Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

Also add that Shin’s physical limitations are evident. He couldn’t lift the Z Sword with his own hands, suggesting that his raw strength is significantly lower than fighters like Goku or even Gohan during the Boo arc.

What? When does that happen?

Nahare and Kibito talk about it before healing Gohan’s injuries.

Chapter: 471 (DBZ 277), P10.2-4
Kaioshin: “I want Gohan to use the Z Sword to defeat Majin Boo. Knowing him, he should definitely be able to use it.”
Kibito“A-are you serious, Lord Kaioshin…?!! There’s no way that a human or the like would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…”

The point is that the Z Sword was too heavy for Nahare and Kibito to use it against Majin Boo. Gohan managed to master it in a very short period of time, and Goku managed to swing it a little even in his first attempt, shocking them both. Goku and Gohan were able to do that in their regular states.

Lastly, we could consider that Shin’s comment may reflect the general reputation of Kaioshins rather than his personal capabilities, particularly since he has been portrayed as less powerful than expected for his role in the hierarchy of gods.

That’s not true, Kaioshin says that each of the Kaioshin could defeat Freeza with a single blow. What you’re saying is just your headcanon.

It could be, but I’m basing this on how the Elder Kaioshin approaches Nahare’s strength. There is also this:

Chapter: 501 (DBZ 307), P6.7
Context: after Elder Kaioshin explains about the Potara
Kaioshin: “I-I didn’t know about them…”
Elder Kaioshin: “Young people these days really are hopeless…That’s why you’re so weak, despite being a Kaioshin. Here, test it out a little. You and Kibito can use your own Potara…”

Considering Boo arc is practically all written on challenging reputation, this comment may suggest he is not as strong as he was initially implied to be. Perhaps Nahare needed to find a partner that he could fuse and make him fight on similar terms with the other Kaioshins (by extension acquiring strength that far exceeds Freeza’s).

By the way, considering that Freeza’s transformations were a rare sight, it might be possible that Nahare wasn’t even factoring them into his assessment, much in the same way as Tarble.

That could also explain how Dabra considered Yakon more than enough to handle Nahare and the three Saiyans. Yet Goku managed to keep up with his movement even in his regular state.

The Kado entry notably emphasizes them being “roughly comparable to the Ginyu Force in Namek arc” rather than making a direct link to Freeza’s power level as stated in the OVA. This reinterpretation weakens the argument that their strength is directly tied to Freeza’s peak power in Namek.

Since when lack of evidence is evidence? Just because that entry only said something about Ginyu, does it now mean that "oh, so now what was stated in the OVA is invalid"? The entry merely stated the exact same thing that was said in the OVA "at that time, they were comparable to Ginyu Forces", so you are purposely ignoring the time gap (once again) and that it was said that they got stronger (to Freeza level). They didn't even say "in the present day, they are comparable to suppressed Freeza", they said that they had power levels roughly the same at that time ("当時はギニュー特戦隊と肩を並べていたという強者だ。"). Are you sure you aren't the one "shifting" the "reinterpretation"?

So it’s not that we’re saying base Goku is weaker than base Goten, it’s that the context around Abo and Kado’s strength remains open to interpretation, especially with newer sources adjusting earlier assumptions.

I see. So it doesn't matter the fact that Goten and Trunks are actually stronger than Abo and Cado, what matters is the "reinterpretation, newer sources adjusting earlier assumptions", is that right? We see how base Goten and Trunks perform against someone on Freeza's level, but because someone "said" that Goku still cannot defeat Freeza, that somehow means that we must ignore their performances, is that it?

I just slept on it. Tarble was talking about first-form Freeza all along. That means Abo and Kado in the “present day” (OVA) have acquired a battle power around 530,000, which doesn’t seem unreasonable, since Ginyu had a battle power of 120,000 at full power. That’s quite a leap for them, considering they don’t have anything else to base their efforts of.

[Grimlock]

Ah, I was wondering when you would use that sensible argument. However, being sensible is not what we are doing here, otherwise this whole conversation wouldn't be happening.

