The REAL reason people dont forgive GT for "Plot Holes" when they do for OG and Z

[tonysoprano300]

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

For the record, Vegeta was like this at the beginning of Super too.





But then he realizes that there is a whole new level of power with which he can become more powerful, and a Saiyan remains a Saiyan, so of course he is going to chase after that new level of power.

As a matter of fact, GT Vegeta still had a rivalry with Goku and challenged him to a fight in the Super 17 arc, saying "today is the day that I defeat you". In the next arc he used a mechanical means to achieve SSJ4 and remain competitive with Goku. So I don't know why people act like GT Vegeta turned into a civilian. He still craved power, he simply did not know how he could close the wide gap with Goku. Besides, GT Goku and Vegeta BARELY interacted at all, considering how Goku was off-world for half of the show and Vegeta got possessed in the meantime.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window.

Why can't these two options coexist? When the Earth is at peace, Gohan dedicates his time fully to his studies. When the Earth is threatened by an alien invader (as in the case of Golden Frieza and Moro), Gohan steps up to help confront the invaders. He's not just going to stand and watch. He's a scholar, not a coward.

And since Gohan is a genius prodigy, he doesn't need training to leave everyone else in the dust, because he has that rage in him that will always allow him to close any gap in power (it was the same thing in Z btw).

I haven’t seen GT in a good minute but my understanding of Vegeta in that series was that he still trains hard but he now he does it push his own limits, to focus on his own growth rather than being driven by his need to compete with Goku. The Super 17 episode your referring to portrayed Goku&Vegeta just having fun, the episode ends with them laughing together like old pals after Goku’s stomach rumbles. So idk how seriously I take it

Whereas in Super, Vegeta’s animosity towards Goku feels like its still there albeit toned down from before. There’s the whole “I will NEVER fuse with Kakarotto!” In the Goku Black arc(Manga) and it took Trunk’s having to tell him about Bulma’s death for him to finally agree to do fusion. There’s even the whole thing about how Goku Blacks face gives Vegeta extra motivation to kill him because he looks like Goku

Then again Toriyama did come out with the Kanzenban ending years later, to retroactively make it so that Vegeta is still focused on beating Goku…even though the entire point of his speech was to spell out that his obsession with Goku was holding him back.

[Skar]

I think it depends on the type of plot hole. No one argues in favor of more plot holes or that they benefit the story. They're something you have to accept in order to keep watching since the author usually can't go back and change them. If it's a minor detail or inconsistency that the author overlooked then most fans probably wouldn't mind. If it's a glaring plot hole that the writer intentionally ignored then chances are they didn't put much effort into the rest of the story.

Some Hollywood sequels are described as "fun if you turn off your brain" because they're entertaining enough maybe for the action scenes or comedy. The story itself is forgettable or average at best and only intended to move from one scene to the next. I don't think any of those are considered "good" movies overall and just good enough if you're bored and have nothing else to watch.

I feel the topic of whether or not plot holes matter would only be necessary for those kinds of sequels because there have obvious examples that you have question if there's anything else that makes them worth watching. You wouldn't really hear this for the sequels that have some attempt to stay consistent with what's been established in that universe. No story is going to be 100% consistent but I think most fans prefer there being some attempt and the author putting in the extra minutes to avoid them if possible vs having plot holes to move the story along because it's easier.

[super michael]

Vegeta acknowledges Goku is number one, so in GT he continues training as he always has but doesn't have his heart set on surpassing Goku. Super regresses Vegeta back to who he was during the Freeza, Android, Cell and Buu sagas, hell they even gave him his full armour without the shoulder pads back. In GT we see a more mature Vegeta who is more domesticated, wears earthly clothes more, drives a car and takes his daughter on shopping trips.

For the record, Vegeta was like this at the beginning of Super too.





But then he realizes that there is a whole new level of power with which he can become more powerful, and a Saiyan remains a Saiyan, so of course he is going to chase after that new level of power.

