Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 19 - Official Discussion Thread

[The Iron Fjord]

Pretty weak episode compared to last week's. Animation seemed off, and it felt like a filler with Vegeta vs Gomah. Comedy was great as per usual, with the Vegeta/Bulma bathtime joke being the funniest joke in Daima so far. Even Glorio got a nice moment where he learned the Power of Friendship is much better than whatever vague promises Arinsu would keep. Next week is the final Daima and I want to say despite the the opinions and disagreements anyone in this fanbase may have, it has been an honor watching Daima with all of you.

[fadeddreams5]

This new form is a logical SSJ4, unlike the actual SSJ4, which was more of a humanoid fusion between the great ape and SSJ1 forms. The one in Daima is the next level of SSJ after SSJ3.

As such, I hate that the fur is red. It should have been yellow. Furthermore, I know it would look uglier, but it shouldn't have eyebrows either if it follows SSJ3. Regardless, I think it looks cool, but the inconsistency bothers me.

[ZeroNeonix]

This episode confirmed to me that keeping the cast in ugly, chibi kid designs for 98% of the series was one of the worst creative decisions in the history of the franchise.

It's no surprise that Daima fight scenes are much more enjoyable when the character designs are actually good and the characters look cool.

The "kid-adventure" part of Daima will probably be memory holed, people will only talk about the last 3 episodes, the Tamagami fights and the Buu saga flashbacks when talking about Daima a year from now.

Hard disagree. I think most of the show's best fights are when Goku is a kid, and he's actually using the environment to his advantage. Using those plates as shields, throwing punches in between munching burgers, that was the most entertained I've been by a fight. When they're adults, they're mostly just throwing glowing balls at each other.

But that's opinions for you. People can't agree on anything. lol

[PrinceVegetto]

Jesus Christ, this thread has gone on for a whopping seven pages now and at least 60-70% of the posts have been less about the episode itself, and instead focused entirely on "Gee golly gosh, I sure do wonder how Daima's gonna undo literally everything it's done so far in the one episode it had remaining just so it can line up perfectly as a prequel to Super, which I assume it will entirely due to my own personal wiki headcanon".

Like, seriously... someone PLEASE show me ANY official statement from Toriyama, Iyoku, literally ANYONE from Tōei, etc. that Daima is a prequel to Super? Because I'm preeeetty sure that the ONLY reason everyone keeps assuming that is because everyone keeps assuming it. You know... despite the fact that Daima has contradicted Super about 400 times over by now lmao

And I really gotta wonder... WHY?? WHY is is SO. DAMN. IMPORTANT to you guys that it be the case? I definitely remember a LITTLE bit of that discourse back when Super first started waaaaay back in 2015 where some people were theorizing about how it could still line up as a prequel to GT... but obviously that didn't last long and for the past 9+ years the entire fandom has been perfectly content with the obvious truth that GT and Super are their own entirely separate continuities.

Soooo... WHYYYY is it now all of a sudden so goddamn difficult for the fandom to accept that maybe, JUST MAYBE... the EXACT SAME dynamic exists between Super and Daima? That JUST MAYBE Daima is no more a prequel to Super than Super was to GT? (Not even to mention the fact that when Super first debuted a entire decade ago, it alone had THREE contradicting continuities amongst the movies, TV anime, and manga). Why is it somehow such a bad thing that Daima is to Super as Super is to GT?

Daima and Super are both made with heavy involvement from Toriyama unlike GT so both are therefore considered part of the modern main continuity.

That's why.

I guess Dragon Ball Online must be part of it too.

Dragon Ball Online takes place far in the future with its own unique characters and storylines and to my knowledge while Toriyama provided some character designs for the game, he did not directly write or oversee the story of Dragon Ball Online.

The only canon that nobody can argue is the original manga canon. Everything else is a gray area.

I think a lot of people also mix up canon and continuity.

Canonicity ≠ continuity.

In my opinion, there are 3 main continuities:

• Continuity 1: The original manga (+ optionally including the Super manga)

• Continuity 2: The original anime run: DB, Z, GT

• Continuity 3: The modern anime run: Kai, Super, Daima

** Note that Toriyama has called Super a "casual continuation" while GT a "grand side-story" so that's where the gray area comes in.

[sunsetshimmer]

This new form is a logical SSJ4, unlike the actual SSJ4, which was more of a humanoid fusion between the great ape and SSJ1 forms. The one in Daima is the next level of SSJ after SSJ3.

Original SSJ4 is way more logical if you ask me. What isn't is its name. I think we can all agree on that. And Daima SSJ4 isn't any different in that matter.

