Dragon Ball Daima: Episode 19 - Official Discussion Thread

[Izanagi]

Canon in Dragon Ball doesn't mean anything anymore and it's obvious it never mattered in the first place when Toriyama himself never cared that much about it. Arguing about it is like trying to argue about the timeline in the Fast & Furious movies, it's a lost cause.

"Canon" matters when the creative powers-that-be behind a franchise make a focused effort to firmly establish what counts as part of the main narrative and actually tries to keep new material coherent with it. The Lord of the Rings and One Piece has a clear, well-maintained narrative where everything fits together because their creators actually gives a damn because they're thinking like a storyteller first and foremost. Toriyama doesn't care about structured storytelling; he's been freestyling since day one, making shit up as he goes because it's fun. The other creators just follow his lead, slapping on band-aids to keep the whole thing from collapsing under its own contradictions.

It doesn't matter for Dragon Ball, where the closest reasonable thing to a "main narrative" ended 30 years ago, and the past decade has introduced three separate spin-off series that don't fit with each other. It's a corporate free-for-all product where Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro just throw whatever they want at the wall without caring if it contradicts the past.

Broly for instance was never canon and he was one of the most popular characters among the fans. Same for SSJ4. Same for Z Bardock. Fans never cared about what was "canon" as long as it was cool. Ironically, Super trying to force a "canon" while constantly retconning things just made it all worse.

And if you want to go down the rabbit hole, then DBS, the canon continuation of DBZ fucked the continuity up by retconning many things between the Majin Boo arc and the End of Z chapter, mainly the new forms and the new characters that were never there in End of Z, and the fact that in the last chapter of DBZ, Goku states that he has not met Bulma and co for years (5 or 10 IIRC) when we can see them hanging out together in Super Hero, which makes it very hard to tie up the loose ends now without retconning DBZ’s last chapter.

[Dragmobot12]

HOLY SHOOT! I’m losing my mind over this! Been thinking for months if the Demon Realm actually has insane relics like the Necronomicon or Goetia – you know, the kinda demon books that are straight-up legendary.

Everyone’s hyped about SSJ4, but honestly, I’m here like, “Am I the only one who sees this?! This is wild!” We’re getting more lore on this dark magic stuff, and it’s just pure madness. The book we saw in this episode was cool, sure – a collection of magical items – but you gotta realize, that’s just ONE of the books Arinsu has in her collection.

Can you imagine if they dropped a demon summoning book? Like, legit. That could be our shot at getting Janemba for real this time, in the mix. A Demon Lord summoned from Hell? LET'S GO!

I know some people are arguing on other forums, but come on, the book Arinsu has already gives off those demon vibes. It's full of cursed magical items – maybe even Pandora’s Box, which could lead us straight to Hirudegarn, the infamous Phantom Majin. Or the blue crystal – yeah, that one that stores demon souls. This isn’t just some light summoning stuff, nah. We’re talking a whole-ass cursed demon book with Dark Arts, curses, and crazy power, this thing could literally let you dodge death and get some god-tier power to flex on the gods. It’s like Dragon Balls, but on fucking steroids, pure, unfiltered chaos.

[Xeogran]

I know some people are arguing on other forums, but come on, the book Arinsu has already gives off those demon vibes. It's full of cursed magical items – maybe even Pandora’s Box, which could lead us straight to Hirudegarn, the infamous Phantom Majin.[/url]

Yeah, the demon books are an awesome addition. I'm always up for more demonic villains and this can be the gateway for all kinds of cool stuff. Aesthetically it's also nice to see spell books like this.

[sangofe]

I have a question, because I totally didn't notice it:
ARE THE FUSION BUGS GOING TO PLAY A PART IN THIS OR NOT???

Or were they just yet another "Look at this cool thing the Demon Realm has" that's been dumped on us and doesn't actually matter to the story?

Duu and Kuu will fuse. Mark my words.

[MisteryOne]

Extremely simple episode, but also it was pretty hype and awesome, Bulma was funny. A bit annoyed Goku can just spam 4 now tho, but since we are not getting fusions (or so I hope, even if just for pacing) then I would have wanted Vegeta to get the form too, it isn't like they care about how this contradicts BoG lmao
But like, it was satisfying to see how much stronger they are as adults and see adult SS3 Vegeta, I thought I would need to wait until the return of Super for that. Would be more effective if not for that despite Gomah being in so much apparent pain it just seems like he magically heals or something. But all things considered, pretty great fight just before the finale. I'm gonna miss Daima.