As a matter of fact, GT Vegeta still had a rivalry with Goku and challenged him to a fight in the Super 17 arc, saying "today is the day that I defeat you". In the next arc he used a mechanical means to achieve SSJ4 and remain competitive with Goku. So I don't know why people act like GT Vegeta turned into a civilian. He still craved power, he simply did not know how he could close the wide gap with Goku. Besides, GT Goku and Vegeta BARELY interacted at all, considering how Goku was off-world for half of the show and Vegeta got possessed in the meantime.

Gohan losing his mystic form sucks, but at the same time Super has been really inconsistent with him and can't make up its mind about whether Gohan wants to dedicate his time fully to his studies or find the right balance between that and staying strong to protect his family. As you mentioned before Super Hero made it look like Gohan was slacking, throwing his request for Piccolo to continue training him out the window.

Why can't these two options coexist? When the Earth is at peace, Gohan dedicates his time fully to his studies. When the Earth is threatened by an alien invader (as in the case of Golden Frieza and Moro), Gohan steps up to help confront the invaders. He's not just going to stand and watch. He's a scholar, not a coward.

And since Gohan is a genius prodigy, he doesn't need training to leave everyone else in the dust, because he has that rage in him that will always allow him to close any gap in power (it was the same thing in Z btw).

I want to add this about the Shadow Dragon episode, Bulma thought that maybe Bebi Vegeta body wasn't strong enough to transform into SSJ4 or maybe Bebi cells interfered. Then later Bulma states that Vegeta has been training really hard, so there is no reason why Vegeta can't gain SSJ4.
The important part is Vegeta was training in GT, he never stopped training at all.

[ABED]

Plotholes only matter to people who desperately want to be seen as "intellectual", but are not actually engaging with the media they're consuming. Most writers are willing to make concessions to things like "logic" for the sake of drama and entertainment.

Seriously the 2010s were the worst time to talk about movies with people and a big indicator that someone doesn't know what they're talking about is if they're sole criticism of a film is that it has plot holes.

If you really want to, you can absolutely dissect any type of show in this matter. But the reality is, "plotholes" that are bad enough that they take you out of enjoying media are symptomatic of a larger issue with a narrative structure. But people are willing to forgive them if the overall narrative is compelling.

This hits the nail squarely on the head.

[super michael]

Goten and Trunks not being able to beat a snake as easily as Kid Goku and Kid Gohan beat dinosaur, bears and other animal is a plothole. I know they did it to make the fight entertaining, if Goten and Trunks beat the snake 1 shot, then there is no fun. However they could have made it a modified animal or space animal instead. It could have been a cyborg or androild animal, any would have been better.
Goten was even going to use a Kamehameha against a snake.

Goten and Trunks got battle damage from being in Monster Island for 48 minutes, how can they get battle damage from weak humans and their weak weapons.

The characters needs to be written good, from the beginning until the 28th Martial Art Tournament the characters has natural growth and maturity. DBS strips many characters of their growth, they don't seem the same characters like in Toriyama manga.
If a fighter wants to fight and train, they should be allowed to do so.



Another plothole is that Goten and Trunks has no problem sensing fights going on in the Boo Saga, yet in RoF movie, DBS Broly movie and Moro Chapter they can't sense any fight going on. They have high power level, yet they are not detected.

[WittyUsername]

Goten and Trunks not being able to beat a snake as easily as Kid Goku and Kid Gohan beat dinosaur, bears and other animal is a plothole. I know they did it to make the fight entertaining, if Goten and Trunks beat the snake 1 shot, then there is no fun. However they could have made it a modified animal or space animal instead. It could have been a cyborg or androild animal, any would have been better.
Goten was even going to use a Kamehameha against a snake.

Goten and Trunks got battle damage from being in Monster Island for 48 minutes, how can they get battle damage from weak humans and their weak weapons.

The characters needs to be written good, from the beginning until the 28th Martial Art Tournament the characters has natural growth and maturity. DBS strips many characters of their growth, they don't seem the same characters like in Toriyama manga.
If a fighter wants to fight and train, they should be allowed to do so.



