Unpopular DB opinions

[Cure Dragon 255]

No worries. It's definitely never made clear how they feel ultimately about their original decision, so we're just left to interpret how they might. It's possible

its intentional.

Akira Toriyama writing style is like the bible. he brilliantly writes stories, that stick to the important stuff and doesnt go on ridiculous flashbacks or information the we dont actually need like they do on many other anime with the flashbacks on every side character that no one knew existed few episodes ago and nobody even remember they exist after their appearance.

they dont need to tell us everything, because Toriyama, wrote it in a way that we know the characters and we instinctively know what they would do and why they do it.
and you dont even have to be some hardcore fan. you just need to follow the story.


every time you see a flashback or some information about a side characters that doesnt matter, or maybe some deep explanation on something ithat wont affect the story in any way, that is bad writing.


*never ask for explicit information. its terrible writing. a writer need to convey information to the reader without blatantly tell everything, and Toriyama did it with all of his works.

right now I'm finishing My Hero Academia, and its hell to watch. i keep on skipping all the useless information. thats bad writing.

I just LOVE how "I would like a bit more consistency in themes and writing, and fix some of the more nagging plot holes" is "Calling for Toriyama's manga to turn into overexplained, shitty dreck filled with shitty flashbacks"

[tonysoprano300]

Sorry I'm referring to the Island 9 miles from south City, I just mean that them feeling vindictated by their decision to stand pat at the beginning would feel a little messed up given that there were casualities as a result. In the text itself, its never explicity made clear that they feel that way so its not neccessarily a criticism on my end but if that reading of he story is accurate then yea it makes them just a tad unlikeable for me.

No worries. It's definitely never made clear how they feel ultimately about their original decision, so we're just left to interpret how they might. It's possible Goku's decision to stay dead was an attempt at this, but if so it's not made as clear as it should be. My own interpretation (in hindsight, after the Boo arc has played out) is that Goku is ultimately using that all as an excuse to seek new challenges in the afterlife since Gohan's now retiring, Vegeta couldn't keep up, and Chichi was going to make him get a job; but that's not made as clear as it should be either.

That's both the joy and the frustration with these last two arcs, which are both Dragon Ball's longest, and also the one's that probably had Toriyama at his most exhausted and burnt out. His flippant writing style means he's probably not planning too far ahead or looking too far back when building twists, climaxes, and resolutions, resulting in a lot of the small hiccups we've talked about. The weekly publishing schedule means he probably wouldn't have had very much time to do so. His exhaustion means he probably wouldn't have had much energy to do so. As a result, the story and characters are a lot more open to interpretation than is perhaps preferable. Or, as you've said, inconsistent and incoherent.

Really, Toriyama probably should have taken a hiatus after the Namek arc to both rest and plan. But the series also peaked in popularity with Namek, so it's difficult to imagine that actually happening. And, well, it didn't, and this is what we're left with. Despite the many flaws with these two arcs, despite the inconsistencies and incoherence that do exist, I'm amazed at how much consistency and coherency there still is. A better (read: more attentive and well-rested) writer would have done a better job, but it's genuinely impressive just how well Toriyama did stick the landing on these very long stories while burnt out and planning very little. They've both got issues, possibly more than any prior arcs, but they almost don't even matter. Almost.

Oh I definitely get it, as someone who writes and spends a lot of time learning about the writing process I understand how stressful it can be(even on the commercial side of things). Despite all my criticism, DB is still one of the only cartoons i can go back to a an adult and pick up right where I left off. My fascination with the original comic is just as strong now as when I was a kid, and there is something to be said about how Toriyama managed to accomplish this, it just feels timeless and its undoubtedly praise worthy.

So, I do agree that this would have been really interesting. At the same time though, I don't think it's necessary for the kind of story being told. To be clear this isn't me giving Toriyama a pass because I like the end result, or holding DB to different storytelling rules or anything. I'm just trying to have realistic expectations. Toriyama was a gag artist by trade, and he happened to also have a knack for great action as well. As a result, he told a comedic martial arts story about strength cultivation and battling evil in a tournament-coded universe. That's the sort of story he aimed to tell, and that's the sort of story we ought to be evaluating.

He's not great at romance, and he's not great at extremely heady or philosophical stuff. There are elements of these throughout the story; the light bit of romance present in the Pilaf arc helps the story out, as well as the gags. The light bit of moral quandaries he dabbles in helps color Goku in a way I find pretty interesting. Your point about Kuririn is great, and God's hesitance to fuse with Piccolo just to kill the twins pairs well with it. But these are largely outside of his wheelhouse, absent from his primary toolbox of tricks, and so I don't expect a great deal of these even on his best days. And the Cell arc was far from the best of days for him. There are some time travel tropes he leaned into (namely the butterfly effect, I'd argue), but I see the time travel stuff ultimately as window dressing for the basically-tournament matches these characters are practically destined to live through.

And I don't say this out of a disdain for heady stuff. I have an MA in Philosophy, and some of my favorite manga outside of DB are Monster, Berserk, and Vinland Saga, all of which deal with hefty philosophical questions and ethical quandaries as one of the main features of their stories. Dragon Ball is simply not that kind of thing, and it doesn't need that sort of thing to feature good storytelling. So, in the moments where the storytelling warrants criticism, I don't think the absence of deep philosophical dilemmas is what warrants that criticism.

But, again, I do agree that it would have been really cool and would have elevated the work. I just don't think Toriyama would have been the kind of writer to pull that off, even at his sharpest.

For sure, its not necessarily a criticism on my end. Different works have different priorities and I get that, I don't walk into a DB movie expecting The Godfather. I think my general point was to emphasize that stories tend to work better when the problems that the characters face are used in such a way that advance the narrative as a whole and facilitate meaningful drama. The reason I brought up the Majin Buu example is to showcase how Toriyama can do this exceptionally well, he expertly balances the lightheartedness of DB with the drama that arises naturally from the stakes of the situation. The characters are told about Babidi and they all agree that they should probably do something to prevent him from waking up Buu but the way they carry themselves and how they go about everything feels like a game, it feels very relaxed. The supreme Kai is the most serious and intentional character there but he contrasts so wildly with the cast that he almost seems out of place entirely, and thats awesome. When they ultimately fail, its due to organic narrative threads that toriyama planted from the onset Gokus return to Earth and as a result Vegetas betrayal feels like something that was brewing under the surface only to be brought out at the most inopportune moment. Everything feels organic, the narrative pivots unexpectedly but the groundwork was laid in such a way that you never question it. The story presents a problem, and the characters try to solve but their personal dynamics play out in such that ultimately prevents them from doing so.

I feel like if it was done in the vein of The Cell arc, it would be Supreme Kai telling the cast about Majin Buu only for them be like "We wanna fight the strong guy, so we dont care", which to me is just not as interesting or meaningful

I am. Super Saiyan 3 no doubt wasn't conceptualized at that point. With regards to integrating it into the story and having its existence color Goku's actions during the Majin Vegeta section, bad strategy is definitely one way to read it.

For me, it's effectively another "Goku gambling for a good fight" moment. This read is available because he's clearly looking forward to fighting Vegeta, and is also enjoying himself during the fight. This in turn makes it come across like the afterlife wasn't as exciting over the past seven years as he was hoping it would be, and a close fight against a Super Saiyan 2 is the closest he's going to be able to get to stretching his legs, so to speak; using Super Saiyan 3 to end it right there wouldn't serve that end. Then we finally do see him (a man who can teleport) use Super Saiyan 3 against Boo while stalling so Trunks can fly to Capsule Corp to get the Dragon Radar. It's hard for me to not see Goku wanting to stretch his legs as a Super Saiyan 3 here.

Goku being culpable in this way for Boo's revival is important because it then makes his being one of the ones to actually finish Boo off in the end make more narrative sense. Gohan, Goten, and Trunks didn't let him out, Goku and Vegeta did; so when it comes down to those two having to clean up the mess they caused, I really enjoy it.

Of course, none of this is spelled out really. I don't know if any of this was Toriyama's intention, and if it was he certainly didn't do much work to render it clear. It's one of those things where, because of Toriyama's carelessness, his exhaustion, and the sheer length of these arcs, there are hiccups and cracks everywhere, and a lot more stuff is open to audience interpretation than is preferable. That said, I do think this is one of the available interpretations of his actions throughout the arc; it forms a general throughline, and lines up with Goku's general trajectory of getting increasingly reckless in his gambling as he gets stronger.

The reason I call it bad strategy is because I'm going by the reasoning Goku gave, which is that he didn't use SSJ3 because he didn't know if he would end up needing it later...which makes no sense. Majin Buu is on the verge of his awakening, what possible future situation would be more desperate than this? I guess you could read it so that Goku isn't being 100% truthful, the reason I struggle to make that work is because Vegeta felt it necessary to murder innocent people at the world martial arts tournament in order to force Goku to fight him and Goku is enraged by that. When the fight starts Goku powers up to SSJ2 right away because he intends to finish things quickly, and he stops the fight at various points to try and get Vegeta to see reason., so i feel its somewhat warranted to take Goku at his word.

And by that same token, if he is naive to not use SSJ3 against Vegeta then hes probably silly enough to forget that he can just teleport trunks to get the Dragon Radar.

True, Piccolo has largely abided by the tournament rules, and the fact that he even entered it in the first place is interesting. I would say that sealing God away and eating him is perhaps a bit outside of the rulebook, though. And beyond that, Goku's still clearly interested in the integrity of the match after Piccolo blows up the whole island, else he wouldn't be caring about the ten count, or his ringing Piccolo out at the end.

I also think Kame Sennin's comment does some important legwork here: "Hehe...Goku never was one to think much about the global situation. The only thing that really gets him excited...is fighting an opponent worthy of him...". In the next chapter, God says that if they don't defeat Piccolo now they'll regret it later, to which Goku replies: "I'll regret it more if I give up now." Tenshinhan adds: "Please let Goku do this his way. The world he's defending is one he's already saved once. Surely he's earned the right...". This is echoed by Kuririn in the Saiyan arc when he says: "You saved the Earth...I guess you've got the right...to have it your way...".

The fact that Piccolo is playing by the rules at all doesn't count for nothing, but I struggle to truly decouple this moment from the rest of Goku's trajectory in the following arcs. And, unlike my reading of the Boo arc case, I think it's difficult to not read this as Toriyama intentionally depicting Goku as taking a selfish risk.

I dont disagree, I think the only difference is that I tend to be able to fit this within Gokus preexisting ethics prior to that point. It certainly is reckless but viewing from the lens of Goku, I can identify what he was probably thinking in those moments. For me, the Vegeta thing doesn't have any ethical foundation on Gokus part, maybe thats why he admits that its wrong where as he feels validated with his decision against Piccolo. I'm probably reading way too much into this but whatever lol. I think your reading of Toriyamas intent for scene is correct, imo hes not even being subtle about how he wants us to perceive Goku here given the comments from Muten Roshi. Diegetically, I find it difficult to even understand why Roshi would ever be in a position to say such a thing given that Goku has been a pure hearted kid who just saved the world from Piccolo, who defeated the Red Ribbon Army and who took down Tao. In the very first arc, it was revealed that Goku was the only one pure enough to ride Kinotun and it was everyone who were selfish or impure. Goku making this decision should be just as much a shock to him as it is to everyone else.

[Zephyr]

words

Re: Boo arc
I agree, Vegeta turning against them to expedite their fight at a moment which would hasten the full restoration of Boo's power was the moment to pull out all the stops. There's a ton of merit to the "bad strategy" read, as I don't think Toriyama intended Goku to be lying to Vegeta about his reason for holding back. But as I think through trying to make all of the beats and bits of dialogue fit together, I'm left reading between the lines.

You say that the things that precede and instigate their fight make it hard for you to read Goku as lying, but those make it easier for me to read it that way. Like you said, Vegeta just killed a bunch of innocent people which made Goku angry. So there's righteous indignation on top of practical necessity for Goku to use his full strength here. Everything's aligned for Goku to use his full strength and end things quickly.

Well, except for one thing: where's the fun? A panel that always sticks out to me when I go back through this section is this one:


That's the face of a man who is looking forward to this. "This" being a fight against someone stronger than Gohan was against Cell. Which, to me, comes across as "there was nobody on this level in the afterlife", else, why have that sort of expression? Goku doesn't merely want to stop Vegeta, he wants to fight him. Using Super Saiyan 3 would only accomplish the former.