And shirtless red eyed SS3 looked so cool. I wish they did something more similar to that as the next actual evolution instead of trying to redo 4 badly...

[Vegeta th3 4th]

A bit annoyed Goku can just spam 4 now, but since we are not getting fusions then I would have wanted Vegeta to get the form too, it isn't like they care about how this contradicts BoG.

Ssj4 was always Goku's form; he's the character you think of when you think of Ssj4. Although Vegeta and Gogeta eventually got it, it was very tacked on at the end of GT, as neither did anything with it. As far as Daima's concerned, I'm glad they went with Ssj3 for Vegeta, as I and many fans waited decades to see it happen. With that said, I do think we'll get a modern Ssj4 Vegeta, just not in Daima.

[MisteryOne]

As for why SSJ4 doesn't show up later in Super... I mean, Vegeta learned Instant Trasmission and decided not to master it because is a technique heavily associated with Goku.
I can see them coming up with some bullshit reason for not using SSJ4 ever again.
Just like I can see them coming up with some bullshit reason for making it necessary again in a future Super arc.

Yes but whatever the BS reason is, it really needs to be stated at least within the next ep.

This entire "second half" of the Super era is already a disjointed mess bumping back and forth while the companies involved bicker with each other. Say what u want about the first Super anime and its manga adaptations but at least there was some semblance of franchise cohesion and the narrative moving forward in a unified direction, with the same stories covered similary by both one after another (minus skipping of F movie in the manga early on). Things were naturally progressing and easily utilizing new additions from the preceeding arcs

But since the anime ended and Shueisha blocked 2uper anime, we got 2 random Super movies from Toei (only 1 turned into a manga), 2 Super manga arcs from Shueisha not animated, then in the meantine Toei was cooking up another even earlier midquel with Daima that also decided to bring back SSJ4 and likely won't be turned into a manga, as Shueisha was busy doing nothing in the past months or making a prequel to a prequel to SuperHero. All while each of these 'products' bring in even more new lore stuff awkwardly insterted into midquels, movies, mid-midquels etc.

Things really have to start getting explained directly because it IS becoming a mess continuity wise and most fans care about canon/continuity, it's literally the reason why Broly and SSJ4 happened, it's not just mindless consuming of the new flashy forms for most people so if they pull a "no explanation whatsoever" people will rightfully complain. Things can't be happening "just cause" with no effs given, that was the role of DB Heroes anime lol, not the main storytelling 'pillar' that claims to care about the lore, worldbuilding, characters and stories.

I wanted to talk about this, because as much as I love Broly, Super Hero, and specially the Moro arc which I think is still the peak of Super (ignoring early Granolah), I think there is a pretty clear reason why despite Toriyama also obviously not planning the previous Super arcs veforehand, thete waa at leaat some kind of cohesive narrative between them: the cast gets to deal and fight with characters from other universes. This was so obvious it made RoF stand out even more (as ir should, because it's horrible). While I still think Daima is leagues about the Super anime, it seems pretty obvious to me that since the Broly movie they are not caring about what is going to come next at all, just coming up with ways to "bring back X but insert it into the main continuity".

I'm not saying we have to pretend Toriyama ever planned the original manga, but this second half of Super as you describe it seems very directionless, just throwing things at the wall to see how the can do fanservice in a more effective way. I know there is a certain single person we can "blame" for that, but it's just sad that the creation of the Dragon Room has just resulted on this. Miscelaneous adventures while they refuse to propertly build EoZ as Toyotaro was doing in the ToP and Moro.

I guess it was inevitable as early as Frieza came back in the ToP, and at least Daima is tecnically not in U7, but still. The fact Super is probably doing now what not even Heroes dared to say (combine UI with SS4 to get the ultimate SS5 reference) says a lot.

Canon in Dragon Ball doesn't mean anything anymore and it's obvious it never mattered in the first place when Toriyama himself never cared that much about it. Arguing about it is like trying to argue about the timeline in the Fast & Furious movies, it's a lost cause.

"Canon" matters when the creative powers-that-be behind a franchise make a focused effort to firmly establish what counts as part of the main narrative and actually tries to keep new material coherent with it. The Lord of the Rings and One Piece has a clear, well-maintained narrative where everything fits together because their creators actually gives a damn because they're thinking like a storyteller first and foremost. Toriyama doesn't care about structured storytelling; he's been freestyling since day one, making shit up as he goes because it's fun. The other creators just follow his lead, slapping on band-aids to keep the whole thing from collapsing under its own contradictions.