Another plothole is that Goten and Trunks has no problem sensing fights going on in the Boo Saga, yet in RoF movie, DBS Broly movie and Moro Chapter they can't sense any fight going on. They have high power level, yet they are not detected.

If there’s one thing DBS isn’t concerned about, it’s power-scaling. Making the fights entertaining takes priority over making sure the character’s stats are inline with where fans think they should be.

As for Goten and Trunks not being involved in Broly or Moro, in fairness, their inclusion in the Resurrection saga was a Toei addition, and a rather pointless one at that, just like the tacked on inclusion of Ginyu.

[tonysoprano300]

Goten and Trunks not being able to beat a snake as easily as Kid Goku and Kid Gohan beat dinosaur, bears and other animal is a plothole. I know they did it to make the fight entertaining, if Goten and Trunks beat the snake 1 shot, then there is no fun. However they could have made it a modified animal or space animal instead. It could have been a cyborg or androild animal, any would have been better.
Goten was even going to use a Kamehameha against a snake.

Goten and Trunks got battle damage from being in Monster Island for 48 minutes, how can they get battle damage from weak humans and their weak weapons.

The characters needs to be written good, from the beginning until the 28th Martial Art Tournament the characters has natural growth and maturity. DBS strips many characters of their growth, they don't seem the same characters like in Toriyama manga.
If a fighter wants to fight and train, they should be allowed to do so.



Another plothole is that Goten and Trunks has no problem sensing fights going on in the Boo Saga, yet in RoF movie, DBS Broly movie and Moro Chapter they can't sense any fight going on. They have high power level, yet they are not detected.

If there’s one thing DBS isn’t concerned about, it’s power-scaling. Making the fights entertaining takes priority over making sure the character’s stats are inline with where fans think they should be.

As for Goten and Trunks not being involved in Broly or Moro, in fairness, their inclusion in the Resurrection saga was a Toei addition, and a rather pointless one at that, just like the tacked on inclusion of Ginyu.

Probably a symptom of a bloated cast, and Gotens original purpose within the story probably got scrapped when Goku became MC again. So now he just hovers in the background

[super michael]

Goten and Trunks not being able to beat a snake as easily as Kid Goku and Kid Gohan beat dinosaur, bears and other animal is a plothole. I know they did it to make the fight entertaining, if Goten and Trunks beat the snake 1 shot, then there is no fun. However they could have made it a modified animal or space animal instead. It could have been a cyborg or androild animal, any would have been better.
Goten was even going to use a Kamehameha against a snake.

Goten and Trunks got battle damage from being in Monster Island for 48 minutes, how can they get battle damage from weak humans and their weak weapons.

The characters needs to be written good, from the beginning until the 28th Martial Art Tournament the characters has natural growth and maturity. DBS strips many characters of their growth, they don't seem the same characters like in Toriyama manga.
If a fighter wants to fight and train, they should be allowed to do so.



Another plothole is that Goten and Trunks has no problem sensing fights going on in the Boo Saga, yet in RoF movie, DBS Broly movie and Moro Chapter they can't sense any fight going on. They have high power level, yet they are not detected.

If there’s one thing DBS isn’t concerned about, it’s power-scaling. Making the fights entertaining takes priority over making sure the character’s stats are inline with where fans think they should be.

As for Goten and Trunks not being involved in Broly or Moro, in fairness, their inclusion in the Resurrection saga was a Toei addition, and a rather pointless one at that, just like the tacked on inclusion of Ginyu.

Probably a symptom of a bloated cast, and Gotens original purpose within the story probably got scrapped when Goku became MC again. So now he just hovers in the background

Other anime has more character like My Hero Academia, yet there is no trouble having those characters fight. The same applies to Black Clover.

As for powerscale, they make Goten and Trunks look weaker than Kid Goku and Kid Gohan by their feats. They don't look all that powerful by struggling against a snake. Had their opponent being something more incredible, then there would be no powerscale issue.