Another thing that jumped out at me for the first time while looking things over for this post is his comment to Gohan. He says: "Get angry, Gohan. Remember the time you fought Cell, and bring out all the power you have. You can't lose to anyone that way--anyone!" This comes across to me as him having faith that Gohan will stop Boo's revival, while he and Vegeta have their tournament match.

Finally, there are Vegeta's comments when Boo is actually released: "Not much to speak of, is he? I should have known, Kakarrot, we've gotten too strong...by a huge margin! The Kaioshin is supposed to be invincible--but were you impressed? He was the one who was stunned at our power! So what if he thinks Boo is unbeatable?! What does that mean to us?!" Goku then says "...I dunno...this chi feels kinda abnormal..." Then they go right back to fighting, still no Super Saiyan 3. Then after Boo beats up Dabra, they pause again, and Goku says "...his power increased incredibly...this Boo is no joke...! Vegeta, we can't waste time fighting....we're the ones who let him loose!" Goku later tells Boo that he and Vegeta underestimated him, and never imagined that he could be so powerful.

So, when I put it all together here's what I get. Goku says he's going to end things quickly, at full power. In reality he does not use his full power, knowing that things will not end quickly. Dragging things out allows him to have what is probably the highest level fight he's ever had, and will probably work out fine because Gohan can just get angry and defeat anyone! The thought of Boo frightens Kaioshin, but Goku and co. also amaze him, so Boo's probably not that big of a deal anyway.

About a year later in real time, we get Goku saying he held Super Saiyan 3 back "just in case". To an extent I think this is a fumble on Toriyama's part, because he probably lacked the initiative, time, and/or energy to go back, check that part of the story, and give some serious thought to Goku's thoughts, words, and actions.

On the other hand, now that I've written all of this, I've come to a new conclusion: we can read Goku as having held Super Saiyan 3 back "just in case" in addition to all of these other reasons. He's fine with relying on Gohan again and risking releasing Boo, because he's confident he can put Boo away if needed (and, indeed he says he could have; his decision to have Goten and Trunks try is another can of worms). So, the bigger narrative flub with Goku's reason for not using Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta isn't that it's a lie, it's that it isn't the complete picture. Though, arguably there wasn't time for Goku to explain his entire thought process.

Whatever the case, and whether this all fits as neatly together as I think it does, at the time of Goku and Vegeta's fight, it's difficult to not see deliberate elements of Goku enjoying himself and being a bit arrogant about things.

Minor point, but it's very silly for Goku to not remember that he could teleport Trunks when he teleports himself away on the same page that he tells Trunks to fly there. I don't think Toriyama intended for Goku to use this as a flimsy excuse to fight Boo, especially given that he thinks to himself "I don't really want to do this!" and "I just have to buy time." It makes Goku look very dumb, and I don't think that was Toriyama's intention. I've seen the idea floated that maybe Bulma's parents don't have large enough ki for Goku to detect in order to teleport there, but I don't really buy it.

---

Re: Cell arc
I'm not sure there's anything left for us to really say about the Cell arc. All I can do is reiterate three points:

I think a better way to phrase the Cell arc bit is less "we want to fight the strong guy, we don't care", and more "if we train we can probably beat him". And, as I've tried to demonstrate, that same arrogance is there in the Boo arc case as well (only there it actually blows up in their faces, something I find fitting for the story's final arc).

That Trunks came to warn them about an upcoming fight, rather than imploring them to avert it altogether, is one important contrast with Kaioshin's warning. That the conversation about averting the fight altogether in the Cell arc is mined more for gags than drama is another.

And, as said, going and stopping Gero would have possibly been the more reckless move, and that training in preparation to hopefully reach their level was the more safe and pragmatic decision. This is something I didn't realize until we had this conversation, so you have my thanks for that.

---

Re: 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
This is interesting. People really should be a bit more surprised by Goku's selfishness here, especially given the Kinto-Un point. That said, I don't think Roshi's wrong when he describes Goku as not really being concerned with the global situation. He did save the world from the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo, but I think that fact is perhaps a bit more incidental than it's often characterized as.

He only goes to Red Ribbon HQ because there are two Dragon Balls there. He's also excited that he gets to go beat them all up, and says "Let's have some fun!!!!" as he mounts his assault. When he finally reaches the Balls, Black has Goku consider the following: "Why don't you and I gather the Dragon Balls together? And together we will rule the world." Goku says "No way! I'm gonna revive Upa's dad who got killed by one of your guys!" When Black says they can revive Upa's dad, and then join forces to conquer the world without the Balls, Goku replies: "I told you I don't want to!! I don't even want to be friends with bad guys!!" After they fight and Black attempts to retreat, Goku says "Huh?!! Is he runnin' away?! But he's a bad guy....and I don't let bad guys get away!!!"

There are some interesting points here about not being friends with bad guys or letting them get away that contrast with his actions as an adult, but the larger point is that "saving the world" is never among his motives in attacking the Red Ribbon Army. He wants to help his friend (something which does cause Roshi to call him "heroic") and he wants to have fun. When told about world domination, his reply isn't "I can't let you dominate the world!" it's basically "Not for me!"

Goku's primary motive in the Piccolo Daimao arc is revenge, and it would be beyond excessive for me to quote every instance of Goku voicing that throughout the arc. Regarding the global situation, Karin tells Goku that "As matters now stand, the demon king is invincible...and the world will be dragged into the hand of evil as he plans." When Goku is holding the water, Karin tells him "If you train for several years, you may be able to battle Piccolo..." to which Goku replies: "We can't afford to wait years!" So we have one prior instance of Goku being concerned about the fate of the world, which Roshi wasn't there for. Granted, Roshi wasn't with Goku throughout the bulk of either of these arcs, so he's not really speaking from direct experience either way.

Regardless, Goku's primary reasons for saving the world have not been to save the world. Saving the world is a fortunate side effect of his main objectives. This tracks with what Roshi says about him during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. The two main things I see as contrasting with his preexisting ethics are: 1. Him reprimanding God for interfering with the tournament match while he previously thanked Tenshinhan for saving him against Daimao. 2. Him letting Piccolo go (and later guys like Vegeta and Freeza) while he previously said he wouldn't let bad guys like Black go. (To argue back against this point, though, he also says that he beat up everyone in the army except for the ones who ran away; to argue back against that though, you can't catch everyone).

In any case, I don't think these two instances of contrast develop organically, as Goku gets older and stronger and reaches the pinnacle of strength on Earth. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is a sort of transitional stage of it, and I don't think it's for nothing that you see it as more in line with how be thought and acted as a child, while I see it as more in line with how he thought and acted as an adult.

[Koitsukai]

About a year later in real time, we get Goku saying he held Super Saiyan 3 back "just in case". To an extent I think this is a fumble on Toriyama's part, because he probably lacked the initiative, time, and/or energy to go back, check that part of the story, and give some serious thought to Goku's thoughts, words, and actions.

I agree with the entire post but I don't think it's a fumble on Tori's part. The reason why is in your following paragraph, the answers are implicit(and explicit, too) in the work. One just has to pay attention, connect the dots, read the material.

If it were a play, the director/thespian/audience would happily connect the dots and leave the theater satisfied. It allows us to have discussions about the material beyond PAWA REVERUSU or taking it as just plain flashy entertainment (which I understand is why DB is so popular), just like you two have been doing for the last few days, and like we've all been doing for years.

We can debate whether a so-called children's program requires a more spoonfed approach, but the crumbs are there for us to collect, so it seems to be aimed at an audience able to read between the lines. The humor is also for mature audiences, so it makes sense that some things are told in less straight-forward ways.

Maybe Toriyama fumbled when it came to acknowledge who was actually reading this, but the material itself is on point, I think. One might dislike the fact that it invites the reader to fill in the blanks, but one doesn't have to come up with the answers on their own, they are, and have been, right there. Goku enjoys fighting a little too much, and relies too much on his son.
Well, that, or he really was as sloppy as possible, fumbling every step of the way, and things made sense out of pure luck, every single time.

[Zephyr]

I agree with the entire post but I don't think it's a fumble on Tori's part. The reason why is in your following paragraph, the answers are implicit(and explicit, too) in the work. One just has to pay attention, connect the dots, read the material.

If it were a play, the director/thespian/audience would happily connect the dots and leave the theater satisfied. It allows us to have discussions about the material beyond PAWA REVERUSU or taking it as just plain flashy entertainment (which I understand is why DB is so popular), just like you two have been doing for the last few days, and like we've all been doing for years.

We can debate whether a so-called children's program requires a more spoonfed approach, but the crumbs are there for us to collect, so it seems to be aimed at an audience able to read between the lines. The humor is also for mature audiences, so it makes sense that some things are told in less straight-forward ways.

Maybe Toriyama fumbled when it came to acknowledge who was actually reading this, but the material itself is on point, I think. One might dislike the fact that it invites the reader to fill in the blanks, but one doesn't have to come up with the answers on their own, they are, and have been, right there. Goku enjoys fighting a little too much, and relies too much on his son.
Well, that, or he really was as sloppy as possible, fumbling every step of the way, and things made sense out of pure luck, every single time.

Perhaps "fumble" isn't the right word, but I guess having no lip service paid to the other factors involved allows for them to slip under the radar, which in turn invites readings of Goku's actions in the arc as not being cohesive, which can make analysis and discussion taxing.

But you're right, I pointed out that it's not like Goku had the time to explain to Vegeta everything that the reader is able to glean from his words, expressions, and actions surrounding their prior fight. So, it's not an actual mistake in my mind. But at the same time, I can't help but think that a more careful and rested Toriyama might have made it all fit together just a bit better and more clearly.

Also there was a typo in my previous post I only just now noticed:

In any case, I don't think these two instances of contrast develop organically, as Goku gets older and stronger and reaches the pinnacle of strength on Earth.

It should say: "I do think these two instances of contrast develop organically". Goku at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai bridges the gap between the Goku who defeated the Red Ribbon Army and the Goku who fought Vegeta. The change from "I don't let bad guys go" to "I know it's selfish, but please let him go" is to me perhaps the clearest example of Goku having developed as a character (contrary to assertions that he never does). That he isn't necessarily developing into a better person is something I find interesting.

This is what I believe Toriyama was referring to when he mentioned "elements of poison slipping through the cracks". The only thing I really find lacking about it all is, as Tony brought up, how it might affect his ability to ride Kinto-Un. Is this "poison" enough to render him unable to ride it? Would Toriyama have thought of that? We'll never know!

[tonysoprano300]

words

Re: Boo arc
I agree, Vegeta turning against them to expedite their fight at a moment which would hasten the full restoration of Boo's power was the moment to pull out all the stops. There's a ton of merit to the "bad strategy" read, as I don't think Toriyama intended Goku to be lying to Vegeta about his reason for holding back. But as I think through trying to make all of the beats and bits of dialogue fit together, I'm left reading between the lines.

You say that the things that precede and instigate their fight make it hard for you to read Goku as lying, but those make it easier for me to read it that way. Like you said, Vegeta just killed a bunch of innocent people which made Goku angry. So there's righteous indignation on top of practical necessity for Goku to use his full strength here. Everything's aligned for Goku to use his full strength and end things quickly.

Well, except for one thing: where's the fun? A panel that always sticks out to me when I go back through this section is this one:


That's the face of a man who is looking forward to this. "This" being a fight against someone stronger than Gohan was against Cell. Which, to me, comes across as "there was nobody on this level in the afterlife", else, why have that sort of expression? Goku doesn't merely want to stop Vegeta, he wants to fight him. Using Super Saiyan 3 would only accomplish the former.

This might get a little long winded but I promise its going somewhere so just bare with me lol. As far as I understand it, Goku choosing to stay dead was a self imposed limitation. Him being dead or alive wouldn't really affect the ultimate point of his decision, which is that he feels that he attracts bad guys to the Earth and thus he feels everyone would be better off if he wasn't around. If by some miracle he ended up surviving the battle against Cell, he would still have chosen to live on King Kais world because of this belief that he has(DB has shown that Goku can freely travel to the afterlife even when hes alive). That's what I'm led to believe.

I've heard the analysis that Goku got bored before, but Its hard for me to square that with the idea that he could just come back anytime that he wants. There really is nothing stopping him from just telling the Namekian Elders to do it, it would take less than a day probably and Goku knows he can do this. Given that he doesnt do this, its reason to believe that he actually meant what he said at the end of the Cell arc and that he is primarily behaving in an altruistic fashion(Key word is Primarily, I'm sure part of Goku also wanted to meet warriors in the afterlife).

