was when the dub was really letting go of Funimation as a source. So I can't say for certain the quality of what came afterwards unless new sources reveal themselves.

Well, some good news there.

New stereo sources for the entire run of Blue Water Dragon Ball and Westwood Z have been found and will be synced to the existing remasters. That of course includes episode 71, which has long been mostly lost, so soon we will all be able to rewatch that episode in its entirety. Keep an eye on DBZImran's Twitter over the next week, as a lot of that stuff is coming, including a broadcast collection for anyone that just wants to watch these episodes as they aired on CNX and Toonami UK in the early 2000s.

So Blue Water Dragon Ball will finally be available in good audio quality without the skips and missing lines, and Westwood Z will receive a massive upgrade over the existing recordings (which were not all in stereo). All these Canadian dubs will sound better than they ever have (unless you had a high end TV in those years).

I'm so excited because I grew up with these dubs, my family only got a DVD recorder in 2006 after they all went off the air and I always regretted we didn't get one sooner because the few episodes I recorded on VHS went to garbage from overplaying.

It's been so long ago that I don't remember all the details. Both dubs have their ups and downs, reasons to prefer one over the other. At this point I want to know what the Animax dub is like...

I asked Dave Bridges who played adult Goku in that dub, he said they always translate from the Japanese version. My understanding of Animax dubs is that they are too literal to the point of sounding stiff and unnatural. It also doesn't help that they hire people with little or no acting experience.

I too would love to see the Animax dub and find out how it compares, but sadly its almost impossible to find recordings of these Southeast Asian dubs, and even the dubs that are found its only just a few episodes, so it will be a miracle in itself if we ever get that much of the Dragon Ball dub. It's still astounding none of Animax Dragon Ball has surfaced by now though, Yu Yu Hakusho aired around the same timeslots and there's some episodes out there. Animax Dragon Ball... its just a few seconds from Russell Wait's demo reel and lines here and there from promos but aside from that nothing.

Unfortunately, episode 45 is the only episode of the Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball that has been completely lost as that episode of the dub hasn't been found in a long time. Episode 71 of the OG DB Blue Water dub is partially lost as the first half is completely missing.

Episode 45 isn't lost, that's actually the episode Danfun64 is referring to that fixes the nonsensical "hoagie night" line in Funimation's dub. For obvious reasons I can't point you in the right direction here on the forums, but for years we have had 152 full episodes of this dub being shared, although that's all about to change.

You are correct that episode 71 was mostly lost though, until now. Watch out for that because it's coming, not only that it will sound great.

That's pretty exciting stuff! Though, I wonder how these things are all suddenly surfacing all at once here in the distant future of 2024.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

That's pretty exciting stuff! Though, I wonder how these things are all suddenly surfacing all at once here in the distant future of 2024.

Same with anything I guess, hoarders being stubborn. Clearly episode 71 has been floating around in some circles as it was known the title was The Deadly and Bloody Battle. The original broadcast has faded from my memory but having seen a clip just the other day (I don't have the full episode but I believe that will be shared in a few days) I can confirm the claim only the Bulma flash scene is left as-is with the exception of the shots of her boobs being cut was true. Granted you could argue the fans spreading these rumours were going off memory from what they saw on Toonami UK or YTV in 2004 or 2005 but I find it unlikely their memories would be as clear unless they had a recording to rewatch because that was a long time ago. As we can see on this very forum most people had difficulty remembering the finer details, often through a case of mandela confusing it with the more widely seen Toonami US TV edit.

[MasenkoHA]

Neither the Funimation dub or Blue Water dub of the original Dragon Ball are really that good and it's going to be more of a "The Devil You Know" preference for most tbh..

The Funimation dub takes a Saturday Morning Cartoon approach where most of the actors are doing "voices" like Bad Launch's Tough Girl from the Bronx voice and Roshi's Old Prospector voice. This makes it a lot harder for the actors to emote so you get scenes like the reaction to Krillin's death in episode 102 where everyone sounds terrible because they're all trying to convey sadness while keeping their derpy voices. The dub also really really liked its cartoonish accents. So you get things like the King's Guard having a cartoon French accent or A Chinese Restaurant owner being Italian because...stereotypical Italian moustache? That was a big thing in both American cartoons and American dubs of Japanese animation for kids at the time though


The Blue Water dub goes for a much more naturalistic approach, which would be preferable but unfortunately most of the cast just can't act so it makes for a really amateur hour that feels more like a fandub than a professional production.


