Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 19 - Official Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

I wonder if there's going to be a Lord Beerus cameo in the final episode.

I mean, Toriyama did include Gowasu and all the other Kaioshin from the Tournament of Power saga in a flashback, establishing an unbreakable connection between Daima and Super.

[nineko]

So this series will almost have to end with a mind-wipe of some sort if it is to remain canon to DBS, right?

Memory wiping Super Saiyan 4 would actually work, though it's implied that Vegeta obtained Super Saiyan 3 off-screen some time pre-Daima, how would you memory wipe that?

(wondering how he could obtain Super Saiyan 3 while training on Earth without anyone noticing his aura is yet another can of worms, then again Trunks couldn't recognise Gohan's aura in Super's new chapter just yesterday, so I guess everyone just forgot how to do that)

[BernardoCairo]

Let me remind you that the Buu saga revealed there was this uber super duper god, Kaioshin, who could single-handedly crush Freeza. Wow, great continuity, right?

This has nothing to do with continuity.

I mean, they also show a bunch of "non-canon" characters in Super's latest chapter, so...

Yep, but was more of a reference than anything. Toyotaro was just having fun with the designs. But now, with Daima, we’re dealing with some really big plot elements.

I wonder if there's going to be a Lord Beerus cameo in the final episode.

Maybe Whis? Beerus is sleeping.

[Zephyr]

They still mentioned "Universe 7", and showed us Gowasu and the other Kaioshin from the Tournament of Power when they absolutely did not have to. Toriyama, Iyoku, Kakihara, and the rest do not care about plotholes.

I mean, they also show a bunch of "non-canon" characters in Super's latest chapter, so...
Not saying this means or doesn't mean Daima is connected to Super, but if "Character showed up here" is an indication of continuity link, then GT definitely happened in Super's timeline.

Pretty sure it was only Olivu, who isn't a GT character, he's from the Afterlife Tournament filler arc. The Dai Kaio, also from that arc, was mentioned in the original manga anyway.

Is there an actual GT character you're referring to?

EDIT:
Either way. The thought is supposed to be that Daima is wiping Super clean and moving to a new continuity, right? Well it's difficult to imagine that being the intent, when it mentions a geographical designation from Super in its very first episode, and then shows characters from it in its 10th episode.

For the analogy to work, it'd be like if M2 or Planet Lood were mentioned in episode 1 of Super, and then they literally showed, I don't know, Rilld and Mu in episode 10 of Super, and then people were still saying that Super was in a different continuity from GT. I guarantee you that latter hypothetical conversation would not be happening (at least not with the same prevalence), were those former references made. Super isn't without its GT references, but that comes across more like a cameo with a reworking of one of its designs, rather than something like mentioning places and showing characters from it.

Like, I could still be totally wrong as far as their intentions. But as far as I can tell, what Daima is doing with Super isn't really comparable to what Super did with GT.

[goku the krump dancer]

While I’m still not really a fan of FreeBee4 it DOES esthetically look better on an adult body..

I honestly think Dragon Ball and child main heroes unless it’s for a legit one off story are a THING OF THE PAST, Toriyama caught lighting in a bottle with the magic he created with the first quarter of the the original story showing Goku’s adventures as a kid but he aged him up for reason. Fans world wide when they think of Goku they think of him as an adult whooping ass not as kid being confused on what girls and marriage are despite those being fun aspects of his character.

This was the first enjoyable episode in WEEKS, even though I spoiled myself a bit and saw that Goku had his Free 4orm as an adult and by proxy Glorio’s wish to return them back to normal, it was still a fun watch. Initially I thought Goku was recreating the Boi arc scene just to try to give Piccolo an opening while Gomah was distracted, but it was legit for fan service (and padding) so it fell a bit flat for me.

I like that Gomah isn’t really strong but the eye keeps healing him instinctively.

The Vegeta gag is the best thing in this mini series so far. He loves Bath Time with his lady lol.

If the fusion bug comes into play I REALLY hope they don’t show horn Gogeta in last minute, it’s not necessary. Let someone else use them, Goku and Vegeta already have two powerful fusion we don’t need a third.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

I honestly think Dragon Ball and child main heroes unless it’s for a legit one off story are a THING OF THE PAST.

I think it can work if it's actually set in the past, but not after Z.

[Cybersai]

Goku and the others talking about running out of stamina when Dende is standing right there reminds me of the first GT episode when Dende tells Popo, "Get me the first aid kit!"

[fadeddreams5]

So why doesn't Goku just use IT to hit him in the back of the head while Piccolo distracts him instead? Why have they forgotten about this technique?

Or... you know... Nahare, who can teleport at will? lol.