It doesn't matter for Dragon Ball, where the closest reasonable thing to a "main narrative" ended 30 years ago, and the past decade has introduced three separate spin-off series that don't fit with each other. It's a corporate free-for-all product where Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro just throw whatever they want at the wall without caring if it contradicts the past.

Broly for instance was never canon and he was one of the most popular characters among the fans. Same for SSJ4. Same for Z Bardock. Fans never cared about what was "canon" as long as it was cool. Ironically, Super trying to force a "canon" while constantly retconning things just made it all worse.

And if you want to go down the rabbit hole, then DBS, the canon continuation of DBZ fucked the continuity up by retconning many things between the Majin Boo arc and the End of Z chapter, mainly the new forms and the new characters that were never there in End of Z, and the fact that in the last chapter of DBZ, Goku states that he has not met Bulma and co for years (5 or 10 IIRC) when we can see them hanging out together in Super Hero, which makes it very hard to tie up the loose ends now without retconning DBZ’s last chapter.

Toyotaro clearly does care about the contiuinity tho, probably too much in fact. And if canon was truly not a tjing as you suggest, they would not even be inteoducing all those things in the main continuity or whatever you want ro call it to begin with. What Daima is doing is not any different rhan reimagining Broly for Super or Bardock for Minus, the later which was done specifically by Toriyama. If he really didn't care about canon either, why did he do the later to begin with? If anything I would say he couldn't have given less of a shit about other DB media other than his own manga which he didn't remember well.

There is also nothing wrong the new forms or characters not being in EoZ when it's a random tournament where said characters have no reason to show up, and where no one evee transforms. Of all the things Super does retcon, those are not problems.

This implication makes no sense and really just sounds like you are reaching trying to prove the powers at play don't care about a main continuity, but they clearly do. Even the thinga we have gotten from others like Vomi are cameos at best. I don't see how something so simple is a "lost cause" jusg because there are plot holes. That isn't how it works and sounds more like a problem in your end, there are not mentions of things happening in other continuties in rhe Super manga alone. Funny you also mention One Piece, when the canocity of Strong World and Z were debated for a long time (and Red too in some cases) so the canon is not even that obvious in all the media. Hell, we have gotten content Oda wanted to have in the manga but couldn't fit in, aninated, as soon as Loguetown.

Fans not caring about something being canon is expected. Liking something or not because of it being canon is stupid. That doesn't mean there is no canon trough. Those are two vastly different concepts.

A bit annoyed Goku can just spam 4 now, but since we are not getting fusions then I would have wanted Vegeta to get the form too, it isn't like they care about how this contradicts BoG.

Ssj4 was always Goku's form; he's the character you think of when you think of Ssj4. Although Vegeta and Gogeta eventually got it, it was very tacked on at the end of GT, as neither did anything with it. As far as Daima's concerned, I'm glad they went with Ssj3 for Vegeta, as I and many fans waited decades to see it happen. With that said, I do think we'll get a modern Ssj4 Vegeta, just not in Daima.

I get that, but Goku already had an unique form with UI, mechanically a lot more interesting than this version of 4 too. After building up so much unique paths for the Saiyans (UI, UE, Beast, Broly's SS) is extremelly disappointing they will now probably be reduced to looking so similar again, just for the sake of fanservice. Vegeta getting SS3, while cool, is undermined because his first actual fight with it was another instance of "Goku could do this alone and he will, but we are now fighting by turns again just so I get time to shine". A SS3 teamup before SS4 was introduced would have been way more interesting.

More importantly, Goku just spamming 4 without Neva makes things even worse continuity wise bur I guess that ship has sailed now.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

A SS3 teamup before SS4 was introduced would have been way more interesting.

Yes, we should've gotten a Ssj3 team up against a Kuu/Duu team up before Gomah showed up. The set up was there, but for some reason they didn't take that path.

Goku just spamming 4 without Neva makes things even worse continuity wise.

Battle of Gods still works if you watch it before Daima, so the continuity only becomes a problem for Resurrection F and Super. As someone who likes neither, it doesn't bother me that they don't line up. In fact; I'd be very happy if they just continued on from wherever Daima leaves off next week and ignore Super.

[Fizzer]

I never really got why Super Saiyan 4 was such a popular design... until now. That adult SSJ4 with the Toriyama special seasoning looks gorgeous, probably my favourite Saiyan design now.

[fadeddreams5]

The most disappointing part of this final battle is Gomah not being completely possessed by the third eye and transforming into something cooler. Would have been the best opportunity to make a "canon" Janemba since that is exactly what Janemba did in Fusion Reborn: he took over the body of an unrelated ogre.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku just spamming 4 without Neva makes things even worse continuity wise.