But for the sake of clarification, let's be rational and see where it leads us for a second: was he, though? Because Tarble is a low-class Saiyan, belonging to its lower-ranks, and because of that, he was shipped off to another planet a little after he got out of the incubator. So in reality, that comparison shouldn't even be made, as Tarble shouldn't even know about Freeza in the first place. This is why I never specified/addressed in my arguments which of his forms Tarble and your image were talking about, and because neither the OVA nor the guidebook specify that as well, they just say "Freeza".

You would need to have a source that confirms he was talking about specifically "first form" Freeza. Otherwise that comparison is to be understood as in general, which includes all forms of Freeza. Do you happen to have it?

[Yuji]

Freeza specifically mentions nobody has seen his second form and lived, let alone the other two forms after that. Why would Tarble be aware of it when Vegeta wasn't aware Freeza could transform until Zarbon told him so?

[Grimlock]

Again, that is a fair question to ask. But if you are willing to go down that route, then I must ask one sensible question of my own: how can Tarble say Abo and Cado are on Freeza's level if they never even met?

And since I can see the question "how do you know they never met?" coming from the other Universe, let me answer that already so we can move on from this quicker:

In the OVA, Vegeta says their father sent Tarble to another planet because he couldn't fight. If he couldn't fight then it is because he's a low-class Saiyan, coming from lower-ranks. Those Saiyans don't get to stay on the planet for long. They either become engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as infiltration babies, as per Toriyama. The latter is what happened to Tarble.


Also, it is unfortunate you were unable to answer this:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Right, let's approach this differently, although Vegeta says something different that doesn't really mean they can't sense his Ki, but like I said, let's try something else this time:

So, at face value, that Vegeta's statement pretty much establishes they can't sense god Ki, right? But then what about Kuririn? Also at face value, he was able to estimate his power, to the point he could even say Kaioshin of East didn't look tough. What do we make of this?

Just when I was approaching this topic using the same "logic" as you all do in this thread, which is to take everything at face value, without considering contexts, important details and whatnot...

[Yuji]

Again, that is a fair question to ask. But if you are willing to go down that route, then I must ask one sensible question of my own: how can Tarble say Abo and Cado are on Freeza's level if they never even met?

And since I can see the question "how do you know they never met?" coming from the other Universe, let me answer that already so we can move on from this quicker:

In the OVA, Vegeta says their father sent Tarble to another planet because he couldn't fight. If he couldn't fight then it is because he's a low-class Saiyan, coming from lower-ranks. Those Saiyans don't get to stay on the planet for long. They either become engineers or are sent off to a planet somewhere as infiltration babies, as per Toriyama. The latter is what happened to Tarble.


Also, it is unfortunate you were unable to answer this:

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”

Right, let's approach this differently, although Vegeta says something different that doesn't really mean they can't sense his Ki, but like I said, let's try something else this time:

So, at face value, that Vegeta's statement pretty much establishes they can't sense god Ki, right? But then what about Kuririn? Also at face value, he was able to estimate his power, to the point he could even say Kaioshin of East didn't look tough. What do we make of this?

Just when I was approaching this topic using the same "logic" as you all do in this thread, which is to take everything at face value, without considering contexts, important details and whatnot...

He doesn't need to meet Freeza or know how strong he is precisely to have a general idea of his power- that being that he's above the Ginyus. 530k is a conceivable battle power to anyone. 120M not so much.

As for the second point, I just missed the post among other notifications but I don't see what point you're trying to make. Kuririn makes no estimate of Shin's battle power on any Ki sensing. He's directly estimating it based on appearance which, if anything, further showcases how he can't sense his strength because Shin is at the very least miles ahead of Kuririn in power for him to make those comments. It's just another case of Toriyama’s favourite trope of the small guy being underestimated based on his height.

[Hugo Boss]

Ah, I was wondering when you would use that sensible argument. However, being sensible is not what we are doing here, otherwise this whole conversation wouldn't be happening.

But for the sake of clarification, let's be rational and see where it leads us for a second: was he, though? Because Tarble is a low-class Saiyan, belonging to its lower-ranks, and because of that, he was shipped off to another planet a little after he got out of the incubator. So in reality, that comparison shouldn't even be made, as Tarble shouldn't even know about Freeza in the first place. This is why I never specified/addressed in my arguments which of his forms Tarble and your image were talking about, and because neither the OVA nor the guidebook specify that as well, they just say "Freeza".