The thing is original SSJ4 was clearly different by means you get it. I mean it being called "SSJ4" didn't make sense, but its completely different look did because we clearly saw that you reach it after turning into Oozaru first.

New one makes no sense both in design and name so far + it being CLEARLY shown as next step of SSJ3, at least the way adult Goku himself turns into it. He turns into it like next form of super saiyan without it looking like one at all. Saving point here is the way kid Goku reached it in previous episode, cause he was literally turned into it.

What worked in favor of OG SSJ4 being portrayed as not actual SSJ4 (i mean not the way it should be judging by its name - next step of SSJ3) is ironically Vegeta not being able to go SSJ3 in GT. But he turned into SSJ4. And no, he didn't cheat SSJ4. He cheated Oozaru. So you clearly don't need SSJ3 to get SSJ4.

There is still one episode left. We might get some more explanation. But judging ONLY by these two episodes - new SSJ4, while badass as always, makes much less sense than original one. Not in the way it was portrayed by Goku in this episode at least.

I mean OG SSJ4 has exactly the same problem as SSJ God - having "SSJ" in its name despite it not fitting there at all. The difference is God being officialy explained as NOT being part of SSJ line and proved by existence of the most ridiculous form in franchise - SSJ God SSJ aka SSJ Blue.

[goku the krump dancer]

When they're adults, they're mostly just throwing glowing balls at each other.

Not attacking you or anything but this a common critique on the post 23rd Tournament part of the story that I think gets wildly over blown, yes there’re definitely some fights throughout the series where it seems like they’re playing paint ball or laser tag with their energy blasts but I can also count on one hand where that’s the case, namely Goku’s fight with Super 17 and his fight against Android 13 once he goes Super Saiyan and honestly that’s all I can really think off head where Energy Blasts dominate a fight scene. Every other fight in the series has a healthy mix of hand to hand and energy, even if some may lean a little more one way or the other.

Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy a Jackie Chan style fight scene as much as the next guy but in the context of Dragon Ball it doesn’t make much sense for Guy A who can crush a mountain with his finger to use a trash can lid to block a punch from Guy B who can also sink an entire city with one effortless blow when his arms are infinitely more sturdy.

[Chuquita]

+++Finally they’re adults again!!
+Piccolo and Goku strategizing together while Vegeta “vegetas”.
+SSJ3 & SSJ4(DaimaEdition) both look so much better with them as adults.
+Goku yanking both tops off in such a swift motion was hilarious to me.
+Kuu being able to speed read; him sticking by his mom after she and Glorio part ways. He’s a good son.

+/-3rd eye is such a DQ boss item; I can imagine how irritating it would be to face Gomah as a boss character in a video game.
+/-for better or worse this episode was looking pretty Yamamuro for a while.
+/-Bulma’s just here to fuel her ship. Meh.
+/-Glorio’s betrayal and redemption could’ve been better with more build-up.
+/-Goku not giving a name to not!ssj4, but teasing one.
+/-Wow we actually might make it through without the fusion bugs being used. I’ll be amazed if they were just a red herring after all.

[PrinceVegetto]

Good lord, this man is looking gorgeous. The perspective on the middle right-most shot of Super Saiyan 4 Gokuu fucks up his pecs, though.

In other news: god, the Gomah just has nothing going on. I didn't need to see Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta (Adult) failing to do jackshit against a guy who he has no chemistry with.

Amazing shots from this episode. Truly a peak visually that I don't think was ever sadly reached in Super (except for UI Omen).

The preview for next week looks even more superb:

[SSGpotota]

As for why SSJ4 doesn't show up later in Super... I mean, Vegeta learned Instant Trasmission and decided not to master it because is a technique heavily associated with Goku.
I can see them coming up with some bullshit reason for not using SSJ4 ever again.
Just like I can see them coming up with some bullshit reason for making it necessary again in a future Super arc.

[JulieYBM]

Vegeta being a gooner was definitely not something I expected in my bingo card. This is probably the funniest thing that came out of Daima of all things lmao

I wish they had taken advantage of the 11:40PM timeslot, but alas.

Vegeta being a simp for Bulma makes so much sense lol, a man with that much pride must have T levels through the roof.
Gokus transformation from SSJ3 to 4 was crazy,
Top 5 transformation sequences imo.

Eh, you can be that way no matter what hormone is predominant in your body.

[Zephyr]

Anyone can come up with any number of reasons for how to resolve the plotholes.