I mean, Toriyama did include Gowasu and all the other Kaioshin from the Tournament of Power saga in a flashback, establishing an unbreakable connection between Daima and Super.

Just because those character designs were used in a flashback doesn't make them the same exact characters or establish any unbreakable connections. Similarly, Olibu just appeared in the manga as a statue, but that doesn't make the Other World Tournament arc canon to Super. Super's Hell clearly contradicts the one from DBZ.

[Galan007]

Memory wiping Super Saiyan 4 would actually work, though it's implied that Vegeta obtained Super Saiyan 3 off-screen some time pre-Daima, how would you memory wipe that?

(wondering how he could obtain Super Saiyan 3 while training on Earth without anyone noticing his aura is yet another can of worms, then again Trunks couldn't recognise Gohan's aura in Super's new chapter just yesterday, so I guess everyone just forgot how to do that)

I mean, at least Vegeta's lack of SS3 during DBS *could* be retroactively explained-away via a short blurb during a training scene with Goku. Something like: "Super Saiyan 3 is an absolute waste, Kakarot!! It depletes you in minutes!! Why do you think I decided never to use it again after we left the Demon Realm!? It is beneath a true Elite like myself!!" Plot-hole [albeit sloppily] fixed.

However, Goku still having access to SS4 in DBS presents a much bigger problem. There are multiple instances in both the anime and manga where Goku has intentionally shown-off ALL of his transformations sequentially(from base to blue), and SS4 has obviously never even been alluded to. Up to this point it has always been: SS3 = the highest transformation/power that Goku can achieve without accessing divine ki(ie. SSG and above.) So the existence of SS4 would indeed throw a HUGE wrench in the gears if it remained accessible to Goku by the DBS-era. That's why I hope it's just a "Daima-Exclusive", and either Neva or a Dragon mind-wipes the lot after the series has concluded.

...Or DBS is canon to Daima, but Daima isn't canon to DBS(like the relationship between DBZ and GT.) /shrug

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Can we take a minute to appreciate that after 30 years of the form's introduction, we finally got to see Vegeta fight as a Ssj3 ? Not the heroes one, not the mini one, but the actual Vegeta. Thank you Toriyama sensei. I have plenty of issues with Daima that I'll get into once it concludes, but this is something I've waited so long to see.

[UpFromTheSkies]

The new form either has some limitation on it, or Toriyama has just deleted Dragon Ball Super, which I think is highly unlikely. I'm guessing Goku can only use this form in the demon realm for now, but will learn to use it outside the demon realm at some point in the future of Dragon Ball Super.

[UpFromTheSkies]

Can we take a minute to appreciate that after 30 years of the form's introduction, we finally got to see Vegeta fight as a Ssj3 ? Not the heroes one, not the mini one, but the actual Vegeta. Thank you Toriyama sensei. I have plenty of issues with Daima that I'll get into once it concludes, but this is something I've waited so long to see.

Yeah , I just wish it looked like normal SS3, not with his hair standing straight up.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Yeah , I just wish it looked like normal SS3, not with his hair standing straight up.

It looked similar when he was flying around. It seems to just stand up when he's staying still.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Can we take a minute to appreciate that after 30 years of the form's introduction, we finally got to see Vegeta fight as a Ssj3 ? Not the heroes one, not the mini one, but the actual Vegeta. Thank you Toriyama sensei. I have plenty of issues with Daima that I'll get into once it concludes, but this is something I've waited so long to see.

Yeah , I just wish it looked like normal SS3, not with his hair standing straight up.

Man tbh I don't see the problem with vegeta having his own version of the ssj3 hair. Each character has different hairstyles in ssj1 and ssj2, so it makes sense that this is the case with ssj3 as well. It's good to make all of them unique imo

[fadeddreams5]

The new form either has some limitation on it, or Toriyama has just deleted Dragon Ball Super, which I think is highly unlikely. I'm guessing Goku can only use this form in the demon realm for now, but will learn to use it outside the demon realm at some point in the future of Dragon Ball Super.

My theory is, nothing will be stated and one day, out of the blue, he will transform into it in a future DBS anime episode. And again, nothing will be stated, besides, "I haven't used this one in a while." The power scaling will also not make sense, and it will be depicted as stronger than SSJB or even UI.

[FiReFTW]

Memory wiping Super Saiyan 4 would actually work, though it's implied that Vegeta obtained Super Saiyan 3 off-screen some time pre-Daima, how would you memory wipe that?