You would need to have a source that confirms he was talking about specifically "first form" Freeza. Otherwise that comparison is to be understood as in general, which includes all forms of Freeza. Do you happen to have it?

It seems we’re running in circles here, but let me clarify. The manga adaptation of the OVA explicitly depicts Tarble mentioning Freeza’s defeat while showing an image of his first form. This contextualizes the comparison as referring to that specific form of Freeza, not his full power or subsequent transformations. If you need further validation, the adaptation serves as an official extension of the narrative.

As for Tarble’s intel, the notion that he shouldn’t ‘know’ about Freeza due to being sent away as a child doesn’t disqualify the comparison. Freeza’s dominance over the Saiyan race is well-established, and even exiled Saiyans like Tarble could easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors. Tarble’s statement is consistent with Freeza’s widespread notoriety.

Regarding your general tone in this discussion, it seems the issue isn’t the validity of the arguments but dissatisfaction with their implications. It’s one thing to challenge interpretations with evidence and logic, but another to dismiss the conversation’s sensibility altogether. If you’re feeling that this debate is more about frustration than substance, perhaps it’s worth stepping back and reevaluating the points in good faith, as I’ve done with each of your concerns.

[Grimlock]

He doesn't need to meet Freeza or know how strong he is precisely to have a general idea of his power-

Are you able to tell me Grimlock my height and weight? You don't have to be precise, just give me a general idea of my attributes.

As for the second point, I just missed the post among other notifications but I don't see what point you're trying to make. Kuririn makes no estimate of Shin's battle power on any Ki sensing. He's directly estimating it based on appearance which, if anything, further showcases how he can't sense his strength because Shin is at the very least miles ahead of Kuririn in power for him to make those comments. It's just another case of Toriyama’s favourite trope of the small guy being underestimated based on his height.

The point is that If they can't sense his "godly" Ki, then there is no reason to assume they would be able to tell how strong he is during a battle... The way Vegeta said means they can sense his Ki, just not at what length it can go. But all right.

It seems we’re running in circles here, but let me clarify. The manga adaptation of the OVA explicitly depicts Tarble mentioning Freeza’s defeat while showing an image of his first form. This contextualizes the comparison as referring to that specific form of Freeza, not his full power or subsequent transformations. If you need further validation, the adaptation serves as an official extension of the narrative.

Alright, valid point. Though Goku knows full well Freeza's power level and was still sad to hear that Abo and Cado are at his level, so in Goku's perspective, he could have been thinking about Freeza's base form instead.

Although, even if that's the case, Goku still defeated someone who is stronger than Freeza with one blow if we apply the multiplication, 530,000 x 530,000 = 280,900,000,000. Abocado is even stronger than Goku as a Super Saiyan, if you consider that his power level was 150,000,000, as per the guidebooks. But anyway, like I said, fair enough.

As for Tarble’s intel, the notion that he shouldn’t ‘know’ about Freeza due to being sent away as a child doesn’t disqualify the comparison. Freeza’s dominance over the Saiyan race is well-established, and even exiled Saiyans like Tarble could easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors. Tarble’s statement is consistent with Freeza’s widespread notoriety.

It does, as it would be the same as Goku from any point between Pilaf saga and Saiyans saga making that comparison. If Goku didn't easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors, then so couldn't Tarble. As he is seemingly not a fighter, any Freeza soldier who could have had appeared on his planet would have killed him. So we know Abo and Cado were the first ones to have showed up there.

Regarding your general tone in this discussion, it seems the issue isn’t the validity of the arguments but dissatisfaction with their implications. It’s one thing to challenge interpretations with evidence and logic, but another to dismiss the conversation’s sensibility altogether. If you’re feeling that this debate is more about frustration than substance, perhaps it’s worth stepping back and reevaluating the points in good faith, as I’ve done with each of your concerns.

It's just very funny to me that you would say "Tarble was referring to Freeza's first form", which, as I said, is a valid argument, one rooted in common sense given all the contexts we have, but when it comes to the Beerus/Goku/Freeza shit, no common sense is to be found. You ignore this whole scene to feed some strange idea that Goku, after sixteen years, is still weaker than Freeza. If we were to take what Beerus said as meaning "this Goku standing right in front of me, with this much power level, can't defeat Freeza", then what is the point of that scene? Why does Beerus ask why Goku's hair changed? Why does Whis have to explain the Super Saiyan form? Why don't or can't you connect that scene to his statement later? Why does it make more sense to you for Beerus to show up out of nowhere and randomly say "Goku, you are weaker than Freeza" than "Goku, I saw you weren't able to defeat Freeza as you are now at that time, but I also saw that you can transform and that's how you were able to defeat him"?