Based on that, I dont see why Goku would intentionally jeopardize the sacrifice that he made at the end of the Cell arc just so he can pursue a fight with a guy who he stopped caring about as a rival since the ending of the freeza arc. If I'm honest, I dont think the Goku and Vegeta's rivalry was as big of a deal as the fandom makes it out to be. It mostly consists of Vegeta seething when Goku demonstrates time and time again that he is just better than Vegeta, the last time Goku even brings it up is against Freeza but after that point he really doesnt show a particularly strong interest in fighting Vegeta again. Its important to remember that Vegeta is the one wants it desperately, and while I dont think Goku would ever say no to a fight, he never really shares that same enthusiasm Vegeta does. At times it comes across as the Don Draper " I dont think about you at all" meme from Mad Men, where Vegeta is just so desperate to prove himself against Goku while Goku is more so focused on just pushing himself to new heights and perfecting his craft.
Even in this very arc, Vegeta is the one thats all like "Grrr, I want to fight you before you leave Kakarotto!" and Goku is all like "Sure man, whatever".

Its also important to note the panel you brought up actually takes place before Goku even knew about Vegeta having SSJ2, at this point Goku thought Vegeta was going to be easy pickings and he powers up to SSJ2 right away because he doesnt wanna waste any time. Not to say your completely wrong or anything, maybe its true that as the fight progressed Goku's battle thirst got the better of him but I read Goku's smirk there as a demonstration of his confidence at the moment. He senses Vegeta's power and realizes he not much to worry about. I guess in a larger sense Id also have to ask how much satisfaction Goku is getting out of fighting someone who he knows he can crush in an instant at any moment that he wants to, the entire allure of fighting a tough opponent is supposed to be in the the fact they can actually provide a meaningful challenge to you. If Goku has to intentionally restrain himself just to make this fight fair then it just seems like he's "sonning" Vegeta in order to not hurt his feelings. Probably not the correct interpretation though, that's just my subjective feeling when I watch this fight with SSJ3 in mind.

I read the loss of Goku's righteous indignation as yet another example of a completely separate issue I've talked about before, which is that Vegeta's crimes are constantly handwaved and people just being really understanding of him but I guess that's a whole separate topic.

Ill just say that I think your interpretation has some validity once the fight actually starts, everything leading up to it suggests that Vegeta is forcing Goku into a battle he doesn't want to be in but maybe once the fight commences Goku's mind gets clouded by his primal saiyan nature? He could also just be a dumbass, you never wanna factor that out lol

Re: Cell arc
I'm not sure there's anything left for us to really say about the Cell arc. All I can do is reiterate three points:

I think a better way to phrase the Cell arc bit is less "we want to fight the strong guy, we don't care", and more "if we train we can probably beat him". And, as I've tried to demonstrate, that same arrogance is there in the Boo arc case as well (only there it actually blows up in their faces, something I find fitting for the story's final arc).

That Trunks came to warn them about an upcoming fight, rather than imploring them to avert it altogether, is one important contrast with Kaioshin's warning. That the conversation about averting the fight altogether in the Cell arc is mined more for gags than drama is another.

And, as said, going and stopping Gero would have possibly been the more reckless move, and that training in preparation to hopefully reach their level was the more safe and pragmatic decision. This is something I didn't realize until we had this conversation, so you have my thanks for that.

To be fair to Goku, he was forced into a fight that he had no intentions of being in. He does share at least some responsibility in the fact that he doesnt use SSJ3 but at the end of the day his actions are much more forgivable because he isnt actively seeking it out and for the most part is trying to avoid it. Vegeta to me takes the lions share of the blame, like 95%. At the end of the day, we dont have the full picture of what Goku was thinking, only certain interpretations based on his actions but nothing really explicit other than the excuses he gives. Whereas with Vegeta, it was 1000% clear he actively doomed the universe, so I never really saw them as equally culpable if that makes sense.

In the Cell arc they were both equally culpable, I think my issue with using the fact that they were going to train as meaningful preparation is that this is Goku, the guy is gonna train regardless of the circumstance he finds himself in. Hell he just came back from Yardrat where he was training hard, in the Buu arc they had 7 years of peace and they still trained extremely hard in those years. Its not necessarily a meaningful action thats specific to the android problem, they didnt really undergo anything special compared to something like Goku desperately seeking out Kaio to prepare for the saiyans. So when I say they didnt do anything meaningful, thats essentially what I mean. In fairness to Vegeta, he at least underwent extreme gravity training.

Re: 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
This is interesting. People really should be a bit more surprised by Goku's selfishness here, especially given the Kinto-Un point. That said, I don't think Roshi's wrong when he describes Goku as not really being concerned with the global situation. He did save the world from the Red Ribbon Army and Piccolo, but I think that fact is perhaps a bit more incidental than it's often characterized as.

He only goes to Red Ribbon HQ because there are two Dragon Balls there. He's also excited that he gets to go beat them all up, and says "Let's have some fun!!!!" as he mounts his assault. When he finally reaches the Balls, Black has Goku consider the following: "Why don't you and I gather the Dragon Balls together? And together we will rule the world." Goku says "No way! I'm gonna revive Upa's dad who got killed by one of your guys!" When Black says they can revive Upa's dad, and then join forces to conquer the world without the Balls, Goku replies: "I told you I don't want to!! I don't even want to be friends with bad guys!!" After they fight and Black attempts to retreat, Goku says "Huh?!! Is he runnin' away?! But he's a bad guy....and I don't let bad guys get away!!!"

There are some interesting points here about not being friends with bad guys or letting them get away that contrast with his actions as an adult, but the larger point is that "saving the world" is never among his motives in attacking the Red Ribbon Army. He wants to help his friend (something which does cause Roshi to call him "heroic") and he wants to have fun. When told about world domination, his reply isn't "I can't let you dominate the world!" it's basically "Not for me!"

Goku's primary motive in the Piccolo Daimao arc is revenge, and it would be beyond excessive for me to quote every instance of Goku voicing that throughout the arc. Regarding the global situation, Karin tells Goku that "As matters now stand, the demon king is invincible...and the world will be dragged into the hand of evil as he plans." When Goku is holding the water, Karin tells him "If you train for several years, you may be able to battle Piccolo..." to which Goku replies: "We can't afford to wait years!" So we have one prior instance of Goku being concerned about the fate of the world, which Roshi wasn't there for. Granted, Roshi wasn't with Goku throughout the bulk of either of these arcs, so he's not really speaking from direct experience either way.

Regardless, Goku's primary reasons for saving the world have not been to save the world. Saving the world is a fortunate side effect of his main objectives. This tracks with what Roshi says about him during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. The two main things I see as contrasting with his preexisting ethics are: 1. Him reprimanding God for interfering with the tournament match while he previously thanked Tenshinhan for saving him against Daimao. 2. Him letting Piccolo go (and later guys like Vegeta and Freeza) while he previously said he wouldn't let bad guys like Black go. (To argue back against this point, though, he also says that he beat up everyone in the army except for the ones who ran away; to argue back against that though, you can't catch everyone).

In any case, I don't think these two instances of contrast develop organically, as Goku gets older and stronger and reaches the pinnacle of strength on Earth. The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai is a sort of transitional stage of it, and I don't think it's for nothing that you see it as more in line with how be thought and acted as a child, while I see it as more in line with how he thought and acted as an adult.

I agree with a lot of your points, specifically your interpretation of Goku's actions prior to the tournament. Goku is not a hero like say Batman is a hero, but Goku does have some sense of moral obligation likely derived from the teachings of Gramps Gohan. If you look at the Red Ribbon Army arc, Goku hunt for the 4 star ball was his primary motive, it was his grandfathers keepsake and the most important reminder of the most influential figure in his life. Yet when he sees Tao kill Bora(Who at this point is a complete stranger to Goku) he immediately drops his extremely personal quest, and vows to avenge Bora without a semblance of hesitation whatsoever. He makes his mission to wish him back to life and while he doesn't actively seek out the RRA per say, he still takes them down because its the right thing in the moment. I think my issue with Roshi's comments is that he makes sound as if just stumbles into saving the world with zero intentionality behind it, he may have more than one motivation but saving others from bad people has always been something he intentionally factored into his actions prior to that point. A fortunate side effect situation would be more in line with the DBS depiction of Goku, who is really just looking for strong guys to fight to a point where he'll sacrifice anything to that end and that saving the universe isnt really that important to him. He just seems morally bankrupt which is not what I feel we were presented for most of the original run.

Him letting Piccolo did have a pragmatic foundation, and I believe it was later mentioned that Goku never believed Piccolo was as bad as he used to be? I can see why he wouldnt kill him and one cold even argue that it was the right call from a process POV

[Majin Buu]

In the Cell arc they were both equally culpable, I think my issue with using the fact that they were going to train as meaningful preparation is that this is Goku, the guy is gonna train regardless of the circumstance he finds himself in.

...So? They're all specifically training for this fight, a fight that Goku actively contributes to. "Him training to fight the Androids doesn't count as preparation because training is something he'd be doing anyway" feels like grasping at straws so you can maintain your claim that they did nothing about the Android threat.

Hell he just came back from Yardrat where he was training hard, in the Buu arc they had 7 years of peace and they still trained extremely hard in those years. Its not necessarily a meaningful action thats specific to the android problem, they didnt really undergo anything special compared to something like Goku desperately seeking out Kaio to prepare for the saiyans. So when I say they didnt do anything meaningful, thats essentially what I mean. In fairness to Vegeta, he at least underwent extreme gravity training.

Your logic is that training to fight the Androids doesn't count as prep because training is something Goku would be doing anyway without a looming threat. By your own logic then, Goku training under Kaio doesn't count as prep for the Saiyan invasion for the same reason.

You say Goku "desperately" sought out Kaio to prepare for the Saiyans and that makes the difference, but he didn't seek out Kaio of his own accord- Kami pulled some strings to let him keep his body as a dead guy then told him to go find Kaio to prepare for the Saiyan invasion. Goku training under Kaio was the result of divine intervention on Kami's part, it wasn't something Goku proactively did on his own like you're implying with your comparison to Vegeta's gravity training.

Without Kami's involvement, Goku (had he survived the Raditz battle) would have likely just done normal training on his own and gotten stronger that way (He wouldn't have Kaioken or the Genki Dama though so he might have been screwed against Vegeta, assuming things played out the same way). And like you said with the Androids- Training is something Goku would likely have been doing anyway even with no Saiyan threat on the horizon. Hell, we know he's been training for the sake of training prior to the Raditz fight as he reveals during that fight that he's been wearing weighted clothing.

[GTx10]

I think Goku and gang always "training" is weird. Goku for example is an accomplished martial artist. What more can he do? Ok you stretch your legs, weigh weights, practice a kata. But how exactly does that make you suddenly faster than Burter or stronger than Recoom?

The SS thing makes sense since it transforms his body. But How does training over and over even work? Has he not figured out how to punch in 30 years?

[MasenkoHA]

I think Goku and gang always "training" is weird. Goku for example is an accomplished martial artist. What more can he do? Ok you stretch your legs, weigh weights, practice a kata. But how exactly does that make you suddenly faster than Burter or stronger than Recoom?

The SS thing makes sense since it transforms his body. But How does training over and over even work? Has he not figured out how to punch in 30 years?

D-do you think people stay physically fit if they stop working out and exercising?

[GTx10]

I think Goku and gang always "training" is weird. Goku for example is an accomplished martial artist. What more can he do? Ok you stretch your legs, weigh weights, practice a kata. But how exactly does that make you suddenly faster than Burter or stronger than Recoom?

The SS thing makes sense since it transforms his body. But How does training over and over even work? Has he not figured out how to punch in 30 years?

D-do you think people stay physically fit if they stop working out and exercising?

No.

But when isn't Goku exercising? Take Vegeta's comment in Super Hero for example: He said that Jiren wasn't that much different in strength compared to him but rather he knew when and how to get the most out of his attacks. Goku and Vegeta at this point are training with high ranking gods and they don't grasp that? Even Whis said working their muscles overboard isn't the proper way.

Granted this is a writing issue but at this point Son Goku at the very least should know when and how to get the max power from any one of this attacks. Rather what should trip him up more is fighting a new character and not knowing their style of combat, but once he learns it he should be able to best them. Which he does do but then a power up gets brought out and suddenly the tables are turned. It gets old fast.