(wondering how he could obtain Super Saiyan 3 while training on Earth without anyone noticing his aura is yet another can of worms, then again Trunks couldn't recognise Gohan's aura in Super's new chapter just yesterday, so I guess everyone just forgot how to do that)

I mean, at least Vegeta's lack of SS3 during DBS *could* be retroactively explained-away via a short blurb during a training scene with Goku. Something like: "Super Saiyan 3 is an absolute waste, Kakarot!! It depletes you in minutes!! Why do you think I decided never to use it again after we left the Demon Realm!? It is beneath a true Elite like myself!!" Plot-hole [albeit sloppily] fixed.

However, Goku still having access to SS4 in DBS presents a much bigger problem. There are multiple instances in both the anime and manga where Goku has intentionally shown-off ALL of his transformations sequentially(from base to blue), and SS4 has obviously never even been alluded to. Up to this point it has always been: SS3 = the highest transformation/power that Goku can achieve without accessing divine ki(ie. SSG and above.) So the existence of SS4 would indeed throw a HUGE wrench in the gears if it remained accessible to Goku by the DBS-era. That's why I hope it's just a "Daima-Exclusive", and either Neva or a Dragon mind-wipes the lot after the series has concluded.

...Or DBS is canon to Daima, but Daima isn't canon to DBS(like the relationship between DBZ and GT.) /shrug

Vegeta's lack of using SSJ3 in Super is no big deal at all.

1. Because it uses a ton of energy and is wasteful
2. Because pretty fast into the series Vegeta already gets SSJ God and then Blue etc... so theres not much need to use SSJ3

But SSJ4 for Goku presents a HUGE list of issues and problems as you mention, it makes zero sense and doesn't go together at all, Daima and Super just can't exist in the same universe, nothing makes sense anymore.

As much as I think it was badass in Daima, it messes up the whole thing.... unless they plan to explain a reason why Goku can't use it anymore in the next (last) episode.

[BernardoCairo]

Yeah , I just wish it looked like normal SS3, not with his hair standing straight up.

I think the hair standing straight up is a great style for him. It's different and a nice callback to the original concept of Super Saiyajin 3. He looks really intense in this form.

[AliTheZombie13]

Is there an actual GT character you're referring to?

As far as I recall, Redjic shows up as a cameo in the Super manga.
The Super anime also makes a lot more cameos of characters and animals introduced in GT.
Off the top of my mind, two Imeggan children show up in the ToP arc.

All of this is to say, "OK, Gowasu makes a cameo... But so did a lot of other 'non-canon' things."
A lot of the participants from the Afterlife Tournament arc made a cameo in the Super chapter, not only Olibu.

But I see your point about Universe 7 at least.

[Jord]

I don't think so? Black Star arc linked directly to Baby arc as he was created in space, then Baby's defeat led directly to Super 17 arc because it's Dr. Myuu who makes him in the first place. Then that arc already hints at Shadow Dragons with the Dragon Balls breaking. I wouldn't call it disjointed.

It’s disjointed in themes and tone, that’s what I meant. The fact that we even have a Super Android 17 "arc" proves my point. He shows up for no reason, is defeated in the lamest fight ever, and then we move on. I don’t see it as any better than, let's say, Fukkatsu no F in that regard.
But I understand you initial point.

Oh, please let them give Piccolo the finishing blow and not fumble the bag.

By the way, aura farming in this episode. Damn...

The fight against Super 17 was uneventful but the finish, with them including #18 was surprisingly good. It hit some emotional beats and Goku actually need 18 to beat Super 17.

[Thouser]

I don’t feel that the adult designs of SSJ3 Vegeta or the new SSJ4 Goku are vastly superior to the child designs. I feel they’re pretty much the same in quality, so I wasn’t massively excited to see them both transform this episode as if this is the first time we’ve seen them do it.

Besides Vegeta’s reaction to Bulma’s bath comment, which I liked, this episode left me mostly cold. Glorio’s turn to the good side felt pretty perfunctory. Vegeta’s fight with Gomah was not exciting to me. For one, we’ve already seen Vegeta become Super Saiyan 3. I understand they want to make a big deal about him doing it as an adult, and I guess they want to give adult Vegeta a one-on-one fight, but it just didn’t do anything for me watching that dramatic build up again. As for the fight itself, it was forgettable. The action in the previous two episodes had much more interesting direction. The Final Flash scene was solid, and I enjoyed seeing the Final Flash given the “Daima treatment” with the differently colored light squiggles, but it didn’t blow me away (no pun intended) or anything. Vegeta stubbornly insisting on fighting solo is also a thing we’ve seen done a million times, and it just felt obligatory here.

The other “big” moment was Goku doing the “this is a Super Saiyan” speech again, but ending with the new SSJ4. It’s cheap fanservice, but I’ll admit it got a smile from me just because it was so cheesy. I’d have preferred something better than just recycling that scene though.

I enjoyed the Megath episode, and I’d rewatch it over this one.