This conversation is as frustrating as it is substantial (and a bit fun), don't you worry about that.

[Yuji]

He doesn't need to meet Freeza or know how strong he is precisely to have a general idea of his power-

Are you able to tell me Grimlock my height and weight? You don't have to be precise, just give me a general idea of my attributes.

As for the second point, I just missed the post among other notifications but I don't see what point you're trying to make. Kuririn makes no estimate of Shin's battle power on any Ki sensing. He's directly estimating it based on appearance which, if anything, further showcases how he can't sense his strength because Shin is at the very least miles ahead of Kuririn in power for him to make those comments. It's just another case of Toriyama’s favourite trope of the small guy being underestimated based on his height.

The point is that If they can't sense his "godly" Ki, then there is no reason to assume they would be able to tell how strong he is during a battle... The way Vegeta said means they can sense his Ki, just not at what length it can go. But all right.

It seems we’re running in circles here, but let me clarify. The manga adaptation of the OVA explicitly depicts Tarble mentioning Freeza’s defeat while showing an image of his first form. This contextualizes the comparison as referring to that specific form of Freeza, not his full power or subsequent transformations. If you need further validation, the adaptation serves as an official extension of the narrative.

Alright, valid point. Though Goku knows full well Freeza's power level and was still sad to hear that Abo and Cado are at his level, so in Goku's perspective, he could have been thinking about Freeza's base form instead.

Although, even if that's the case, Goku still defeated someone who is stronger than Freeza with one blow if we apply the multiplication, 530,000 x 530,000 = 280,900,000,000. Abocado is even stronger than Goku as a Super Saiyan, if you consider that his power level was 150,000,000, as per the guidebooks. But anyway, like I said, fair enough.

As for Tarble’s intel, the notion that he shouldn’t ‘know’ about Freeza due to being sent away as a child doesn’t disqualify the comparison. Freeza’s dominance over the Saiyan race is well-established, and even exiled Saiyans like Tarble could easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors. Tarble’s statement is consistent with Freeza’s widespread notoriety.

It does, as it would be the same as Goku from any point between Pilaf saga and Saiyans saga making that comparison. If Goku didn't easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors, then so couldn't Tarble. As he is seemingly not a fighter, any Freeza soldier who could have had appeared on his planet would have killed him. So we know Abo and Cado were the first ones to have showed up there.

Regarding your general tone in this discussion, it seems the issue isn’t the validity of the arguments but dissatisfaction with their implications. It’s one thing to challenge interpretations with evidence and logic, but another to dismiss the conversation’s sensibility altogether. If you’re feeling that this debate is more about frustration than substance, perhaps it’s worth stepping back and reevaluating the points in good faith, as I’ve done with each of your concerns.

It's just very funny to me that you would say "Tarble was referring to Freeza's first form", which, as I said, is a valid argument, one rooted in common sense given all the contexts we have, but when it comes to the Beerus/Goku/Freeza shit, no common sense is to be found. You ignore this whole scene to feed some strange idea that Goku, after sixteen years, is still weaker than Freeza. If we were to take what Beerus said as meaning "this Goku standing right in front of me, with this much power level, can't defeat Freeza", then what is the point of that scene? Why does Beerus ask why Goku's hair changed? Why does Whis have to explain the Super Saiyan form? Why don't or can't you connect that scene to his statement later? Why does it make more sense to you for Beerus to show up out of nowhere and randomly say "Goku, you are weaker than Freeza" than "Goku, I saw you weren't able to defeat Freeza as you are now at that time, but I also saw that you can transform and that's how you were able to defeat him"?

This conversation is as frustrating as it is substantial (and a bit fun), don't you worry about that.

I don't know your height and weight, but you're not a famous celebrity. If everyone says Jon Jones is 193 cm and 108kg, I don't need to meet him to know that's true. Freeza was boasting about his battle power to Nail, there's no reason to think it wasn't widespread knowledge in the empire.

