Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
Piramid wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 12:22 am
The problem with this is that Frieza couldn't have stopped and exploded the Kamehameha that Goku launched at him with the Kaio-ken x20.
Goku himself says it: if Frieza was really using only 50% of his power, there was nothing he could do, not even with the Kaio-ken x20.
Not necessarily. Vegeta lived through a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha in the previous arc, so there's already a precedent of the Kaioken failing to put down an opponent even when the user has a big power advantage. Makes sense that forcibly raising battle power with a technique that destroys your body isn't as effective as you'd think.
DanielSSJ wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 1:35 am
Not necessarily. Vegeta lived through a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha in the previous arc, so there's already a precedent of the Kaioken failing to put down an opponent even when the user has a big power advantage. Makes sense that forcibly raising battle power with a technique that destroys your body isn't as effective as you'd think.
You might be right. Additionally, it’s possible that Frieza used more than 50% of his power for a moment. Let’s remember that later, when he uses 70%, he does it instantly.
Anyway, I wonder if Goku’s Kamehameha with the Kaio-ken x20 increased his power further (as in the case of the 924 against Raditz) or if it didn’t increase any more.
Piramid wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 12:22 am
The problem with this is that Frieza couldn't have stopped and exploded the Kamehameha that Goku launched at him with the Kaio-ken x20.
Goku himself says it: if Frieza was really using only 50% of his power, there was nothing he could do, not even with the Kaio-ken x20.
Why not? Freeza can modify his power.
If all Freeza needed was 50% and that's was his level throughout the fight, why was he surprised and hurt by the Kamehameha? He wonders where Goku got that power, which means he wasn't expecting it. Therefore the 50% he estimated, wasn't enough.
Spoiler:
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Freeza: “Th-that was dangerous…Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now…IT HURT!”
What would be the point of Goku breaking his body with the Kaioken x20, if he knew it would only match Freeza's power? It only makes senses that it surpasses it to be a worthwhile shot, hoping Freeza's exaggerating. That's what he declares, if Freeza's bluffing, there's a chance.
LightBing wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 5:26 am
Why not? Freeza can modify his power.
If all Freeza needed was 50% and that's was his level throughout the fight, why was he surprised and hurt by the Kamehameha? He wonders where Goku got that power, which means he wasn't expecting it. Therefore the 50% he estimated, wasn't enough.
Spoiler:
Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P4.4, P6.2-3
Context: still following the Kaio-Ken x20 Kamehameha
Freeza: “Th-that was dangerous…Wh-why did he have such stupendous power?...Damn Saiyan! That hurt just now…IT HURT!”
What would be the point of Goku breaking his body with the Kaioken x20, if he knew it would only match Freeza's power? It only makes senses that it surpasses it to be a worthwhile shot, hoping Freeza's exaggerating. That's what he declares, if Freeza's bluffing, there's a chance.
I think I understand what you mean.
When Goku uses the Kaio-ken x20, he already knows what Frieza's power is at 50%, so he knows that with the Kaio-ken x20 he would be stronger than Frieza at that moment, and he hopes and wishes that it was not just his 50%, but all of his power. This would mean that Goku with the Kaio-ken x20 would be stronger than Frieza at 50%, and that Frieza managed to counter the Kamehameha either with another more powerful attack or by increasing his power beyond 50%.
Yes, definitely seen that way Goku KKx20 > Frieza 50%
Piramid wrote: Tue Aug 06, 2024 2:43 am
You might be right. Additionally, it’s possible that Frieza used more than 50% of his power for a moment. Let’s remember that later, when he uses 70%, he does it instantly.
Anyway, I wonder if Goku’s Kamehameha with the Kaio-ken x20 increased his power further (as in the case of the 924 against Raditz) or if it didn’t increase any more.
I've been thinking a lot about ki and battle powers lately, particularly about what exactly the difference is between the way the Earthlings use ki versus the alien characters in the Saiyan and Freeza arcs, and based on the conclusions I came up with, I'd say that no, the Kamehameha wasn't a big jump up in power from the base Kaioken x20.