Script wise I'm more familiar with Funimation. Obviously the Pilaf saga is just copy and paste of their 1995 scripts with BLT with some corrections, a few mild deviations, and adjustments for the unaltered footage. The Tournament saga did seen to make an actual effort to stay close-ish to the Japanese scripts. They were clearly uncomfortable with the sexual and religious content but otherwise that arc hovers around B. Then they started getting way more liberal with the scripts around the Red Ribbon arc. Then by the Tienshinhan arc they're going buck wild with the punch up humor and making shit up just because. The Piccolo sagas are a big mess with the aforementioned Kami and Piccolo already know their aliens even though they shouldn't, dropping the ball on explaining Kami's role, and not wanting to acknowledge Piccolo and his children are supposed to be demons (mentioning the Ma Kanji means Devil and referring to as the Mark of the Demon all of once aside) so you get awkward bits like Korin explaining that Krillin and the others can't pass on to Otherworld where it ends up sounding like Shenron being destroyed has something to do with it instead of because they were killed by mazoku.


The Blue Water seems to be a weird hodgepodge of the Funimation dub (which I know last until at least the end of the Red Ribbon saga because Red degrading Black until Black kills him is word for word the same as the Funi dialog), the Japanese version and quite possibly the French dub (assumed by the weird bits that come from neither the Japanese or Funi version). To their credit they do things like having Goku call himself Son Goku in the first episode and refer to Piccolo as The Demon King and do a better job with the whole Kami thing. I'm actually curious if the bits that are closer to the Japanese version didn't come from the French dub as well.

[Robo4900]

FWIW, this material suddenly surfacing is basically just blind luck. Someone reached out to someone who happened to have 152/153 episodes plus all of Z, then someone else reached out to someone else who had all 153 plus all of GT...

It's just blind luck. Some people happened to have it, and were open to sharing when asked. Nothing to do with the attention-seekers and hoarders who'll never give up their stashes.

I'm collaborating with DBZImran and the other folks involved on assessing the material, properly organising it, etc., though my contributions are thus far quite small.

IMO the Blue Water dub is head and shoulders above the Funi dub. Danfun and I always argued about this, but it comes down to this: In the first ~20-30 episodes, they were clearly working off Funi's scripts and mainly rewriting for better dialogue quality, not for translation quality. Around episode 40-50, they're making a lot of corrections, and by the time you're at the end of the Red Ribbon sagas, they're pretty much writing their own scripts. (IIRC the first fully-original BW script is the theme park episode where there's an assassin trying to steal the balls and Bulma and Yamcha broke up. Its script is comparable to the BW dub of GT in terms of being accurate, and the dialogue being good but also TV-safe.)

One point of contention Danfun and I often ran against was wording; I always argued that the wording being different from Simmons'/Mandelin's subs doesn't mean the translation is less accurate, it just means it's a different translation. Funi's dub, being originally based on the subs' translation, would naturally use closer wordings when the line wasn't totally changed or fabricated. The actual spirit and intention was IMO closer in the BW dub, overall.
He's also a lot fussier about terminology than I am.

I do remember it coming up during the comparisons that Danfun found the BW dub overall more enjoyable though. Nicer atmosphere.

I personally also think Chris Sabat played King Piccolo completely wrong. Meanwhile the BW casting of King Piccolo was basically perfect in terms of his personality.

I'm also a big fan of Blue Water Oolong. Their Krillin is great fun as well.

BW's Goku (Zoe Slusar) isn't as good as Saffron Henderson, but as someone who's always thought Stephanie Nadolny was a terrible casting, I'll gladly take Slusar over her.

[GhostEmperorX]

I personally also think Chris Sabat played King Piccolo completely wrong.

Couldn't agree more with this, they really couldn't have dropped the ball any harder than they did with this casting. No attempt was made to fit with the character as he was, and if I remember correctly they made a much better choice when it came to his other half back in Z.
On that note, I haven't ever seen the BW version, did both Piccolo Daimao and Kami have the same voice actor there as in the JP version?

[TechExpert2021]

Unfortunately, episode 45 is the only episode of the Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball that has been completely lost as that episode of the dub hasn't been found in a long time. Episode 71 of the OG DB Blue Water dub is partially lost as the first half is completely missing.

Episode 45 isn't lost, that's actually the episode Danfun64 is referring to that fixes the nonsensical "hoagie night" line in Funimation's dub. For obvious reasons I can't point you in the right direction here on the forums, but for years we have had 152 full episodes of this dub being shared, although that's all about to change.

Sorry, I meant the episode after 45 (episode 46), which hasn't been found yet.

[MasenkoHA]

I personally also think Chris Sabat played King Piccolo completely wrong.

Couldn't agree more with this, they really couldn't have dropped the ball any harder than they did with this casting. No attempt was made to fit with the character as he was, and if I remember correctly they made a much better choice when it came to his other half back in Z.
On that note, I haven't ever seen the BW version, did both Piccolo Daimao and Kami have the same voice actor there as in the JP version?