[Hugo Boss]

As for Tarble’s intel, the notion that he shouldn’t ‘know’ about Freeza due to being sent away as a child doesn’t disqualify the comparison. Freeza’s dominance over the Saiyan race is well-established, and even exiled Saiyans like Tarble could easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors. Tarble’s statement is consistent with Freeza’s widespread notoriety.

It does, as it would be the same as Goku from any point between Pilaf saga and Saiyans saga making that comparison. If Goku didn't easily learn about him through secondhand accounts or scattered rumors, then so couldn't Tarble. As he is seemingly not a fighter, any Freeza soldier who could have had appeared on his planet would have killed him. So we know Abo and Cado were the first ones to have showed up there.

I don't think the comparison to Goku in early arcs is equivalent. Goku lost his Saiyan culture, memory, and access to their technology. Tarble, on the other hand, retained his memories, garb, spaceship, and scouter (all tools that would have kept him more connected to Saiyan affairs). A scouter alone could have provided him intel about Freeza, either directly or through intercepted communications. It’s not implausible that Tarble learned about Freeza’s battle power by his allies, making his statement consistent with the broader lore.

Regarding your general tone in this discussion, it seems the issue isn’t the validity of the arguments but dissatisfaction with their implications. It’s one thing to challenge interpretations with evidence and logic, but another to dismiss the conversation’s sensibility altogether. If you’re feeling that this debate is more about frustration than substance, perhaps it’s worth stepping back and reevaluating the points in good faith, as I’ve done with each of your concerns.

It's just very funny to me that you would say "Tarble was referring to Freeza's first form", which, as I said, is a valid argument, one rooted in common sense given all the contexts we have, but when it comes to the Beerus/Goku/Freeza shit, no common sense is to be found. You ignore this whole scene to feed some strange idea that Goku, after sixteen years, is still weaker than Freeza. If we were to take what Beerus said as meaning "this Goku standing right in front of me, with this much power level, can't defeat Freeza", then what is the point of that scene? Why does Beerus ask why Goku's hair changed? Why does Whis have to explain the Super Saiyan form? Why don't or can't you connect that scene to his statement later? Why does it make more sense to you for Beerus to show up out of nowhere and randomly say "Goku, you are weaker than Freeza" than "Goku, I saw you weren't able to defeat Freeza as you are now at that time, but I also saw that you can transform and that's how you were able to defeat him"?

This conversation is as frustrating as it is substantial (and a bit fun), don't you worry about that.

The scene where Beerus watches Goku transform and fight Freeza is interesting because in retrospect it makes Beerus look like well informed in front of North Kaio, but doesn’t contradict the idea that base Goku remained weaker than Freeza until his godly training. It would deliver a different joke using Beerus' "outdated data" if North Kaio or Goku presented him updated intel. Instead, Beerus randomly thinks Goku is weaker than Freeza but he ended up accurately noting Goku’s base form was still insufficient by the present time. This actually fits Dragon Ball’s established dynamics: pre-Whis, Goku relied heavily on transformations to bridge gaps in power, as shown repeatedly after his fight against Freeza. The sixteen-year gap without notable training to boost base forms reinforces this point, as Goku’s base power likely didn’t grow significantly without transformations driving his battles. This was even pointed out by Whis in Dragon Ball Super (that they relied too much on transformations).

[Grimlock]

This actually fits Dragon Ball’s established dynamics: pre-Whis, Goku relied heavily on transformations to bridge gaps in power, as shown repeatedly after his fight against Freeza. The sixteen-year gap without notable training to boost base forms reinforces this point, as Goku’s base power likely didn’t grow significantly without transformations driving his battles. This was even pointed out by Whis in Dragon Ball Super (that they relied too much on transformations).

The overreliance in transformations is crystal clear: to sell merchandising. This is not even something that can be explained from an in-universe pesperctive. Nothing evidences this more than the old "Saiyan beyond God---Super Saiyan God" issue. There'll always appear opponents that will force the characters to transform, otherwise Dragon Ball loses one of its major appeals. It hardly means that the base forms don't get stronger.