People are just reading too much into things. The original guidebook statement that Super Saiyan increases your power 50 times is just some simple math working off the various statements about relative strength made during the Freeza battle - Goku, using a twentyfold Kaioken, is able to fight relatively evenly with Freeza when the latter is at 50% of his strength, while Super Saiyan Goku is considerably stronger than Freeza at 100% strength. So Super Saiyan Goku has to be more than twice as strong as Twentyfold Kaioken Goku, and they landed on "it increases your strength 50 times" because that was a nice round number and it had to be more than 40.
Toriyama was presumably just looking at the formula itself when he made his comment, not remembering the battle very well, since it doesn't make much sense otherwise. It wasn't a 50-fold change "from what it was up to that point", it wasn't even a 10-fold, it was a 2.5-fold change. The man was just going off his memory here and looked at a number that seemed awfully high, he wasn't remembering that he had already had Goku fight at 20 times his natural power at that point, something that was nowhere near close to being enough.
This is why taking Dragonball's battle powers overly seriously and treating them as mathematical equations is so silly.
Satan wrote:Lortedrøm! Bøh slog min datter ihjel! Hvad bilder du dig ind, Bøh?! Nu kommer Super-Satan og rydder op!
I don't see what's wrong with Toriyama think it was a 10 fold change in his mind. Toriyama didn't draw the manga with a power level list. 10x Goku might have been enough in his mind even though Goku previously used kaiokenx20 as all he was thinking was what if 10 Gokus fought Frieza.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 2:09 am
I don't see what's wrong with Toriyama think it was a 10 fold change in his mind. Toriyama didn't draw the manga with a power level list. 10x Goku might have been enough in his mind even though Goku previously used kaiokenx20 as all he was thinking was what if 10 Gokus fought Frieza.
Toriyama wrote these things:
Oozaru = 10x increase
Kaioken = 20x increase
Super Saiyan > Kaioken 20x > Oozaru
So Super Saiyan can't be less than Kaioken 20x, otherwise there is no point in using Super Saiyan but Kaioken instead.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Wed Aug 07, 2024 2:09 am
I don't see what's wrong with Toriyama think it was a 10 fold change in his mind. Toriyama didn't draw the manga with a power level list. 10x Goku might have been enough in his mind even though Goku previously used kaiokenx20 as all he was thinking was what if 10 Gokus fought Frieza.
Toriyama wrote these things:
Oozaru = 10x increase
Kaioken = 20x increase
Super Saiyan > Kaioken 20x > Oozaru
So Super Saiyan can't be less than Kaioken 20x, otherwise there is no point in using Super Saiyan but Kaioken instead.
Did Toriyama write the Super Saiyan scene with numbers and power levels in his head or did he write it like
Goku had been fighting Frieza with the strenght of 1 Goku.
SS is like 10 Goku's fighting together.
Not a strict 10x Goku's power level but it felt to him like Goku had the strenght of 10 Gokus.
I decided on the design for the Super Saiyan for, to be honest… a simple reason that will leave you saying “What?”. I always have only a single person, Assistant-kun3, helping me with my work. That Assistant-kun’s time was always taken up doing the black fill4 of Goku’s hair, so the biggest reason was in order to save time. Because when he became a Super Saiyan, we wouldn’t have to do the black fill. It also had the effect of making it easy to tell from his appearance that Goku had gotten stronger, so it killed two birds with one stone. Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.
That’s the full response from Toriyama. He is talking about how he designed Goku in SSJ, so it’s logical that when he says he designed it with the idea that his power would be a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point, he was referring to Goku's power at the time the manga was being published while he was designing the transformation. Now, we don't know how far in advance he designed the transformation, but this reaffirms my belief that Toriyama was indeed making a comparison between one state of Goku and another and was not expressing any explicit multiplier for the transformation.
The 10-fold change he’s describing is related to how the power increase felt to him while designing the Super Saiyan transformation, yes. However, the interpretation that he was making a direct comparison between Goku's two specific and arbitrary levels doesn't align neither with the context of his statement nor with the power levels of Freeza’s fight.
It’s as Adamant said here: “The man was just going off his memory here and looked at a number that seemed awfully high, he wasn't remembering that he had already had Goku fight at 20 times his natural power at that point, something that was nowhere near close to being enough”.