[Zephyr]

words

Re: Goku Attracts Bad Guys
Goku staying dead after the Cell Games is another fucky one. Goku says: "Bulma told me once I attract bad guys...and I kinda think she's right! Earth'll have a better shot at peace if I'm not around. Kaio sees my point, too." And then on the next page he says: "Gohan's more dependable than I ever was, anyway." To which Gohan replies: "That's not true, dad..!" I'm pretty sure Bulma's observation was an off-panel comment, so we have no idea where that conversation would have taken place, and thus what bad guys all Bulma had in mind.

Bulma's observation isn't necessarily incorrect, but Goku makes a leap in logic from it I have trouble justifying. Bad guys like Piccolo, Freeza, and Gero were attracted to Goku out of revenge, because he prevented them from doing the bad things they wanted to do, which was a good thing to do. If Goku's dead and more bad guys try to do bad things, they will be stopped by someone else (ie: Gohan), who by Bulma's reasoning would then be the "bad guy magnet", and who by Goku's reasoning might better serve Earth by simply not being on it. Raditz came for Goku specifically, but he would have shown up even if Goku was dead, so Goku not being on Earth wouldn't avoid that bad guy showing up. Vegeta came for the Dragon Balls. Nothing about Goku's presence on Earth "attracts bad guys" in a way that Goku leaving Earth would mitigate. That Bobbidi shows up without Goku being there is another mark against that.

It might have been more interesting if instead Goku was reflecting on the fact that he's too accommodating to bad and dangerous people, and thus would better serve Earth by staying away. That would be an interesting route to take. Him talking about Earth having a better shot at peace without him around, and calling Gohan more dependable, almost kinda gesture in that sort of direction even. But Cell becoming Perfect and Cell blowing himself up were the result of Vegeta and Gohan, respectively, being too accommodating to bad and dangerous people. Not that 'accommodating' is necessarily the right word to describe Gohan wanting Cell to suffer more before dying, but regardless, it wasn't Goku's fuck up, it was Gohan's. So this shouldn't be the thing that sparks that reflection in Goku. Him being arrogant about the Boo situation and indulging Vegeta, which swiftly resulted in the eradication of Earth and just about its entire population, would have better served that purpose.

So, Bulma's observation is true in a way, but in a way that doesn't entail Goku's subsequent conclusion. Gohan even correctly pokes a hole in part of it: he is not more dependable than Goku. Gohan vs. Cell contains many echoes of Goku vs. Daimao, and an important place where they differ is that Goku didn't need his master's ghost motivating him to get the job done from the afterlife, while Gohan very much did. And, as said, Gohan also fucked around and allowed Cell to get desperate, resulting in the near destruction of the planet, warranting Goku's sacrifice in the first place.

I hesitate to treat this as an instance of Toriyama trying to present bad reasoning as good reasoning, because Gohan immediately pokes a hole in it (though, not every hole worth poking). That leaves me wondering, what was the intent here? Was the intent for Goku's reasoning about attracting bad guys to be sound, but his point about Gohan being dependable unsound? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, I'm left wanting for more reasons, and I think some are available.

(Also, "and Kaio sees my point, too"? That's strike two for Mr. "The Super Saiyan is making Son Goku act like Son Goku!" Maybe Kaio is meant to be an idiot?)

---

Re: Warriors in the Afterlife
After the "Bulma said I attract bad guys and she's right!" comment, but before the "Gohan is more dependable than me!" comment, Goku says: "Hey, I'm not bein' a martyr! They're going to give me special treatment here 'cuz I saved the planet. Regular people and bad guys like Cell turn into spirits, but I get to keep my own body, I won't age anymore...and I get to meet all the great old martial arts masters from history! Kaio could've come back to life with Shenlong's wish, but he's staying to keep me company."

You raise a good point that Goku would have been perfectly capable of teleporting to the afterlife to meet, train with, and fight these old masters even if he had survived the Cell Games, or been wished back using the Namekian Dragon Balls. But it's unclear if he would have had the freedom or time to do so. When Goku gets Chichi's blessing to take Gohan with him into the Room of Spirit and Time, she makes it conditional: "But once this fight is over, I won't let you interfere in his studies again. And I want you to get a job!" Goku says: "...okay. Thanks!"

It's also unclear if going to where all the old masters are is part of the "special treatment" he got for saving the planet. Would Kaio have told him about that if he hadn't already decided to stay dead? Granted, it's also unclear if Kaio told him about this treat before or after the decision to stay dead. Did Goku simply make some faulty leaps in logic from Bulma's observation, and then get an unexpected reward for it? Or did Kaio tell him about this, and he decided it was worth making some flimsy excuses to pursue? Was Kaio only willing to tell him more about these masters if Goku stayed dead, and thus Goku had to stay dead to access them? Or would Kaio have told him regardless, but the looming specter of employment had him doubt that he'd have the freedom or time to go and see them? Was the allure of staying in his physical prime part of it?

We can't know, because we're not given enough details. I don't think there's anything that necessarily entails the "Goku is lying because he wants to fight the strong guys" read above other available ones, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me. Especially given that Goku's reasoning is faulty and it's pointed out to be such. Of course, "Goku's just that dumb" is also a perfectly valid option.

Another option that sort of synthesizes the "Goku means to say that he's too accommodating to bad and dangerous guys" read with the "Goku wants to fight strong dead guys" read, is that Goku could be seeking the dead martial arts masters as a healthy outlet and alternative. He can't endanger Earth with his Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome if he's grappling with it in heaven.

Finally, you're right that Goku could simply use his "one day" to visit Namek and have them use their Dragon Balls to revive him, if he indeed was bored up there. Though, on the read that he did get bored, nothing points to him getting bored at any specific point. It could have been a recent thing. It also could have been a thing where he was willing to sleep in the bed he made for himself. He's dead now, this is his 'life', even if he's bored.

---

Re: Boo arc
The rivalry between Goku and Vegeta is indeed a bit overstated both in the fandom and officially. It's much more one-sided than you'd think if you hadn't read or watched the original series. Granted, in the Cell arc I do see there being a rivalry between the two, particularly regarding who's going to make a better Super Saiyan, and who's going to defeat Cell. An indirect rivalry, in a way.

Regardless, I don't think Goku's entirely disinterested in fighting Vegeta during the Boo arc. After Vegeta says he wants to enter the tournament to fight Gohan, Goku suddenly chimes in saying he'll go as well: "If you guys are both fighting, I want to be in on it too!"

Good point about the panel. You're right that it comes before Vegeta powers up fully and could be indicative of smugness. At the same time though, it comes right after Gohan says he's sorry about how the day turned out, and thus comes across to me like a (non-)response to what Gohan is saying. Like "don't worry, I'm not". Though there's certainly the option of "it ain't over yet, watch this". I think there's room for both.

I also have no doubt that Goku's more willing to indulge in fighting once he gets his blood pumping. That said, I don't think it's for nothing that Goku threatens Kaioshin when the latter tries to get in the way (that could have solely been the righteous indignation, but I doubt it). And once they're teleported to the wasteland, Kaioshin says "Fight it out to your heart's content", before he and Gohan descend into the ship.

I think the timing of Goku's "one day" is interesting. This guy could have come back at any other point in time, but he chooses a time when Gohan and Vegeta are participating in a martial arts tournament. There's obviously the element of "my friends and family are doing my favorite thing", so of course he would come back for that, especially given that his son in particular (the strongest person on Earth, last time he was there) is finally available for a match. But like, how did he know? Is he watching them constantly just waiting for the perfect time? Was it a crazy coincidence? Did he hear the word "tournament" all the way in the Afterlife and his ears perked up?

Ultimately, while it's merely one of many options regarding interpretation of Goku's actions in the Cell and Boo arcs, my basic thought is that Goku employed some poor reasoning to justify seeking new challenges in the Afterlife (since Vegeta couldn't keep up, and Gohan was retiring), which turned out also to not keep up in the end, and so when he had Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta dropped in front of him, he realized it was probably the best fight he'd ever get at that point. Which is sad, but it plays into both Goku's value system and actions, as well as the theme of "what happens when you're too good at strength cultivation?" It might be motivated reasoning in part, but if there's a reading of the text available that offers a thematic through-line across almost the entire story of the comic (from Roshi's talk of bigger fish in the 21st TB, to his actions with Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, Gero, Cell, Vegeta again, and Boo), I'm taking it.

---

Re: Training for Gero
You're right, Goku is always training. But there's a difference between training for training's sake, and training with a specific upcoming challenge in mind. This point makes me think again of Roshi's talk with Namu at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai: "If one of those little kids won the strongest under the heavens title, it would go straight to his head. He'd think he had nothing left to learn. But with a little humility and determination...I could turn them both into the greatest fighters ever!" If there are no new challenges to look forward to, no rematches to settle, no bigger fish to take down, how hard are you really going to push yourself? Probably not as hard as you would if you still had a lot to prove.

We know Piccolo trained and developed a new finishing move during the 5 years of peacetime after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, in anticipation of an eventual rematch with Goku. You mention Vegeta training in the gravity chamber, which is true, but he also says "I will go beyond...beyond even the Super Saiyan..." before the 3 year time skip. Goku being a Super Saiyan is motivating that. Seeing yet another Super Saiyan, and hearing about dudes even stronger than a Super Saiyan, no doubt further motivate that. Vegeta has a goal he is pushing towards, he is not simply training for training's sake.

Goku also requests Piccolo and Gohan (as well as others who turn him down) as sparring partners, which presumably yields better results than training by oneself. I don't see Goku doing that if there weren't an upcoming fight.

So, basically, the existence of bigger fish, the hunger for a rematch after losing, awareness of an upcoming competition or fight to the death, and having training partners are all things that either motivate or facilitate more effective training.

You bring up Yardrat, but all Vegeta says about that is: "I know you...you wouldn't just leave without gaining something...they have no strength, but they use strange techniques...I'll bet you were learning from them...!" Which Goku confirms, before showing them his ability to teleport. So, Goku wasn't training to get stronger on Yardrat (as far as we know), but rather to learn strange new techniques. That's a different beast entirely.

Now, we could say they weren't taking it as seriously as they could have, given that neither Goku nor God suggest using the Room of Spirit and Time. That is indeed a kinda silly consequence of Toriyama not thinking about the RoSaT at the beginning of the arc. Kind of a "Super Saiyan 3 retcon" situation in a way, that warrants some acknowledgement in the story. Only, where Goku not using Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta got an acknowledgement that left me wanting, the Room of Spirit and Time got none.

Can we infer any reasons why Goku and God didn't suggest it? I think so. Given that Goku knew about it, he had to have been confident enough in normal-but-goal-oriented training that he didn't think RoSaT-training was needed. Given the fact that their normal-but-goal-oriented training was not, in fact, enough, Goku's judgment here was incorrect. When he does suggest it, Piccolo (ie: God) is surprised, and says: "Of course...but nobody has been able to stay for the whole year in that room. You could barely stand a month in your youth..." So, there's no established precedent for when someone is ready for the RoSaT, since nobody has lasted a full year yet. I could understand Goku not bringing it up if he also thought that nobody was ready for it yet, 3 years prior. But, now everybody's stronger so they have a better chance of handling it than they did 3 years prior, and it's sorta the last resort; if not now, when?

---

Re: Four Star Ball
Goku doesn't actually drop his personal quest in order to revive Bora. Goku tentatively completes his quest and acquires the Four Star Ball from Bora before Tao Pai Pai arrives. After Bora is dead and Goku recovers, the latter resolves to gather the rest of the Balls to revive the former. Goku even finds a way to have his cake and eat it to, when he spots the Four Star Ball in the sky as it's about to fly away, jumps into the air, and catches the thing. That's not to say Roshi wasn't accurately describing Goku's quest to revive Bora as "heroic", but he certainly didn't abandon his own quest, in part because he had no need to.

---

Re: Piccolo
You're right that Goku offers a pragmatic justification for letting Piccolo leave that he didn't for Vegeta or Freeza: if Piccolo dies, God dies, and the Dragon Balls disappear. Though, he does also say: "Besides, I don't like the idea o' losin' my arch-enemy yet." Piccolo then calls him naive, and threatens to come back and kill him and take over the world. As Piccolo leaves Kuririn asks why Goku didn't seal him away, and calls him a moron. So, this is very much a mixed action on Goku's part. That's why it's transitional between the way he reacts to baddies in the Red Ribbon Army arc and the Saiyan arc. Also, him letting Piccolo get a free hit in did not have any pragmatic foundation.