Battle of Gods still works if you watch it before Daima, so the continuity only becomes a problem for Resurrection F and Super. As someone who likes neither, it doesn't bother me that they don't line up. In fact; I'd be very happy if they just continued on from wherever Daima leaves off next week and ignore Super.

Super retold both Battle of Gods and Ressurection F. Those stories from movies not only happened and are referenced continuously in Super, but Toriyama himself specifically requested both BOG and ROF be retold in Super. If you're going to ignore Super, you would then have to pretty much ignore every modern Dragon Ball story starting with Battle Of Gods and ending with Superhero because, for all intents and purposes, it all took place in one continuity.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If you're going to ignore Super, you would then have to pretty much ignore every modern Dragon Ball story starting with Battle Of Gods and ending with Superhero because, for all intents and purposes, it all took place in one continuity.

Not at all. I can watch the 2008 OVA, followed by Battle of Gods, then by Daima, and finally Z's epilogue.

[Zephyr]

It's weird people were praising Daima during the start for having a more adventure vibe similar to the original Dragon Ball, but now these last few eps are just straight up late-DBZ or GT style all fighting power-up episodes. It seems people are really conflicted what they wanted out of Daima. If anything I would have taken more adventure episodes exploring the world.

I think that's just an extension of different people wanting different things out of Dragon Ball in the first place.

But for some reason (I'm not sure why), I think that "he didn't know he was making plotholes and/or didn't really care if he was" seems a little more plausible to me. That would be very inline with how he'd been writing those stories for the past 10 years.

Rymus feels like such a weirdly deliberate alternate take on Zeno that this could easily be a case of Toriyama just flat-out upending the tea table on continuity, so I dunno. If it's intentional, it would fit Daima and Super having their own distinct style and storytelling.

It never felt that way to me. Pretty much all we'd seen Zeno do is destroy things, to the point that all of the other gods were terrified of him. Pretty much all we know about Rhymus is that he created the cosmos and appointed people to oversee it. So there's a certain creation and destruction distinction that I think makes them rather complementary.

It's also comically ironic that the creative side seems to involve demons more, while the destructive side seems to involve angels more. You'd think it'd be the other way around!

Rymus probably exists as Toriyama trying to avoid referencing a character—the Zen-Ou—that has yet to be introduced yet, so he's created a predecessor that can serve the same function, without contradicting the later revelations.

That or he just doesn't care. Life's too long and too short to give a shit sometimes.

Yeah it's possible that, despite all the other contradictions he's potentially made on purpose or through carelessness, he was particular about this one. That wouldn't really surprise me. Like anyone, we know he was particular about a lot of things, and much less picky about others. Being bothered by the intricacies of Goku's tail and his pants, correcting panels and characterization in Super, etc. While at the same time just leaving a bunch of stuff up to the anime staff, like fight scenes, choreography, etc.

[Mr Baggins]

I never really got why Super Saiyan 4 was such a popular design... until now. That adult SSJ4 with the Toriyama special seasoning looks gorgeous, probably my favourite Saiyan design now.

100%. Never in a million fucking years did I think I'd say "I like Super Saiyan 4", but the little adjustments really go a long way for me in this case and whatever this might tentatively lack in thematic or narrative substance, it more than makes up for in overall design and personality. I'm quite fond of it.

Pretty much all we'd seen Zeno do is destroy things, to the point that all of the other gods were terrified of him. Pretty much all we know about Rhymus is that he created the cosmos and appointed people to oversee it. So there's a certain creation and destruction distinction that I think makes them rather complementary.

For the most part, I base my interpretation on both characters being described as the highest authority in the universe and also sharing a similar design motif.

FWIW, though, I think your interpretation is equally valid. Or maybe both of us are right in a sense, and there's an eastern mythology inspired thing going on where these two guys represent different aspects of the same being. Personally, I have no particular horse in this race; whatever is fine with me. But it would be funny if the finale never addresses this and we're all stuck in theory limbo for god knows how long.

[Zephyr]

For the most part, I base my interpretation on both characters being described as the highest authority in the universe and also sharing a similar design motif.

FWIW, though, I think your interpretation is equally valid. Or maybe both of us are right in a sense, and there's an eastern mythology inspired thing going on where these two guys represent different aspects of the same being. Personally, I have no particular horse in this race; whatever is fine with me. But it would be funny if the finale never addresses this and we're all stuck in theory limbo for god knows how long.