Maybe, we don’t know. It’s possible that he designed the transformation even before Goku started fighting against Freeza (maybe even much earlier) and that his initial idea was for Goku to use the KKx10 at some point in the fight but not be able to fully master it. Maybe he intended to match the KKx10 and SSJ in terms of power but not in terms of effectiveness. Let’s remember that Toriyama used to draw a chapter per week and improvised continuously.
The idea that Toriyama wasn’t able to imagine a transformation that grants a power increase of more than x10, and that’s why he made the SSJ with only a x10 multiplier in mind, doesn’t convince me, especially since he worked with a x20 multiplier without any problems. This explanation is inferred from his words, but it’s really a very loose interpretation of them.
None is suggesting that Toriyama's can’t imagine larger multipliers than 10 though. It's only that Toriyama probably didn’t have these specific power levels in mind when making his comment. Super Saiyan debuted on March 1991. Super Exciting Guide was released on March 2009. 18 years of difference. I really doubt he would remember such a specific detail, specially with his tendency of forgetting stuff about his past works.
I get the feeling that he does remember all those things he mentions. These are details he provides without being specifically asked about them. He remembers that he conceived it thinking of a x10 change, he remembers that the x50 seemed exaggerated to him, and he remembers that the purpose was to speed up the process by not having his assistant ink the hair...
In the interviews where he didn't remember something he was asked about, he never had a problem admitting it.
He never says that he felt more comfortable designing it with a lower multiplier in mind. What he does explicitly say is that it was a x10 change compared to what it had been up until that point.
The key is understanding what "what it was up to that poin" means.
He remembered what he considered relevant for the discussion, but not the entire picture of what led to 50-fold boost, since he doesn’t mention Kaio-Ken x20 or how it wasn’t enough to surpass Freeza. “What it was up to that point” is a direct reference to the first part of his comment, that he thought up a 10-fold change instead of the awfully high 50.
By the way, I’m not suggesting he felt more comfortable with a 10-fold change, so I don’t understand why you are making that assumption.
Do you guys think his son ever asked him this questions before? shit, not just his son but his son's friends or classmates? I'd sure ask my mate's father what he meant by this or that.
Could one hope for one day to hear his son's take about all of these matters we've been discussing for 20 years?
I don't get all the interpretation, how more direct must one be?
He pulls the x50, says it's exaggerated. The timeline therefore is set, "up until that point" is x20 Kaioken because that was the know multiplier before SSJ.
The tenfold is also logically to reach x30 because at the time, Goku's power variation were in x10 multipliers: Base to x10 Kaioken to x20 Kaioken.
Even if Toriyama didn't remember the exact multiplier(which I doubt), he remembers the logic of his narrative. Therefore the "tenfold"; isn't a hidden formula or some idiotic statement. It's simple and direct logic, aka Toriyama modus operantis.
Power comparisons were always in Toriyama's mind "while drawing" because this aspect is essential to the story he told.
Plus he always consistent and formulaic in his logic. Refer to the various "less than half power statements", found regularly in the manga through the years.
Ps: The fact the same guide where this interview came out, still published the x50 multipliers. Says how all these numbers are nothing more than interpretations and how little they care to correct it, even when the creator offers clarification.
LightBing wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2024 1:14 pm
He pulls the x50, says it's exaggerated. The timeline therefore is set, "up until that point" is x20 Kaioken because that was the know multiplier before SSJ.
The tenfold is also logically to reach x30 because at the time, Goku's power variation were in x10 multipliers: Base to x10 Kaioken to x20 Kaioken.
If that was what he intended he would simply say that it was a 30-fold change from it was up from that point.
miguelnuva1 wrote: Sun Aug 11, 2024 9:30 pm
Does Toriyama perhaps think 50x the Kkx20 was too large and he imagined 10x stronger than the Kkx20.
I could see Toriyama mixing up what he thought was being multiplied when he was writing the stroy?
That would be something even incredibly larger than a 50-fold change.
I must say I’m not getting why people suggest Toriyama is factoring Kaio-Ken in that comment. He straight up misremembered how he made Freeza stronger than Goku by a lot more than 10 times.