As for Piccolo's moral growth: when Piccolo first leaves Gohan to his 6 months of wilderness survival training, God is watching and says: "Our Piccolo...it seems that he is indeed different from before...he is definitely evil, but it feels like the crude, cunning violence he once had is gone..." Popo agrees and says that he's no longer "the 'Daimao' of old". He's not a demon anymore, which is why Raditz's soul went to the Afterlife. And you're right, Goku did say that about Piccolo. While Gohan and Piccolo are resting at night during their six months of combat training, Gohan says "But daddy used to say...you're not as bad of a guy as you used to be, before you died and came back. I think he's right..." We could use that to interpret Goku as seeing Ma Junior as less evil from the getgo, and that might justify him being a bit more reckless, giving the free hit, not sealing him away, etc. On the other hand, we could also interpret the fact that Piccolo left after the match, and then didn't stir anything up for half a decade as being what lead Goku to that conclusion in the first place. In which case we couldn't use that to justify his recklessness during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Regardless, yeah, Piccolo isn't as bad as Daimao was, and Goku had some practical reasons for what he did at the tournament. But those reasons were mixed with selfish ones, endemic to Goku's unending and increasingly-precarious search for worthy opponents.

-----
-----

I think Goku and gang always "training" is weird. Goku for example is an accomplished martial artist. What more can he do? Ok you stretch your legs, weigh weights, practice a kata. But how exactly does that make you suddenly faster than Burter or stronger than Recoom?

The SS thing makes sense since it transforms his body. But How does training over and over even work? Has he not figured out how to punch in 30 years?

To plagiarize a needlessly-spicy post of mine from earlier this year: there's a difference between physical training and mental/spiritual training. This is helpfully explained officially in the Super Exciting Guide:

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

It is also helpfully explained unofficially in the Wuxia Thread:

In both Wuxia and real life kung fu, martial arts exercises and techniques can generally be broken down into two main categories: external (Wai, represented by Yang) and internal (Nei, represented by Yin).

External kung fu is about what you'd expect: it focuses primarily on the tangibly physical (building/improving muscles, tendons, reflexes, flexibility, etc) and concerns itself with techniques such as basic punches and kicks, grappling, etc. Things that any martial artist of any school or any skill level is bound to learn about right off the bat. This sort of training builds a fighter's personal power (or Li).

Internal however, is where the real meat lies. Internal martial arts is the training and honing of a fighter's focus, breathing, awareness, and things of that nature. In real life martial arts, internal martial arts training helps improve a fighter's psychology, patience, understanding of their surroundings in the heat of a fight, and can even help with SOME physical attributes (to an extent), particularly stamina and resistance to pain.

In the fantasy genre of Wuxia however, internal martial arts training is something profoundly more spiritual and the key to unlocking the (often literal) power of a god. In Wuxia, internal martial arts training is the primary means (shy of some sort of plot-specific magical ability-granting weapon/artifact/MacGuffin) by which the fighters of the Wulin community build their Ki (spiritual power).

Unfortunately, Toriyama never spells this out in the story itself as explicitly as one would like (add it to the list). But this is the basic idea. It also makes Goku's line about "meditation not being real training" in Super Hero really dumb.

[ABED]

I think Goku and gang always "training" is weird. Goku for example is an accomplished martial artist. What more can he do? Ok you stretch your legs, weigh weights, practice a kata. But how exactly does that make you suddenly faster than Burter or stronger than Recoom?

The SS thing makes sense since it transforms his body. But How does training over and over even work? Has he not figured out how to punch in 30 years?

D-do you think people stay physically fit if they stop working out and exercising?

No.

But when isn't Goku exercising? Take Vegeta's comment in Super Hero for example: He said that Jiren wasn't that much different in strength compared to him but rather he knew when and how to get the most out of his attacks. Goku and Vegeta at this point are training with high ranking gods and they don't grasp that? Even Whis said working their muscles overboard isn't the proper way.

Granted this is a writing issue but at this point Son Goku at the very least should know when and how to get the max power from any one of this attacks. Rather what should trip him up more is fighting a new character and not knowing their style of combat, but once he learns it he should be able to best them. Which he does do but then a power up gets brought out and suddenly the tables are turned. It gets old fast.

This is a writing issue, but not in the sense that you mean. They do know those things. Super seems to want to make it seem like they don't. Or maybe Jiren is on another level of economy of movement.

[tonysoprano300]

In the Cell arc they were both equally culpable, I think my issue with using the fact that they were going to train as meaningful preparation is that this is Goku, the guy is gonna train regardless of the circumstance he finds himself in.

...So? They're all specifically training for this fight, a fight that Goku actively contributes to. "Him training to fight the Androids doesn't count as preparation because training is something he'd be doing anyway" feels like grasping at straws so you can maintain your claim that they did nothing about the Android threat.

Hell he just came back from Yardrat where he was training hard, in the Buu arc they had 7 years of peace and they still trained extremely hard in those years. Its not necessarily a meaningful action thats specific to the android problem, they didnt really undergo anything special compared to something like Goku desperately seeking out Kaio to prepare for the saiyans. So when I say they didnt do anything meaningful, thats essentially what I mean. In fairness to Vegeta, he at least underwent extreme gravity training.

Your logic is that training to fight the Androids doesn't count as prep because training is something Goku would be doing anyway without a looming threat. By your own logic then, Goku training under Kaio doesn't count as prep for the Saiyan invasion for the same reason.

You say Goku "desperately" sought out Kaio to prepare for the Saiyans and that makes the difference, but he didn't seek out Kaio of his own accord- Kami pulled some strings to let him keep his body as a dead guy then told him to go find Kaio to prepare for the Saiyan invasion. Goku training under Kaio was the result of divine intervention on Kami's part, it wasn't something Goku proactively did on his own like you're implying with your comparison to Vegeta's gravity training.

Without Kami's involvement, Goku (had he survived the Raditz battle) would have likely just done normal training on his own and gotten stronger that way (He wouldn't have Kaioken or the Genki Dama though so he might have been screwed against Vegeta, assuming things played out the same way). And like you said with the Androids- Training is something Goku would likely have been doing anyway even with no Saiyan threat on the horizon. Hell, we know he's been training for the sake of training prior to the Raditz fight as he reveals during that fight that he's been wearing weighted clothing.

I never said it wasnt preparation, I just said it wasnt meaningful. I judge the characters given the context they find themselves in and with the information they have at the time. So for example, if Kami never got involved I wouldnt be able to really fault Goku because he would have no idea about anything related to Kaio and in theory would be doing the best he could with the information he had.

The android arc, is not held to those same conditions. Like I said, Goku didnt even do any type of gravity training or subject himself to any special training conditions to deal with the Android threat. Vegeta is the one who actually did, and thus he made the biggest strides out of everyone there.

So i mean its apples to oranges, clearly DB has shown that when threats are on the horizon that the characters will undergo something extraordinary to make sure they are ready. This is true when Goku trained with God himself in preparation for Piccolo at the 23rd World Martial Tournament, its true when the dragon team prepped for the saiyans by training with Kami, its true when goku prepped in 100X gravity for namek etc. But all of a sudden when the Androids are on the horizon who he knows are much more powerful than SSJs, Goku cant be bothered? doesnt make sense

words

Re: Goku Attracts Bad Guys
Goku staying dead after the Cell Games is another fucky one. Goku says: "Bulma told me once I attract bad guys...and I kinda think she's right! Earth'll have a better shot at peace if I'm not around. Kaio sees my point, too." And then on the next page he says: "Gohan's more dependable than I ever was, anyway." To which Gohan replies: "That's not true, dad..!" I'm pretty sure Bulma's observation was an off-panel comment, so we have no idea where that conversation would have taken place, and thus what bad guys all Bulma had in mind.

Bulma's observation isn't necessarily incorrect, but Goku makes a leap in logic from it I have trouble justifying. Bad guys like Piccolo, Freeza, and Gero were attracted to Goku out of revenge, because he prevented them from doing the bad things they wanted to do, which was a good thing to do. If Goku's dead and more bad guys try to do bad things, they will be stopped by someone else (ie: Gohan), who by Bulma's reasoning would then be the "bad guy magnet", and who by Goku's reasoning might better serve Earth by simply not being on it. Raditz came for Goku specifically, but he would have shown up even if Goku was dead, so Goku not being on Earth wouldn't avoid that bad guy showing up. Vegeta came for the Dragon Balls. Nothing about Goku's presence on Earth "attracts bad guys" in a way that Goku leaving Earth would mitigate. That Bobbidi shows up without Goku being there is another mark against that.

It might have been more interesting if instead Goku was reflecting on the fact that he's too accommodating to bad and dangerous people, and thus would better serve Earth by staying away. That would be an interesting route to take. Him talking about Earth having a better shot at peace without him around, and calling Gohan more dependable, almost kinda gesture in that sort of direction even. But Cell becoming Perfect and Cell blowing himself up were the result of Vegeta and Gohan, respectively, being too accommodating to bad and dangerous people. Not that 'accommodating' is necessarily the right word to describe Gohan wanting Cell to suffer more before dying, but regardless, it wasn't Goku's fuck up, it was Gohan's. So this shouldn't be the thing that sparks that reflection in Goku. Him being arrogant about the Boo situation and indulging Vegeta, which swiftly resulted in the eradication of Earth and just about its entire population, would have better served that purpose.

So, Bulma's observation is true in a way, but in a way that doesn't entail Goku's subsequent conclusion. Gohan even correctly pokes a hole in part of it: he is not more dependable than Goku. Gohan vs. Cell contains many echoes of Goku vs. Daimao, and an important place where they differ is that Goku didn't need his master's ghost motivating him to get the job done from the afterlife, while Gohan very much did. And, as said, Gohan also fucked around and allowed Cell to get desperate, resulting in the near destruction of the planet, warranting Goku's sacrifice in the first place.

I hesitate to treat this as an instance of Toriyama trying to present bad reasoning as good reasoning, because Gohan immediately pokes a hole in it (though, not every hole worth poking). That leaves me wondering, what was the intent here? Was the intent for Goku's reasoning about attracting bad guys to be sound, but his point about Gohan being dependable unsound? Maybe, maybe not. Either way, I'm left wanting for more reasons, and I think some are available.

(Also, "and Kaio sees my point, too"? That's strike two for Mr. "The Super Saiyan is making Son Goku act like Son Goku!" Maybe Kaio is meant to be an idiot?)

---

Re: Warriors in the Afterlife
After the "Bulma said I attract bad guys and she's right!" comment, but before the "Gohan is more dependable than me!" comment, Goku says: "Hey, I'm not bein' a martyr! They're going to give me special treatment here 'cuz I saved the planet. Regular people and bad guys like Cell turn into spirits, but I get to keep my own body, I won't age anymore...and I get to meet all the great old martial arts masters from history! Kaio could've come back to life with Shenlong's wish, but he's staying to keep me company."

You raise a good point that Goku would have been perfectly capable of teleporting to the afterlife to meet, train with, and fight these old masters even if he had survived the Cell Games, or been wished back using the Namekian Dragon Balls. But it's unclear if he would have had the freedom or time to do so. When Goku gets Chichi's blessing to take Gohan with him into the Room of Spirit and Time, she makes it conditional: "But once this fight is over, I won't let you interfere in his studies again. And I want you to get a job!" Goku says: "...okay. Thanks!"

It's also unclear if going to where all the old masters are is part of the "special treatment" he got for saving the planet. Would Kaio have told him about that if he hadn't already decided to stay dead? Granted, it's also unclear if Kaio told him about this treat before or after the decision to stay dead. Did Goku simply make some faulty leaps in logic from Bulma's observation, and then get an unexpected reward for it? Or did Kaio tell him about this, and he decided it was worth making some flimsy excuses to pursue? Was Kaio only willing to tell him more about these masters if Goku stayed dead, and thus Goku had to stay dead to access them? Or would Kaio have told him regardless, but the looming specter of employment had him doubt that he'd have the freedom or time to go and see them? Was the allure of staying in his physical prime part of it?

We can't know, because we're not given enough details. I don't think there's anything that necessarily entails the "Goku is lying because he wants to fight the strong guys" read above other available ones, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me. Especially given that Goku's reasoning is faulty and it's pointed out to be such. Of course, "Goku's just that dumb" is also a perfectly valid option.

Another option that sort of synthesizes the "Goku means to say that he's too accommodating to bad and dangerous guys" read with the "Goku wants to fight strong dead guys" read, is that Goku could be seeking the dead martial arts masters as a healthy outlet and alternative. He can't endanger Earth with his Olympic Gold Medalist Syndrome if he's grappling with it in heaven.