That being said, would I be correct in assuming that Goku defeating Freeza and Cell in Dragon Ball GT is the bane of all power-scalers? Or Gohan defeating Freeza in Movie 12 with a single blow? What do you think of those scenes?

[Hugo Boss]

That being said, would I be correct in assuming that Goku defeating Freeza and Cell in Dragon Ball GT is the bane of all power-scalers? Or Gohan defeating Freeza in Movie 12 with a single blow? What do you think of those scenes?

I think anime-exclusive content often downplay the power gap between transformations and regular forms for the sake of narrative simplicity or pacing.

For instance, you have the Rild statement in Dragon Ball GT about Goku not using “half” of his power until transforming into a Super Saiyan and Rild managing to fight SS Goku on nearly equal footing after a modest power-up, which implies that the boost [from base to Super Saiyan] was less dramatic than typically implied in other parts of the franchise, where Goku’s transformations are portrayed as “tens of times” stronger than his base form.

If Rild’s statement were accurate, base power would be proportionally closer to Super Saiyan, a stark difference from how its multiplier usually functions (50-fold).

[Grimlock]

I think anime-exclusive content often downplay the power gap between transformations and regular forms for the sake of narrative simplicity or pacing.

For instance, you have the Rild statement in Dragon Ball GT about Goku not using “half” of his power until transforming into a Super Saiyan and Rild managing to fight SS Goku on nearly equal footing after a modest power-up, which implies that the boost [from base to Super Saiyan] was less dramatic than typically implied in other parts of the franchise, where Goku’s transformations are portrayed as “tens of times” stronger than his base form.

If Rild’s statement were accurate, base power would be proportionally closer to Super Saiyan, a stark difference from how its multiplier usually functions (50-fold).

So you don't agree that Goku and Gohan can defeat them in their base forms by the time the villains appeared? And that in both occasions they should've needed Super Saiyan, right?

[Hugo Boss]

I think anime-exclusive content often downplay the power gap between transformations and regular forms for the sake of narrative simplicity or pacing.

For instance, you have the Rild statement in Dragon Ball GT about Goku not using “half” of his power until transforming into a Super Saiyan and Rild managing to fight SS Goku on nearly equal footing after a modest power-up, which implies that the boost [from base to Super Saiyan] was less dramatic than typically implied in other parts of the franchise, where Goku’s transformations are portrayed as “tens of times” stronger than his base form.

If Rild’s statement were accurate, base power would be proportionally closer to Super Saiyan, a stark difference from how its multiplier usually functions (50-fold).

So you don't agree that Goku and Gohan can defeat them in their base forms by the time the villains appeared? And that in both occasions they should've needed Super Saiyan, right?

I don’t necessarily disagree with that conclusion, but it depends on context. If we take anime and movies portrayal, Goku and Gohan’s base forms likely became strong enough to handle many foes that previously required Super Saiyan. However, this is inconsistent with how multipliers like Super Saiyan’s 50x boost are presented in the manga continuity, where transformations are essential to handle significant power gaps. So, while possible in works that Toei writers have large influence, it diverges from the broader vision Toriyama had for the franchise.

[Grimlock]

If we take anime and movies portrayal, Goku and Gohan’s base forms likely became strong enough to handle many foes that previously required Super Saiyan.

This is true if you place all movies in the same dimension, as on top of facing the series villains, they faced the other movie villains too. But if you are one of those people who believe each movie happens in a different place (obligatory remider that no official source supports this), then Movie 12 Gohan has the same power level as series Gohan. Same for Goku, as Dragon Ball GT may or may not take place in the movie dimension as well.

So I guess before going further, we would need to know first which of those two mindsets you follow.

[Hugo Boss]

I lean toward the perspective that movies and anime exclusive content until early 2000 exist in alternate continuities separate from the manga and anime content in which Toriyama was implied to have more involvement, given the inherent contradictions.

[Yuji]

Goku does a decent job against Tamagami 3 in base and Super Saiyan but ultimately needs SS2 to get the job done, and a full powered Kamehameha was even deflected.

I think SPC-tier Dabra is pretty much confirmed at this point, even if you were still skeptical after Trunks' battle.

[Grimlock]

I lean toward the perspective that movies and anime exclusive content until early 2000 exist in alternate continuities separate from the manga and anime content in which Toriyama was implied to have more involvement, given the inherent contradictions.