Yes, they follow the Japanese version where King Piccolo and Kami share a voice actor (Mike Shepherd) and Piccolo Jr has his own actor (Ethan Cole)


I do think there is a logic to Kami, Piccolo Jr, and King Piccolo all being voiced by the same guy in the Funimation dub but we also know that's more to do with them taking advantage of Sabat being a salary employee and having him voice as many characters as possible since he's also voicing Turtle, Shenron, Mr.Popo, Korin, Colonel Silver, Staff Officer Black, and Yamcha

Episode 45 isn't lost, that's actually the episode Danfun64 is referring to that fixes the nonsensical "hoagie night" line in Funimation's dub. For obvious reasons I can't point you in the right direction here on the forums, but for years we have had 152 full episodes of this dub being shared, although that's all about to change.

Episode 45 was the fair in West City episode. The hoagie night line came from Captain Dark in episode 47 or 48 and wasn't really "nonsensical" as the context was him telling the subordinates he wanted to be done with the mission and get back to headquarters soon because it was hoagie night. It was a "Haha get it? Because he's fat!?" joke which obviously doesn't age the dub very well.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

BW's Goku (Zoe Slusar) isn't as good as Saffron Henderson, but as someone who's always thought Stephanie Nadolny was a terrible casting, I'll gladly take Slusar over her.

Caitlynne Medrek and Zoe Slusar were fantastic as Pan and kid Goku, they were 13 and 14 respectively when Ocean were dubbing GT. Nice authentic touch to have actors who were age appropriate. It's also a rarity in anime dubs from what I know. I'm not sure what either has done since but I imagine if they kept acting they would be even better now in whatever roles they play because they've had experience.

Sorry, I meant the episode after 45 (episode 46), which hasn't been found yet.

No, episode 46 is in circulation and has been for a long time along with the rest of the 152 full episodes.

DBZImran talked about his search for the entirety of the Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball. Most of it was missing from about 2008 except for 5 episodes but then in 2010 he found almost the full series in Andyscot's IRC channel. At that point the only episodes missing were 71, 92 and 124. 9e and 124 were found within a year, but 71 remained lost for the longest time and it was only a decade, maybe less after the really poor quality version with the first few minutes left out was found.

Considering all this, yes, it is quite the stroke of good luck were now going to have the entirety of the Canadian dubs in good quality.

Episode 45 was the fair in West City episode. The hoagie night line came from Captain Dark in episode 47 or 48 and wasn't really "nonsensical" as the context was him telling the subordinates he wanted to be done with the mission and get back to headquarters soon because it was hoagie night. It was a "Haha get it? Because he's fat!?" joke which obviously doesn't age the dub very well.

Wasn't episode 45 the episode where in the Funimation dub a Red Ribbon Army officer says:

"Alright men, listen up! The circus is coming to town in five! You know the drill. I want this one strictly by the book. Tonight is hoagie night, and we're not going to miss it!"

For what it's worth the general idea of "Move out men, be on guard" that's stated in Mandelin's subs and the Blue Water dub is superficially there but it's dressed up in fluff and fancy words.

Compare that to the Mandelin subs:

"While we're only up against an old man and a woman, we have no idea what kind of secret weapons or machines they might have! Don't let your guard down!"


Or Blue Water:

"Even though our enemy consists of an old man, a young woman, and a turtle, we believe they are heavily armed. Be careful out there!"

I think it's clear which dub was written with the intent of faithfully representing the scene. There are omissions in there, like you could argue in Blue Water an understanding of how their enemy is armed is implied whereas in Mandelin's subs it's "we don't know" but wherever Blue Water takes liberties it's to create smooth, natural sounding dialogue, which is what's most important. It doesn't stray too far because the scene is meant to convey the "be on guard" message, which Blue Water still achieves without hyperbole.

[MasenkoHA]

Wasn't episode 45 the episode where in the Funimation dub a Red Ribbon Army officer says:

"Alright men, listen up! The circus is coming to town in five! You know the drill. I want this one strictly by the book. Tonight is hoagie night, and we're not going to miss it!"

. No, again, episode 45 was the fair episode with Hasky and her goons. The quote in question was from Captain Dark who wasn't even in that episode. The raid on Kame Island happened a few episodes later.

At any rate, stuff like this where the original intent is kept but spruced up to be "funnier' never bothered me as much as an out and out rewrite and I never got the point in making a big deal out of them

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Fair enough, I should have checked the exact episode this was from. That's my fault for not reading Robo4900's post in the Rewatch threads where he made these comparisons right as he didn't specify he was referring to episode 45, I was just guessing he was because it was in relation to you responding to his comments on episode 45 but it was more "this is why Blue Water is more faithful in this arc in general" not a single episode.

At any rate, stuff like this where the original intent is kept but spruced up to be "funnier' never bothered me as much as an out and out rewrite and I never got the point in making a big deal out of them

I think it's the general attitude "we can do this better", which comes across ignorant to people. It's like making the show funnier is Funimation's priority and being faithful is secondary, which doesn't set a good precedent for the dubbing industry.

By the same token you hear people criticizing Funimation's Super dub for punching up dialogue whilst being mostly very faithful, others will defend it saying it wasn't as bad as the original Z dub when being better than that should be a baseline, not a 2017 dub's ambition.