Finally, you're right that Goku could simply use his "one day" to visit Namek and have them use their Dragon Balls to revive him, if he indeed was bored up there. Though, on the read that he did get bored, nothing points to him getting bored at any specific point. It could have been a recent thing. It also could have been a thing where he was willing to sleep in the bed he made for himself. He's dead now, this is his 'life', even if he's bored.

---

Re: Boo arc
The rivalry between Goku and Vegeta is indeed a bit overstated both in the fandom and officially. It's much more one-sided than you'd think if you hadn't read or watched the original series. Granted, in the Cell arc I do see there being a rivalry between the two, particularly regarding who's going to make a better Super Saiyan, and who's going to defeat Cell. An indirect rivalry, in a way.

Regardless, I don't think Goku's entirely disinterested in fighting Vegeta during the Boo arc. After Vegeta says he wants to enter the tournament to fight Gohan, Goku suddenly chimes in saying he'll go as well: "If you guys are both fighting, I want to be in on it too!"

Good point about the panel. You're right that it comes before Vegeta powers up fully and could be indicative of smugness. At the same time though, it comes right after Gohan says he's sorry about how the day turned out, and thus comes across to me like a (non-)response to what Gohan is saying. Like "don't worry, I'm not". Though there's certainly the option of "it ain't over yet, watch this". I think there's room for both.

I also have no doubt that Goku's more willing to indulge in fighting once he gets his blood pumping. That said, I don't think it's for nothing that Goku threatens Kaioshin when the latter tries to get in the way (that could have solely been the righteous indignation, but I doubt it). And once they're teleported to the wasteland, Kaioshin says "Fight it out to your heart's content", before he and Gohan descend into the ship.

I think the timing of Goku's "one day" is interesting. This guy could have come back at any other point in time, but he chooses a time when Gohan and Vegeta are participating in a martial arts tournament. There's obviously the element of "my friends and family are doing my favorite thing", so of course he would come back for that, especially given that his son in particular (the strongest person on Earth, last time he was there) is finally available for a match. But like, how did he know? Is he watching them constantly just waiting for the perfect time? Was it a crazy coincidence? Did he hear the word "tournament" all the way in the Afterlife and his ears perked up?

Ultimately, while it's merely one of many options regarding interpretation of Goku's actions in the Cell and Boo arcs, my basic thought is that Goku employed some poor reasoning to justify seeking new challenges in the Afterlife (since Vegeta couldn't keep up, and Gohan was retiring), which turned out also to not keep up in the end, and so when he had Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta dropped in front of him, he realized it was probably the best fight he'd ever get at that point. Which is sad, but it plays into both Goku's value system and actions, as well as the theme of "what happens when you're too good at strength cultivation?" It might be motivated reasoning in part, but if there's a reading of the text available that offers a thematic through-line across almost the entire story of the comic (from Roshi's talk of bigger fish in the 21st TB, to his actions with Piccolo, Vegeta, Freeza, Gero, Cell, Vegeta again, and Boo), I'm taking it.

---

Re: Training for Gero
You're right, Goku is always training. But there's a difference between training for training's sake, and training with a specific upcoming challenge in mind. This point makes me think again of Roshi's talk with Namu at the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai: "If one of those little kids won the strongest under the heavens title, it would go straight to his head. He'd think he had nothing left to learn. But with a little humility and determination...I could turn them both into the greatest fighters ever!" If there are no new challenges to look forward to, no rematches to settle, no bigger fish to take down, how hard are you really going to push yourself? Probably not as hard as you would if you still had a lot to prove.

We know Piccolo trained and developed a new finishing move during the 5 years of peacetime after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, in anticipation of an eventual rematch with Goku. You mention Vegeta training in the gravity chamber, which is true, but he also says "I will go beyond...beyond even the Super Saiyan..." before the 3 year time skip. Goku being a Super Saiyan is motivating that. Seeing yet another Super Saiyan, and hearing about dudes even stronger than a Super Saiyan, no doubt further motivate that. Vegeta has a goal he is pushing towards, he is not simply training for training's sake.

Goku also requests Piccolo and Gohan (as well as others who turn him down) as sparring partners, which presumably yields better results than training by oneself. I don't see Goku doing that if there weren't an upcoming fight.

So, basically, the existence of bigger fish, the hunger for a rematch after losing, awareness of an upcoming competition or fight to the death, and having training partners are all things that either motivate or facilitate more effective training.

You bring up Yardrat, but all Vegeta says about that is: "I know you...you wouldn't just leave without gaining something...they have no strength, but they use strange techniques...I'll bet you were learning from them...!" Which Goku confirms, before showing them his ability to teleport. So, Goku wasn't training to get stronger on Yardrat (as far as we know), but rather to learn strange new techniques. That's a different beast entirely.

Now, we could say they weren't taking it as seriously as they could have, given that neither Goku nor God suggest using the Room of Spirit and Time. That is indeed a kinda silly consequence of Toriyama not thinking about the RoSaT at the beginning of the arc. Kind of a "Super Saiyan 3 retcon" situation in a way, that warrants some acknowledgement in the story. Only, where Goku not using Super Saiyan 3 against Vegeta got an acknowledgement that left me wanting, the Room of Spirit and Time got none.

Can we infer any reasons why Goku and God didn't suggest it? I think so. Given that Goku knew about it, he had to have been confident enough in normal-but-goal-oriented training that he didn't think RoSaT-training was needed. Given the fact that their normal-but-goal-oriented training was not, in fact, enough, Goku's judgment here was incorrect. When he does suggest it, Piccolo (ie: God) is surprised, and says: "Of course...but nobody has been able to stay for the whole year in that room. You could barely stand a month in your youth..." So, there's no established precedent for when someone is ready for the RoSaT, since nobody has lasted a full year yet. I could understand Goku not bringing it up if he also thought that nobody was ready for it yet, 3 years prior. But, now everybody's stronger so they have a better chance of handling it than they did 3 years prior, and it's sorta the last resort; if not now, when?

---

Re: Four Star Ball
Goku doesn't actually drop his personal quest in order to revive Bora. Goku tentatively completes his quest and acquires the Four Star Ball from Bora before Tao Pai Pai arrives. After Bora is dead and Goku recovers, the latter resolves to gather the rest of the Balls to revive the former. Goku even finds a way to have his cake and eat it to, when he spots the Four Star Ball in the sky as it's about to fly away, jumps into the air, and catches the thing. That's not to say Roshi wasn't accurately describing Goku's quest to revive Bora as "heroic", but he certainly didn't abandon his own quest, in part because he had no need to.

---

Re: Piccolo
You're right that Goku offers a pragmatic justification for letting Piccolo leave that he didn't for Vegeta or Freeza: if Piccolo dies, God dies, and the Dragon Balls disappear. Though, he does also say: "Besides, I don't like the idea o' losin' my arch-enemy yet." Piccolo then calls him naive, and threatens to come back and kill him and take over the world. As Piccolo leaves Kuririn asks why Goku didn't seal him away, and calls him a moron. So, this is very much a mixed action on Goku's part. That's why it's transitional between the way he reacts to baddies in the Red Ribbon Army arc and the Saiyan arc. Also, him letting Piccolo get a free hit in did not have any pragmatic foundation.

As for Piccolo's moral growth: when Piccolo first leaves Gohan to his 6 months of wilderness survival training, God is watching and says: "Our Piccolo...it seems that he is indeed different from before...he is definitely evil, but it feels like the crude, cunning violence he once had is gone..." Popo agrees and says that he's no longer "the 'Daimao' of old". He's not a demon anymore, which is why Raditz's soul went to the Afterlife. And you're right, Goku did say that about Piccolo. While Gohan and Piccolo are resting at night during their six months of combat training, Gohan says "But daddy used to say...you're not as bad of a guy as you used to be, before you died and came back. I think he's right..." We could use that to interpret Goku as seeing Ma Junior as less evil from the getgo, and that might justify him being a bit more reckless, giving the free hit, not sealing him away, etc. On the other hand, we could also interpret the fact that Piccolo left after the match, and then didn't stir anything up for half a decade as being what lead Goku to that conclusion in the first place. In which case we couldn't use that to justify his recklessness during the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Regardless, yeah, Piccolo isn't as bad as Daimao was, and Goku had some practical reasons for what he did at the tournament. But those reasons were mixed with selfish ones, endemic to Goku's unending and increasingly-precarious search for worthy opponents.

-----
-----

I think Goku and gang always "training" is weird. Goku for example is an accomplished martial artist. What more can he do? Ok you stretch your legs, weigh weights, practice a kata. But how exactly does that make you suddenly faster than Burter or stronger than Recoom?

The SS thing makes sense since it transforms his body. But How does training over and over even work? Has he not figured out how to punch in 30 years?

To plagiarize a needlessly-spicy post of mine from earlier this year: there's a difference between physical training and mental/spiritual training. This is helpfully explained officially in the Super Exciting Guide:

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki.

It is also helpfully explained unofficially in the Wuxia Thread:

In both Wuxia and real life kung fu, martial arts exercises and techniques can generally be broken down into two main categories: external (Wai, represented by Yang) and internal (Nei, represented by Yin).

External kung fu is about what you'd expect: it focuses primarily on the tangibly physical (building/improving muscles, tendons, reflexes, flexibility, etc) and concerns itself with techniques such as basic punches and kicks, grappling, etc. Things that any martial artist of any school or any skill level is bound to learn about right off the bat. This sort of training builds a fighter's personal power (or Li).

Internal however, is where the real meat lies. Internal martial arts is the training and honing of a fighter's focus, breathing, awareness, and things of that nature. In real life martial arts, internal martial arts training helps improve a fighter's psychology, patience, understanding of their surroundings in the heat of a fight, and can even help with SOME physical attributes (to an extent), particularly stamina and resistance to pain.

In the fantasy genre of Wuxia however, internal martial arts training is something profoundly more spiritual and the key to unlocking the (often literal) power of a god. In Wuxia, internal martial arts training is the primary means (shy of some sort of plot-specific magical ability-granting weapon/artifact/MacGuffin) by which the fighters of the Wulin community build their Ki (spiritual power).

Unfortunately, Toriyama never spells this out in the story itself as explicitly as one would like (add it to the list). But this is the basic idea. It also makes Goku's line about "meditation not being real training" in Super Hero really dumb.

I agree with a lot of points, so ill just highlight areas that Id like to add on.


-I totally agree that Goku's decision to stay dead to begin with made zero sense. But Goku did operate in a fairly consistent fashion that aligns with that decision during the first half of the Buu saga. Is it a faulty premise? Absolutely. Are you obligated to accept that Goku genuinely believed it to SOME degree? Id say so, otherwise there's just too many gaps in the story that the audience would be obligated to fill in. I guess you can reason that Goku stayed dead to avoid ChiChi (Which is absolutely hilarious) but i means its Goku, he never asks permission to go train he just goes. This is a guy who actively decided to be away from his family for an addition year because he wanted to train on Yardrat, then in BOG is depicted to be training with Kaio in the afterlife for leisure. With Instant Transmission, it just makes things so easy for him that ultimately he can really do whatever he wants. And I cant imagine there's any type of human labour job that Goku could just complete within a millisecond.

-I agree, that Goku probably would fight Vegeta and probably wants to fight Vegeta. I also dont think its a coincedience that he decided to use his one day for the world martial arts tourmanent, there's probably some sentimental value there given that competing in the tournaments is practically a past time for much of the cast but I'm sure goku wanted to also test himself against Gohan(given that As far as he knows, Gohan would be training up until this point and would pose the best challenge possible) I just dont think his actions make it explicit that this is like priority number 1 for him, I do get the sense that Goku was genuine about trying to stop Buu's awakening and Vegeta interference in that actually annoyed him. Vegeta did threaten to continue the body count every moment that Goku doesn't indulge him, and I'm not sure how Babidi's magic works but vegeta going on a rampage would essentially be him dealing damage to other people and thus giving energy to Buu no?So it could very well be that Goku thought that if he didn't fight Vegeta, that Majin Buu may still get the energy he needs anyway but only this time there's far more civilian casualties. Like i said, I'm not sure how that works.

You wouldn't have to twist my arm too hard to convince me that Goku in the heat of battle allowed his Saiyan nature to get the better of him, I just find him so hard to read in those pages when you have SSJ3 in mind. What is more of a priority to him, fighting Vegeta or preventing Buu? If I take his reasoning at face value, you could still frame it as the latter and judge that Goku is just not smart. If you dont then a reasonable assumption could be made that this was baser Saiyan instincts taking over. Ultimately I can see both arguments because both these things are likely motivating him, but its just hard to garner which one matters more. Its certainly very interesting, I hadn't really considered it that way before so I definitely appreciate you pointing that out.