I'm asking if you think the movies are all in the same continuity or if each movie occurs separated from each other, as in the Goku who faces Garlic Junior is different from the Goku that faces Wheelo, who is different from the Goku that faces Turles and etc.

[MisteryOne]

Mini Goku completely demolished Tamagami 3 in SS2, and remember he is weaker as a Mini. It's a good measurement stick considering it was literally said not even Dabura could beat Tamagami 3

The Minotaur bit was before Goku knew how strong Glorio was tho. He isn't proven wrong directly. He was just basing his impressions on the previous episode that he saw Glorio fight, yet that was already enough to consider him stronger than Shin. By pure logic, the minotaur must be stronger than mini Shin, because Goku's view of Glorio was weaker than him. Unless we are just going the route of ignoring statements made by the characters themselves. But they are clearly in the story for a reason, the authors are talking trough them. You can't get more obvious than this unless you want a literal narrator to pop up and say who is stronger. It's an estimation yes, but it isn't contradicted. It never comes up episodes later. So it's clear the character was supposed to be right. There is no point on it existing storyline-wise if that wasn't the case.

As you say yourself, we can't look at things in isolation. This is why we apply consistency to one scene of Goku saying Glorio is stronger than Shin, and a later one where he thinks he can take him out with an arm. I have no idea where the solider or Panzy comparison comes from given there is no statement whatsover in neither of those scenes.

Yes, if the show is very clearly implying the minotaur is stronger than Shin and Shin was stronger than Frieza, that would mean even that "random animal" is (it isn't the case because we don't know how much weaker Shin got, but I can't believe this fandom is still arguing about the logic of these things in 2024. Dragonball has never cared about how logically powerful the enemies or rivals have been in relation to previous ones). I'm not entirely sure what the point is there. We have no idea how strong the guardians of the DBs are compared to Frieza or how your random average Majin compares to the random average citizen of other universes. It wouldn't contradict anything.

Dragon Ball cares about how strong the characters are. One of the main tropes is grabbing older foes as measuring sticks.

We only know Shin's power because he uses Freeza, which was a big deal hundreds of chapters ago.
Not even the humans reached Freeza level and they were always close behind Goku. There's a clear cut-off.

We can't look at things in isolation, because sometimes there's apparent contradictions. Sometimes by mistake, sometimes for mistiming and sometimes for storytelling reasons.

- For example, in the Broly movie. Goku fights an enraged Broly in base, while Vegeta needed SSG. Obviously Goku isn't as strong in base, it's mistiming.
- A more egregious error, the Boo Arc. Why was Shin constantly shitting his pants and shocked the Saiyans weren't ganging up on Pui-Pui when he literally held SSJ2 Gohan back. Likewise for Dabra.
- The Panzy example is just another of taking everything at face value. Her throwing toilet paper is clearly for comedic value but if we take everything serious, then she has twice been faster than Base Goku.

Like I wrote for this situation in concrete:

Isn't the logical reasoning that, like Shin clearly stated, neither character got serious until mid fight? Goku's line "you're better than I thought" is just common fluff and since Goku needed to go SSJ at the end his initial convictions are confirmed.

Also, what's the point of making Goku this incompetent? He completely misjudged Glorio then. If a holding back Glorio is even better than his first evaluation and then he even needs to go SSJ!

It's not likely that every random creature is Freeza level; or worst since Goku went SSJ for random soldiers.
Base Saiyans being stronger than Freeza is contradictory from the get-go taking into account the thematic of the whole Cell arc.
Fights having a warming up phase is another Dragon Ball trope, it's not the end all.

There's also situation B.
In which Goku was referring to Mini-Shin and not "Adult Shin". This would be dreadful writing since we have no idea about Mini Shin, therefore no point of reference making that line useless.

We can also be pedantic and say Goku is talking off his ass. He can't feel Shin's Ki and never saw him fight.

Dragonball has never cared about how random citizens are compared to others. Namekians have literal flight as a natural ability. Saiyans also have Ki and are massively stronger than anything most Earthling could hope to be in hundred of years, even when they are weaklings on their race themselves like Raditz who was literal Saibaman level and didn't even train his tail. Again, there would be no contradiction in Demon Realm animals being stronger than Frieza.