Yeah them both being described as the highest authority seems fishy. At least at first. DB also has a tendency to continually introduce higher gods. This could be a message directed at the audience saying "actually there's someone higher than Zeno!". Or Super could (retroactively) now have a message directed at the characters saying "actually there's someone higher than Rymus!" Or both, or neither. If I'm right that it's a deliberate move to introduce a creator to go with a destroyer, then I think they could easily share the distinction. After all, who would you say is a "higher authority" between a Kaioshin and a Hakaishin? They seem to be equals, counterparts, partners of a sorts (under ideal circumstances).

I agree that it would be funny if it's never addressed in the finale, and I really don't expect it to be. And with Toriyama having passed away, we won't have the possibility of someone asking him about it, and him giving an answer that contradicts both shows and raises even more questions.

[SupremeKai25]

SSJ4 looks so much better in magenta than in those ugly SSJ4 colours. Also, the way SSJ4 is achieved in Daima makes much more sense and is in line with the spirit of Dragon Ball. Sappy and melodramatic speeches don't belong in Dragon Ball. To me SSJ4 in GT is on the same level as that "power of friendship!" speech Goku gave Jiren: Cringe tier. And I say this as someone who VASTLY prefers the Super anime to the manga.

SSJ4 in Daima = great introduction, beautiful colours, badass spotlight (toyed with Gomah and forced him to unleash the full powers of the Evil Third Eye and become a giant)... yeah, what's there not to like? As far as I'm concerned, Toriyama redeemed SSJ4.

But it would be funny if the finale never addresses this and we're all stuck in theory limbo for god knows how long.

I would LOVE this. There's nothing better than a "theory limbo", as you call it, to generate some internet theories around a franchise.

Stuff like Rymus and Yamoshi... we need more of this mysterious, ancient lore, that we know so little about, but enough to make theories.

A world without mysteries is a dead world. When your story stops having mysteries, your story is dead.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

SSJ4 looks so much better in magenta than in those ugly SSJ4 colours.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with you. I may not have liked it on kid Goku, but the little we saw of it on adult Goku makes it look like the strongest form any Saiyan has reached. I really hope Goku gets the job done with it.

[bahhma]

Canon in Dragon Ball doesn't mean anything anymore and it's obvious it never mattered in the first place when Toriyama himself never cared that much about it. Arguing about it is like trying to argue about the timeline in the Fast & Furious movies, it's a lost cause.

"Canon" matters when the creative powers-that-be behind a franchise make a focused effort to firmly establish what counts as part of the main narrative and actually tries to keep new material coherent with it. The Lord of the Rings and One Piece has a clear, well-maintained narrative where everything fits together because their creators actually gives a damn because they're thinking like a storyteller first and foremost. Toriyama doesn't care about structured storytelling; he's been freestyling since day one, making shit up as he goes because it's fun. The other creators just follow his lead, slapping on band-aids to keep the whole thing from collapsing under its own contradictions.

It doesn't matter for Dragon Ball, where the closest reasonable thing to a "main narrative" ended 30 years ago, and the past decade has introduced three separate spin-off series that don't fit with each other. It's a corporate free-for-all product where Toei, Toriyama, and Toyotaro just throw whatever they want at the wall without caring if it contradicts the past.

Broly for instance was never canon and he was one of the most popular characters among the fans. Same for SSJ4. Same for Z Bardock. Fans never cared about what was "canon" as long as it was cool. Ironically, Super trying to force a "canon" while constantly retconning things just made it all worse.

And if you want to go down the rabbit hole, then DBS, the canon continuation of DBZ fucked the continuity up by retconning many things between the Majin Boo arc and the End of Z chapter, mainly the new forms and the new characters that were never there in End of Z, and the fact that in the last chapter of DBZ, Goku states that he has not met Bulma and co for years (5 or 10 IIRC) when we can see them hanging out together in Super Hero, which makes it very hard to tie up the loose ends now without retconning DBZ’s last chapter.

I agree with this entire post and I feel like the concept of canonical should be disregarded completely when talking about this franchise. You have a complete story in Dragon Ball Chapters 1 to 519 and everything else is an adaptation.

[BernardoCairo]

That doesn't mean there is no canon trough.

My take is this: continuity is important. The original manga has a solid continuity with a clear beginning, middle, and end. GT, Super, Daima, they all need to be coherent within themselves, even if they sometimes fall short. But it doesn't really matter if these stories connect perfectly from one series to another.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Daima's 19th episode has a 9.9 rating on IMDB, the highest rated piece of media this year. I expected nothing less form an episode focused on Ssj3 Vegeta.