- As for the point on training, its not too different from the other comment i responded too. Goku knows of the existence of gravity chambers, he used it to prepare for Namek because he genuinely took that threat serious. I suppose a sparring partner helps but I dont see him leveraging the resources available to him in a way that indicates legitimate concern. If Vegeta was able to both catch up to and surpass Goku within that same time frame despite Goku having a head start then I have to assume Vegeta took his training a lot more seriously than Goku. The rate of progress for Vegeta relative to Goku certainly indicates as much and In the manga panels, Vegeta is the only one who looks to be training to the point of exhaustion and with Goku all we get is a timeskip after a funny gag.

-Sorry, maybe drop isn't the right word. What I mean is that the entire reason he decided to hunt for the balls after the tournament is because they wouldnt be active for a year, at this point in the story his willingness to give it up to revive Bora reads as selfless because he would have to wait an entire year for the ball to be rejuvenated/activated again(which I imagine is an important element of maintaining the memory of his Grampa). Ultimately his trip to the RRA headquearters was all about reviving Bora, even if he didn't go there specifically for them he still took care of them because he had a moral compass. So idk, I see roshi's comment as a bit extreme of a take on Goku given that context.

-The piccolo thing is certainly complicated, I do agree Goku also wanted a rival on top of everything I said. I'm not saying I personally agree with him allowing Piccolo a free hit but just that its something I can picture him doing while still keeping inline with moral principles he abides by. Maybe its splitting hairs a little, but I do think there is a distinction between somebody doing something they know is wrong(And Goku does acknowledge that letting vegeta escape is wrong) and somebody doing something they think is ethically justified. The action itself is reckless in both scenarios, but the intention behind it is different and I'm mostly fixated on the intention component. Also am I crazy or was it not established that Mafuba doesn't work on Demon Jr? if it does, that would be probably be the biggest condemnation of Goku...but I guess its a really dangerous technique that could kill you and maybe Goku didn't think the risk was necessary? I really dont know, but thats a good point.

[Majin Buu]

I never said it wasnt preparation, I just said it wasnt meaningful.

Same difference- It still sounds like grasping at straws to justify a complaint.

I judge the characters given the context they find themselves in and with the information they have at the time. So for example, if Kami never got involved I wouldnt be able to really fault Goku because he would have no idea about anything related to Kaio and in theory would be doing the best he could with the information he had.

"Doing the best he could with the information he had" in that context would be indistinguishable from what he would be doing anyway without the looming threat, which is the logic you used to dismiss his training for the Androids.

The android arc, is not held to those same conditions. Like I said, Goku didnt even do any type of gravity training or subject himself to any special training conditions to deal with the Android threat. Vegeta is the one who actually did, and thus he made the biggest strides out of everyone there.

Again, so what? Training is training. In the end all that matters is that the character comes out of it a better fighter than they were going into it. Implying that the training always has to be super special to be "meaningful" beyond that just because there's a threat coming feels arbitrary to me.

Also, you citing Vegeta's training from hell as "meaningful" training for the Android threat is a little weird considering his primary motivation there was besting Goku and proving he's the strongest- not so much stopping the looming threat.

But then, this logic of yours stems from your broader "they did nothing to prepare for the Androids" argument, which I don't entirely agree with (or care about) to begin with.

So i mean its apples to oranges, clearly DB has shown that when threats are on the horizon that the characters will undergo something extraordinary to make sure they are ready.

This here is what I'm also taking issue with: You're making it sound like "meaningful" training for threats is something the characters have always proactively made a point to do until they just decided not to with the Androids when that's not really the case. The example you used of Goku training with Kaio was one instance of you overstating how proactive Goku was in training for a coming threat while ignoring the details that show he wasn't all that proactive in doing so.

This is true when Goku trained with God himself in preparation for Piccolo at the 23rd World Martial Tournament

This is another instance. Kami effectively drafted Goku into fighting Ma Junior. The way you've been describing how proactive these characters have been in stopping threats makes it sound like Goku was just down there on Earth, heard through the grapevine that Piccolo was still around, then decided right there to get ready for the inevitable rematch by seeking out some specialized training from Kami. No. Kami told him "Piccolo's still alive and Popo and I can't kill him so you gotta do it"; and Goku only met with Kami in the first place to get the Dragon Balls restored to revive Daimao's victims- Kami just granted Goku that in exchange for Goku agreeing to stay and train to kill Junior in 3 years.

You're making these characters sound like they're more proactive about stopping threats than they actually are.

[tonysoprano300]

I never said it wasnt preparation, I just said it wasnt meaningful.

Same difference- It still sounds like grasping at straws to justify a complaint.

I judge the characters given the context they find themselves in and with the information they have at the time. So for example, if Kami never got involved I wouldnt be able to really fault Goku because he would have no idea about anything related to Kaio and in theory would be doing the best he could with the information he had.

"Doing the best he could with the information he had" in that context would be indistinguishable from what he would be doing anyway without the looming threat, which is the logic you used to dismiss his training for the Androids.

The android arc, is not held to those same conditions. Like I said, Goku didnt even do any type of gravity training or subject himself to any special training conditions to deal with the Android threat. Vegeta is the one who actually did, and thus he made the biggest strides out of everyone there.

Again, so what? Training is training. In the end all that matters is that the character comes out of it a better fighter than they were going into it. Implying that the training always has to be super special to be "meaningful" beyond that just because there's a threat coming feels arbitrary to me.

Also, you citing Vegeta's training from hell as "meaningful" training for the Android threat is a little weird considering his primary motivation there was besting Goku and proving he's the strongest- not so much stopping the looming threat.

But then, this logic of yours stems from your broader "they did nothing to prepare for the Androids" argument, which I don't entirely agree with (or care about) to begin with.

So i mean its apples to oranges, clearly DB has shown that when threats are on the horizon that the characters will undergo something extraordinary to make sure they are ready.

This here is what I'm also taking issue with: You're making it sound like "meaningful" training for threats is something the characters have always proactively made a point to do until they just decided not to with the Androids when that's not really the case. The example you used of Goku training with Kaio was one instance of you overstating how proactive Goku was in training for a coming threat while ignoring the details that show he wasn't all that proactive in doing so.

This is true when Goku trained with God himself in preparation for Piccolo at the 23rd World Martial Tournament

This is another instance. Kami effectively drafted Goku into fighting Ma Junior. The way you've been describing how proactive these characters have been in stopping threats makes it sound like Goku was just down there on Earth, heard through the grapevine that Piccolo was still around, then decided right there to get ready for the inevitable rematch by seeking out some specialized training from Kami. No. Kami told him "Piccolo's still alive and Popo and I can't kill him so you gotta do it"; and Goku only met with Kami in the first place to get the Dragon Balls restored to revive Daimao's victims- Kami just granted Goku that in exchange for Goku agreeing to stay and train to kill Junior in 3 years.

You're making these characters sound like they're more proactive about stopping threats than they actually are.

-Ok, to me someone saying "you didnt do enough" is very different than saying "you didnt do anything". If those statements are essentially the same to you, then so be it. Its not the same to me.

-No, I mean process matters....this is an understanding that is universally shared amongst all of civilized society. You do realize that two people can commit the same act and be judged completely differently? A guy who intentionally makes bad decisions is extremely different from a guy who's hands were completely tied and forced into a bad position with little information. Intentionality is everything, the reasons behind people's actions matter.

If Goku knew about Kaio in the saiyan arc and said "No thanks, I'm just gonna train on my own" then you would actually have a point but thats not what happened.

Again, so what? Training is training. In the end all that matters is that the character comes out of it a better fighter than they were going into it. Implying that the training always has to be super special to be "meaningful" beyond that just because there's a threat coming feels arbitrary to me.

Also, you citing Vegeta's training from hell as "meaningful" training for the Android threat is a little weird considering his primary motivation there was besting Goku and proving he's the strongest- not so much stopping the looming threat.

But then, this logic of yours stems from your broader "they did nothing to prepare for the Androids" argument, which I don't entirely agree with (or care about) to begin with.

I just fundamentally disagree with that premise, if someone is made consciously aware of an apocalyptic future and actively decides to not leverage all of the resources at their disposal for no valid reason whatsoever then yes they are worthy of criticism.

I agree Vegeta's motives were not altruistic, but thats really besides point which is that he explicity shows that there are tools to be leveraged to give them the best possible chance, and that the others simply decided not to do it.

This here is what I'm also taking issue with: You're making it sound like "meaningful" training for threats is something the characters have always proactively made a point to do until they just decided not to with the Androids when that's not really the case. The example you used of Goku training with Kaio was one instance of you overstating how proactive Goku was in training for a coming threat while ignoring the details that show he wasn't all that proactive in doing so.

But he was proactive in doing so...actually you tell me. How exactly was Goku not proactive in the saiyan arc based on the information that was available to him at the time? Nobody told him about Kaio prior to that point and he had no clue that the oppurtunity even existed until Kami decided to tell him because he was dead. When Goku was told about Kaio, he immediately sought him out with a sense of desperation and told the others not to revive him until one year had passed.

The broader argument of the characters not necessarily being proactive is belied by the fact that they all trained with Kami on the lookout to prep for the saiyans, the only exception being Gohan and Piccolo. One was a 4 year old kid who was kidnapped, and the other is the one who actually kidnapped him(and despises Kami).

It is true that Goku didnt seek out Kami to train for Piccolo(because obviously he thought Piccolo was dead) But once he was made aware that Piccolo is going to return, he does exactly that. He decides to stay up there for years in preparation despite the fact that he didnt particularly enjoy it(stated by Goku himself at the end of the 23rd world martial tournament). But if you want, we can even ignore this example entirely because Goku decided he wanted to train there far before he even met Kami and was only further motivated(righteously i might add) when he learned of Piccolo.

[Majin Buu]

Last post on this because we clearly have very different views and are never going to agree or change each other's perspective.

-Ok, to me someone saying "you didnt do enough" is very different than saying "you didnt do anything". If those statements are essentially the same to you, then so be it. Its not the same to me.

It's more like I think your standards for "meaningful" training and doing enough are arbitrary.

If Goku knew about Kaio in the saiyan arc and said "No thanks, I'm just gonna train on my own" then you would actually have a point but thats not what happened.

I just fundamentally disagree with that premise, if someone is made consciously aware of an apocalyptic future and actively decides to not leverage all of the resources at their disposal for no valid reason whatsoever then yes they are worthy of criticism.

Agree to disagree then. A character achieving strength through simple rigorous training is just as valid as achieving that strength through "meaningful" special measures. Whether or not every single possible option was leveraged to get there is beside the point.

I agree Vegeta's motives were not altruistic, but thats really besides point which is that he explicity shows that there are tools to be leveraged to give them the best possible chance, and that the others simply decided not to do it.

I'd argue Vegeta needed the "meaningful" training more than Goku because he was so far behind Goku, the strongest guy, and needed to catch up or else not bother showing up. That being said, it's implied that the training itself didn't matter all that much as according to Vegeta, it wasn't the training that made him reach Super Saiyan so much as his extreme self-loathing for being weak. All the training did for him was tell him he was at his limit- something more normal training could have told him.

But he was proactive in doing so...actually you tell me. How exactly was Goku not proactive in the saiyan arc based on the information that was available to him at the time? Nobody told him about Kaio prior to that point and he had no clue that the oppurtunity even existed until Kami decided to tell him because he was dead. When Goku was told about Kaio, he immediately sought him out with a sense of desperation and told the others not to revive him until one year had passed.

My point here is that you're overstating how proactive these characters were about dealing with threats in the past- Not that they aren't proactive at all.

[Zephyr]

words

Re: Goku's Sacrifice
I don't really see how Goku's actions in the early Boo arc align with his decision to stay dead, other than "I'm coming back for a day rather than asking to be wished back". I think him coming back at all, even for a day, means he either didn't believe his own bad reasoning, didn't remember it, or didn't care. That he later stays alive and stays on Earth after Pure Boo is killed reinforces that even further.