I have literally already mentioned how you are contradicting yourself by not considering thing together rather than in isolation. I have no idea what you are trying to prove on your examples, not why you keep using the Pantzy scene which is literal comedy. You are kind of proving you don't have solid comparisons to make. I have also already pointed out your situation B, so again I don't know what you are trying to say. All the Minis should have still seen their power reduced equally. That means Adult Base Goku in Daima is stronger than Frieza by pure logic and again, not considering isolated moments but combining statements.

Goku being incompetent is irrelevant. The entire fight with Glorio is already forced conflict since thw later should know what Super Saiyan is and that Goku literally killed Buu. He saw all of that in Gomah's castle, so this is a very moot point. The scene would not work if Goku didn't misjudge Glorio against the Minotaur. So you are asking yourself why to make him misjudge, when the answer is crystal clear: because otherwise there would be no conflict and no surprise when Glorio proves to be stronger thanks to his magic. You are also arguing Goku somehow misjudged Glorio to be so much weaker, yet he still *also* misjudged he was stronger than Shin? Make up your mind there. Yes, he needed to transform into SS. Because he never saw Glorio's magic or had to deal with it before. Again, everything flows well there. No contradiction.

Shin's line literally only suggest Goku was not fighting seriously. Which is extremely obvious given he was fighting with one arm. There is no conflict in i formation there like you keep suggesting. They in fact add up. Shin literally says "Please fight seriously, I want to see his power". Goku was not fighting seriously until then. Where is the issue?

You are arguing yourself warming up is usual in Dragonball and yet try to argue Goku trying to fight Glorio with one arm means he misjudged him completely in relation to Shin. I keep getting more and more confused by how you are contradicting your own claims. Why then could Goku not just be fighting unserious against Glorio until Shin asks otherwise, but still not be just warm up? Why does it not mean Goku was just playing around with a Glorio he thought was stronger than Shin? Everything in this seems to came down with your inability to accept the minotaur being stronger than Frieza or Shin, but that's a whole different thing to the actual statements. Daima is not supposed to be this complex thing. It's still aimed at children. And it doesn't have the bad schedule of Super where you can argue different writers see different power levels in the character. Remember this was supposed to be a web series that you could watch in a batch, not weekly. There is no reason to assume inconssitencies or, as you claim yourself, judge things in isolation.

Goku clearly can sense Shin's ki in Daima. It's literally a plot point for him to use the Transmission to get to him. This is the "we can't trust Piccolo or Krillin power scaling" in Super anime argument all over again.

Even Dragonball has reasons to make characters strength statements. And if they are not proved to be wrong and used by the narrative, it's clear the authors made them say these statements for a reason. You can get all pedantic you want, but I have no idea why you even want to discuss the strength in Daima if you are going to completley ignore actual strength statements if they don't fit your narrative before starting the series.

[Saiyan007]

Base Goku is probably a lot more powerful than we all thought

He could fight with Tamagami in base for some time even making him fall to his knees and Tamagami even complimenting his strength by saying " Not bad"

Base Goku also could find the dragonball Tamagami threw away at super speed when Supreme kai said he couldn't keep up with the speed tamagami was moving the cups at and neither could Glorio

Goku might be near Perfect Cell levels in his base form alone

[LightBing]

Clean cut this episode.

Tamagami 3 is SSJ2 level. Makes sense Dabra couldn't defeat him, he's just slightly better than Perfect Cell because of magic. Plus without Babidi's boost, he was likely weaker when he fought the Tamagamis

Snip.

I'm not arrogant to ignore battle statements. The characters said and did what they did.

For certain in BoG, which is after Daima, Base Saiyans are weaker than Freeza.

Of course Toriyama might have changed his mind regarding Base Saiyans, like he did just this episode about Boo's origin.
In the same interview he also talks how SSJ2 and 3 are just powered up versions and how Goku will strengthen Base and SSJ instead of getting new forms.

Perhaps he's applying that concept in Daima already and ignoring BoG.

Do we follow the latest statement in the timeline or in the real World? Or do we ignore everything and just use the material at hand?

Regardless, I still think this is just poor presentation from the anime. For the various reasons I already commented before.
But I'm not saying anyone is wrong, just offering my reasoning. I'm not claiming it is the absolute truth.