It was good in RoF Anime that Goten and Trunks sensed Freeza, but it didn't make sense how their fusion got undone so quickily. In the Boo Saga Gotenks could travel the earth multiple time and even take a nap with time to spare. I highly doubt they did that in RoF Anime.

[JulieYBM]

A big reason why future stories and writers shouldn't be limited by trying to mimick Toriyama is that Toriyama didn't want to try to improve and diversify the types of character arcs he writes. Goten going to the wayside is a big part of this, which makes him creatively ripe to develop as a character.

[WittyUsername]

Give Goten an existential crisis by establishing that he’s a clone of Goku that Bulma created. They already established that Goku and Chi-Chi never kissed, so they might as well reveal that the two have never had sex either, and that Gohan was born from a wish with the Dragon Balls.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Give Goten an existential crisis by establishing that he’s a clone of Goku that Bulma created. They already established that Goku and Chi-Chi never kissed, so they might as well reveal that the two have never had sex either, and that Gohan was born from a wish with the Dragon Balls.

I dont know if you are kidding or not but this could be a legit twist. Too bad Toriyama never did it because now no one will.

[Dbzfan94]

I don’t find GT boring at all. But that’s just me.

And to be honest, Cure Dragon, you always say “this is the last thread I’m making for a while” and then you turn around and make another thread. Non-thread worthy discussions is a thing for a reason.

[Skar]

Other anime has more character like My Hero Academia, yet there is no trouble having those characters fight. The same applies to Black Clover.

I think almost every shonen I've seen used the supporting cast better than DB. I don't think it's an issue since it comes down to the power system or whatever it's called for that specific series. Powerups are usually more conservative and more variety in abilities in other shonen so the supporting cast could have a unique ability that helps the main character. In DB, it's mostly just getting stronger so only the few strongest could do anything against the main villain and side characters get to fight some henchmen if there are any.

I think it's unlikely any future writer would care to change that since the gap gets wider each arc. Everyone in GT was basically retired aside from Goku and Vegeta. The returning characters in Super that had a major powerup in a short time to catch up to Goku and Vegeta were mostly for fan service. I still think most of them are going to retire again by EoZ though.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I don’t find GT boring at all. But that’s just me.

And to be honest, Cure Dragon, you always say “this is the last thread I’m making for a while” and then you turn around and make another thread. Non-thread worthy discussions is a thing for a reason.

This is because a big song and dance was made that "People werent posting because they feel intimidated by the constant threads". Well, I stopped and almost no discussion, very few if anyone posting. None of the people that said "Boy I wish there werent so many threads!" actually came back. I made this thread and as it turned out, a lot of people came out to post in it, More than the usual Four that usually populate the threads. Heck I did this so we could finally get another discussion that isnt "Are people who shit on GT unfair to it?" on the other threads.

I do get in hindsight shitting on GT is a VERY popular topic. That could be a reason why so many posted in it.

[Majin Buu]

This is because a big song and dance was made that "People werent posting because they feel intimidated by the constant threads". Well, I stopped and almost no discussion, very few if anyone posting.

You say that as if it's specifically your responsibility to make discussions happen for some reason. Who made you the "Gotta make sure there's discussions going on" guy?

Sometimes things are just slow here.

[MasenkoHA]

This is because a big song and dance was made that "People werent posting because they feel intimidated by the constant threads". Well, I stopped and almost no discussion, very few if anyone posting.

You say that as if it's specifically your responsibility to make discussions happen for some reason. Who made you the "Gotta make sure there's discussions going on" guy?

Sometimes things are just slow here.

Traffic will most likely pick up when Daima comes out anyways

[Cure Dragon 255]

This is because a big song and dance was made that "People werent posting because they feel intimidated by the constant threads". Well, I stopped and almost no discussion, very few if anyone posting.

You say that as if it's specifically your responsibility to make discussions happen for some reason. Who made you the "Gotta make sure there's discussions going on" guy?

Sometimes things are just slow here.

When they made me the "You are killing discussion, your threads REALLY make other people stop posting!" guy.