If we took the interpretation that Goku doesn't at all believe the faulty reasoning he offers, the main gap left over practically fills itself. You've mentioned that you don't see why Goku would intentionally jeopardize the sacrifice he made at the end of the Cell arc by pursuing a fight with Vegeta, and I'm not sure that Goku even made much of a sacrifice at the end of the Cell arc in the first place. Sure, now he can't see his friends and family anymore, but how big of a downside even is that to him? As you said, he stayed out in space for a year to do Yardrat stuff. He goes years without seeing his friends after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai and Boo arcs. He didn't seem at all beat up about his decision to stay dead when he was telling everyone to not wish him back: he had a grin on his face the whole time. He doesn't even say that he'll miss them: he apologizes to Gohan, tells him to apologize to Chichi on his behalf (can't be bothered to do it himself, despite having the ability to do so via Kaio), and says he'll see everyone again when they die. This is a dude who was already not very attached to his life on Earth.

And supposing that he was much more attached to his life on Earth than the Cell arc scene makes him out to be, and thus he did actually make a significant sacrifice in staying dead, I don't see what him pursuing a fight with Vegeta does to jeopardize that. He's still dead, after all (though it is funny that him not using Super Saiyan 3 basically sets into motion a chain of events that leads to him coming back to life).

I don't see him dying at Cell's hand after teleporting him away much of a sacrifice either, because he's died before, and he could have easily come back to life. That sacrifice was also somewhat in vain, as it simply resulted in him dying and Cell getting stronger. So that was immediately undermined.

The other main gap in the "Goku is lying" interpretation is that it makes us once again question Kaio's sanity. I consider this a pretty inconsequential gap, though.

---

Re: Chichi & Training
You're right that with the Yardrat example he chose to stay out in space rather than be teleported home, without asking Chichi about it. But at the same time, he did ask Chichi for her blessing to train Gohan both times in the Cell arc. Further, he did agree to get a job as a condition for training Gohan the second time. This is the same guy who got married on the basis of a promise that he didn't understand the implications of. And while we can point to ways Goku's become an arguably worse person since the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, being someone who goes back on his word isn't something there's precedent for as far as I can recall. Though, I could see Chichi disagreeing with that on the grounds that he decided to stay dead despite there being means to come back to life, which does get him out of employment, whether that was his intent or not.

All this to me gives me the impression that, had he not died, he indeed would have gotten a job. In Super, he is alive again, and we do see him working, which makes it seem like he's finally delivering on that agreement. That said, even with a job, you're right. We see in Super that he can just finish his work, then teleport away to do some training. I guess what I'm trying to zero in on here is: would that flexibility have occurred to him prior to having a job? Perhaps, but I'm not fully confident.

In any case, if we were to dismiss Goku's bad reasoning as being made in bad faith, I don't think this is the main reason why he'd be choosing to stay dead, just an optional additional one. Honestly, even if we treat Goku's bad reasoning as well-intentioned and being made in good faith, "getting out of work" is still available as an optional additional reason. Which is funny.

---

Re: Stopping Boo's Revival
I have no doubt that Goku genuinely wanted to stop Boo's revival, at least as opposed to genuinely wanting Boo to be revived. He's clearly onboard with Kaioshin's mission as they head toward and begin working their way through Bobbidi's spaceship. That said, I never got the sense that Goku was annoyed that Vegeta was forcing him to abandon the mission, but instead angry that Vegeta was killing people. The two of them being removed from the mission doesn't even mean it's been aborted: Gohan and Kaioshin are continuing. Importantly, this happens after multiple guys Kaioshin was afraid of got easily dispatched. Vegeta complains that this is taking too long and later tells Goku that what's scary to Kaioshin doesn't really tell them much. Goku later tells Boo that they underestimated him.

I don't think we need to think of it like, "what was Goku's real priority here?", but more like: Does Goku still think he's needed to stop Boo's revival? Is Boo actually gonna be something they can't handle? One gets the sense that, as the section in Bobbidi's spaceship plays out, Goku increasingly thinks the answer to both questions is "no". And even if we remove the "underestimating Boo" part, he's still confident in Gohan, which gives one the sense that in the "fight Vegeta or prevent Boo?" dilemma, Goku thinks he can press both buttons.

---

Re: Energy for Boo
So, it's not super clear how exactly the energy absorption works.

Dabra says they can't use energy from Kaioshin or Kibito, but says that "three of them" (ie: Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta) have "great potential". So Dabra goes and baits the three of them (and Kaioshin) into the ship. Pui Pui tells them: "The damage you suffer will be converted to energy...which will be channeled into master Boo's shell!" Vegeta replies: "...Interesting. Then you won't get energy if you don't hurt me?" Pui Pui confirms: "...That's right. But not very likely." So, yeah, if you're in the ship and you get damaged/hurt, that turns into energy which gets sent to Boo's shell.

The first page of the first chapter where Goku fights Yakon shows a map of the ship, and one of the labels says "good-guy energy is transmitted to the shell here". Are Kaioshin and Kibito not "good guys"? Don't know!

After Vegeta is possessed and fires his first blast at the tournament stands, Bobbidi says "He must've killed 200 already!!" Notably, he's looking at his crystal ball, rather than Boo's shell, and he's not at all remarking on the energy that may or may not have been absorbed through the damage Vegeta did. They're still in the ship, here, too, because of the way the rooms work.

Vegeta says: "Now, Kakarrot...fight me. Unless you want to add more corpses to the pile, that is!" Emphasis again on body count, and not energy. Then Vegeta fires his second blast, and Goku transforms. Kaioshin says: "D-don't do it!!! Son Goku!!! This is what Bobbidi wants!! He'll absorb your energy and wake Boo!!!" Goku fighting Vegeta, even to put a stop to all the killing, is something Kaioshin thinks is a bad idea. So, presumably, Goku taking damage from Vegeta will give Boo a lot more energy than hundreds of normal people taking damage from Vegeta.

So, putting all of this together, here's what I gather. The stronger someone is, the more energy they can potentially supply by being hurt. Obviously, the stronger one of Bobbidi's guys is, the more likely it is that they'll be able to hurt someone. So, the three Super Saiyans have more energy to revive Boo with, and they need to be hurt (inside of the ship) in order for that to be absorbed. Vegeta probably got a very insignificant amount of energy for Boo when he killed those people in the stands, such that nobody even remarked on it, not Bobbidi, not Kaioshin, not Goku, not Vegeta himself.

---

Re: Training
I think it is reasonably inferred that Goku and everyone else are training harder than they would have been were they not warned, even if they aren't pulling out all the stops. Them not pulling out all the stops means they weren't maximally prepared, but them pulling out more stops than normal means they weren't minimally prepared either. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here on whether or not they appropriately prepared.

---

Re: Four Star Ball & Red Ribbon
I'm sure that the Four Star Ball actually looking like a Dragon Ball is an important part of the memory, given that's what it looked like when his grandpa was still around. So, sure, there's a sacrifice there in that he'll have to wait another year. I don't think that's a huge sacrifice though, given that he knows it's going to happen. It's still a very good thing of him to have done, though.

And yeah, he took the Red Ribbon guys out in part because they were bad. That's still not relevant to the global situation, though, so I don't see Roshi's comment as extreme. It's still almost entirely correct, the question simply remains of, "how would he know?"

---

Re: Mafuba
It's supposed to kill people when they use it, but Tenshinhan and God survive. Also, it's not that the technique couldn't work on Ma Jr., it's that he learned how to reverse it, which is how God was sealed inside the bottle. It's unclear if the reverse Mafuba has the same deadliness as the Mafuba itself, but it sure looks the same. If it's just as deadly, then Piccolo also survived using it. I suppose one might worry that he would simply reverse the Mafuba again, which is fair. But, I dunno, I guess you could have planted the Senzu on him before sealing him away. Seal and heal.

[Noah]

On the subject of Goku and the gang deciding not to interfere in Gero's plans to create the androids that could lay waste to their lives—just because they wanted a challenge—could this be their hubris speaking louder than the advice from Future Trunks? With a proper amount of training, with Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta, who fought alongside them on Namek, wouldn’t anything go wrong? I mean, that could feel organic if we ignore the fact that the guy who warned about these deadly androids just killed one that they worked so hard to defeat. That's why I think not bringing back Freeza would make the path to this act feel better in this arc.

[MasenkoHA]

On the subject of Goku and the gang deciding not to interfere in Gero's plans to create the androids that could lay waste to their lives—just because they wanted a challenge—could this be their hubris speaking louder than the advice from Future Trunks? With a proper amount of training, with Super Saiyan Goku and Vegeta, who fought alongside them on Namek, wouldn’t anything go wrong? I mean, that could feel organic if we ignore the fact that the guy who warned about these deadly androids just killed one that they worked so hard to defeat. That's why I think not bringing back Freeza would make the path to this act feel better in this arc.

The entire point of bringing Freeza back was "oh shit someone who defeated Freeza and his dad with ease scared shitless of these androids" and to show that this mysterious character become a Super Saiyan.

The story loses a lot of momentum skipping over Freeza

[SelfTrainedNamekian]

i have one or a couple on the movies. i now re-watch all of them in japanese. here are a couple

1. Movie 13 is criminally underated, it is by far the movie with the best story,best buildup, best writing etc. most movies are vilian of the day fight against the Z fighters and goku/gohan beats them. which is something i actually like. like for example i dident liked the cooler movie because i felt there wasent enough fight scenes between goku and cooler and the majority of the film felt like filler to me. in wrath of the dragon the movie has a lot of story to tell and it slowly builds up into the final fight with hirudagan which is by itself an anomaly because its basically a kaiju something that is fresh among dragon ball movie vilians. i wouldent call movie 13 my favorite maybe but i will admit its really have good writing and an interesting plot. the reason its not my favorite is because of that same reason that i like watching dbz movies for the badass vilians, good animation and amazing fight scenes. movie 13 felt too "heavy" for me.

2. Movie 7 - Super android 13 is yet another movie that is criminally underated. but for different reasons all together. if movie 13 is heavy on the story movie 7 is the exact opposite which is why i like it soo much. its start immidiatly. the story is very simple yet fitting. its a great take on cell with android 13 absorbing the other androids and transforms. android 13/super android 13 have a great design and great fight moments. the reason i like this movie so much. 1. i love the snow area. not much dragon ball fights are in the snow. 2. amazing fight scenes. this movie really have great animation and fight scenes. super android 13 after transforming compleatly annhilate the z fighters. they cant even touch him. goku absorbing the genki dama in ssj form was also a great twist. overall i really like this movie because its short and to the point.

3. Z broly have a lot of personality unlike what people claim. i just watched movie 8 in japanese and broly have a lot of dialouge. its in the 10th movie where he only scream kakarot. while i admit the plot that broly hates goku because he cried near him as a baby was stupid. i really dont think thats why broly really hated goku. broly was pure evil beast. he hated everyone equally. even if goku dident born in the same day as him it would not make a single difference. z broly dosent care. if he could he would destroy the entire universe just for fun. i will admit i like super's version of broly more because super's broly vendetta is against vegeta. he is the first one he attacked and the reason he was so full of rage. he dident care for goku until goku started fighting him.

4. movie 5 cooler's revenge is not a very good movie, i have a thread about this in the "in universe" forum. the movie is just not very satisfying. cooler and his final form are cool as hell but the fight with goku is extreamly short because the movie is too busy with trying to rehashing the entire namek saga in a 45 min movie. too much of this movie feel like filler. goku dying from a mere ki blast from cooler and gohan trying to hide him while evading cooler's henchmens who are just lame imo. they tried to make them like the ginyu force and it took time that could be invested in cooler's character. gohan going to korin tower to get senzu beans, escape cooler's henchmens. piccolo show up, fight with them. sauzer destory the senzu beans anyway. and we left with like 10 of cooler vs goku fight. lame

5. movie 6 metal cooler was not very good as well IMO. this one have wierd animation but its just as short as movie 5. again. 45 min movie. but the first 20 min are nothing but piccolo and gohan and krilin fighting against dumb robots. boring. and we did get some cool fightsenes between cooler and goku and vegeta. finally cooler can stand against ssj goku and vegeta at least. but still. that was very short. then we get the ending where goku and vegeta just overflowing the big gete star with their energy and the movie is over. still felt pretty unsatsifying. for those reason i would like to see a super's reboot for cooler character. they did him no justice in those movies.

here is another one that my be criminally unpopular but i prefer the rock songs from the english dubs of the Z movies over the kikuchi score in the japanese versions. i prefer the japanese dialouge in the movie but i'm feeling tired from the kikuchi score because those songs are all over the anime already. the rock songs in the dub versions feel much more original and cool to me. they also fit very much the action oriented theme of those movies. i wish there was a way to have the english dub music + the japanese voices