But like. Yeah, it's possible that Toriyama was thinking "You know? I actually don't like these stories I've been writing for the past 10 years, I want to start a whole new continuity!"

But for some reason (I'm not sure why), I think that "he didn't know he was making plotholes and/or didn't really care if he was" seems a little more plausible to me. That would be very inline with how he'd been writing those stories for the past 10 years.

[JulieYBM]

Anyone can come up with any number of reasons for how to resolve the plotholes.

But like. Yeah, it's possible that Toriyama was thinking "You know? I actually don't like these stories I've been writing for the past 10 years, I want to start a whole new continuity!"

But for some reason (I'm not sure why), I think that "he didn't know he was making plotholes and/or didn't really care if he was" seems a little more plausible to me. That would be very inline with how he'd been writing those stories for the past 10 years.

I forget which interview it was, but I swear he's mentioned before that he intentionally forgets stuff so he can come up with new ideas, which I think it honestly pretty fair.

[sunsetshimmer]

and/or didn't really care if he was

Did he ever care in the first place? Let's not forget that in original manga run Trunks warned Goku about 19 and 20, not 17 and 18 cause they weren't even in plans at this point. This was fixed later but still, he could've come with some actual explanation rather than simply ignoring that fact. Even something like 17 and 18 actually being called 19 and 20 in his future or whatever.

[Cybersai]

It's weird people were praising Daima during the start for having a more adventure vibe similar to the original Dragon Ball, but now these last few eps are just straight up late-DBZ or GT style all fighting power-up episodes. It seems people are really conflicted what they wanted out of Daima. If anything I would have taken more adventure episodes exploring the world.

[Bardock God of Time]

I do hope we get SSJ4 Vegeta next week but I mean, there's like 20-30 minutes for the episode right?

It's going to be a Goku ep isn't it? At least we got Adult SSJ3 Vegeta

[Cybersai]

I do hope we get SSJ4 Vegeta next week but I mean, there's like 20-30 minutes for the episode right?

It's going to be a Goku ep isn't it? At least we got Adult SSJ3 Vegeta

It'll be all Goku and probably some of Piccolo hitting Gomah on the back of the head, I think Vegeta is done.

Also keep in mind the last 5-10 minutes will probably just be for resolution given this is the final episode, showing the gang say goodbye to the Demon realm characters and whatever happens with Arinsu and Neva by the end. Maybe even some scenes on Earth showing everyone else back to normal.

And...showing Shin and Kibito fuse again if we're lucky.

[JulieYBM]

It's weird people were praising Daima during the start for having a more adventure vibe similar to the original Dragon Ball, but now these last few eps are just straight up late-DBZ or GT style all fighting power-up episodes. It seems people are really conflicted what they wanted out of Daima. If anything I would have taken more adventure episodes exploring the world.

I don't understand what you're saying. These episodes full of fighting were not created as a reaction to earlier episodes of the series. Furthermore, it's possible to like two things at the same time.

Dragon Ball Daima fails at doing either adventure episodes or action episodes particularly well, though, in large because it failed to do the adventure episodes well and failed to invest its audience in the characters' arcs enough to make these big, climatic action episodes hit hard.

[Mr Baggins]

But for some reason (I'm not sure why), I think that "he didn't know he was making plotholes and/or didn't really care if he was" seems a little more plausible to me. That would be very inline with how he'd been writing those stories for the past 10 years.

Rymus feels like such a weirdly deliberate alternate take on Zeno that this could easily be a case of Toriyama just flat-out upending the tea table on continuity, so I dunno. If it's intentional, it would fit Daima and Super having their own distinct style and storytelling.

[JulieYBM]

Rymus probably exists as Toriyama trying to avoid referencing a character—the Zen-Ou—that has yet to be introduced yet, so he's created a predecessor that can serve the same function, without contradicting the later revelations.

That or he just doesn't care. Life's too long and too short to give a shit sometimes.

[ZeroNeonix]

Part of me is hoping we get a video game adaptation, which fixes some of the problems with the writing. This show has a lot of things going for it. Well-written characters, best animation quality in the history of Dragon Ball, and that classic Toriyama humor and charm. The only thing holding it back is the plot. Like, they really should have given it more time, so we weren't essentially getting their first draft. A video game adaptation could flesh out things that need it, allow us to explore the Demon Worlds in more detail, and present the story in a more satisfying way. Like, they could write in a part where we see how dangerous Gomah is before he gets the eye. They could give Piccolo more to do. Write in a reason for Degesu to leave the palace before getting the Third Eye. That kinda thing.