hyperbole or fact

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:06 pm

Herms wrote:Gravity:

Light:

Food:

Speed:

You're missing the point. Yes, there are 'exceptions' (most can be explained, either as pseudo-logical extentions or common sci-fi devices, but I won't get sidetracked here), but, whenever those 'exceptions' aren't in effect, the workings of the DB universe are the same as ours.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:18 pm

Rocketman wrote:You're missing the point. Yes, there are 'exceptions' (most can be explained, either as pseudo-logical extentions or common sci-fi devices, but I won't get sidetracked here), but, whenever those 'exceptions' aren't in effect, the workings of the DB universe are the same as ours.

Well yeah, obviously when it's not different, it's the same. But there are so many 'exceptions', in pretty much every chapter, that trying to make inferences based on real world science is pointless. There are probably more 'exceptions' than instances where actual science if followed.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:43 am

In dragon ball manga, how would we know if these statements were fact or hyperbole?

"Mr. Popo's statement about faster than lightning."

"Cell's statement about blowing up the solar system."

"Faster than lightning" is a fairly common hyperbole, and likely was used as such in this instance as well. If 23rd Budokai era Goku was that fast than Freeza could have just flown to Earth under his own power after Namek because he'd have been faster than his ship. We also have nothing during the course of the story that indicates anyone ever went faster than the speed of light. The closest we ever get to something like that is Gotenks' trips around the Earth but we don't know how long he was resting before Piccolo found him.

As for Cell's statement, there's no real reason to doubt it. I'm quite sure that, by that point in the series, he would have had enough power to detonate the sun, which would be the fastest and simpliest means of taking out the entire solar system. Though even without doing that I don't see why he couldn't generate a blast wave of energy cappable of stretching out to the edge of the system and destroying everything in its wake. After all, he's got at least several thousand times the power Freeza had when he blew up Planet Vegeta with very little effort.

Cause they are WRITTEN BY TORIYAMA HIMSELF! Not the people claiming it is hyperbole, not TOEI and not the Geeks on the net.

So are many many many other things that later turn out not to be true. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's to be taken litterally or that it was intended as true. Character speech is just that, character speech. When an author wishes to convey their own words they use narration.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:27 am

Xyex wrote:After all, he's got at least several thousand times the power Freeza had when he blew up Planet Vegeta with very little effort.

Hmm....

Iiiit's science time!

Today: Planet Vegeta!

We all know the planet Vegeta is supposed to have ten times the gravity of Earth, but what sort of planet would have such powerful gravity? (Note that Jupiter's gravity is 'only' 2.5 times stronger than Earth)

Obviously, PV was not a gas giant, which will help somewhat, but let's note two quick facts:

-Uranium is the heaviest naturally-occurring element, but it is extremely rare, and it's hopefully obvious that PV was not a solid chunk of Uranium.
-Planets begin as lumps of rock, iron, and ice. Pure iron should be taken as the densest material possible for a planet (Note that stuff like lead is denser and naturally-occurring, but is very rare, you wouldn't get enough to build a planet out of naturally).

So, knowing this, what is the smallest diameter that Planet Vegeta can have and still have 10x Earth's gravity?

90,000 kilometers, if it's made of pure iron. This is a solid lump of iron seven times larger than Earth.

Screw this, guys. Let's hit the pub.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:38 am

Kaio's planet also had ten times Earth's gravity, didn't it? And that was about as big as...hell, I've been in small stores bigger than that place. Planet Zun, Pui-Pui home world, had ten times Earth's gravity as well. Seems to be a fairly common number.

FormallyKnownAsPrince · Post by **FormallyKnownAsPrince** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:16 pm

Also, in reference to uranium being the densest/heaviest element, didn't the Kaio's mention something about kecheen (totally made up the spelling there) being the strongest metal in the universe? Anyone remember this? It was the metal block that Goku & Gohan broke the Z sword with...

Post by **Herms** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:29 pm

It's name was Katchin steel. I don't think hardness is the same thing as density, though.

SSJ2bardock · Post by **SSJ2bardock** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 pm

Doesn't density go hand in hand with hardness?

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:48 pm

Herms wrote:Kaio's planet also had ten times Earth's gravity, didn't it? And that was about as big as...hell, I've been in small stores bigger than that place. Planet Zun, Pui-Pui home world, had ten times Earth's gravity as well. Seems to be a fairly common number.

Kaio's world is a deific planet in another dimension (don't laugh). Standard logic can't be applied.

djkalteraphine · Post by **djkalteraphine** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:21 pm

Rocketman wrote:
Xyex wrote:After all, he's got at least several thousand times the power Freeza had when he blew up Planet Vegeta with very little effort.
Hmm....

Iiiit's science time!

Today: Planet Vegeta!

We all know the planet Vegeta is supposed to have ten times the gravity of Earth, but what sort of planet would have such powerful gravity? (Note that Jupiter's gravity is 'only' 2.5 times stronger than Earth)

Obviously, PV was not a gas giant, which will help somewhat, but let's note two quick facts:

-Uranium is the heaviest naturally-occurring element, but it is extremely rare, and it's hopefully obvious that PV was not a solid chunk of Uranium.
-Planets begin as lumps of rock, iron, and ice. Pure iron should be taken as the densest material possible for a planet (Note that stuff like lead is denser and naturally-occurring, but is very rare, you wouldn't get enough to build a planet out of naturally).

So, knowing this, what is the smallest diameter that Planet Vegeta can have and still have 10x Earth's gravity?

90,000 kilometers, if it's made of pure iron. This is a solid lump of iron seven times larger than Earth.

Screw this, guys. Let's hit the pub.

Well, from what we see of Planet Vegeta, it certainly doesn't look that big (or all that populated). I do like the idea of it being made of pure iron, though.

YummyPunch · Post by **YummyPunch** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:09 pm

SSJ2bardock wrote:Doesn't density go hand in hand with hardness?

Hardness is established by intermolecular and interatomic bonds; these are constant. Density is not set for a material. Density of something that changes under different air pressures and gravities.

Toriyama Boss · Post by **Toriyama Boss** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:53 pm

Xyex wrote:So are many many many other things that later turn out not to be true. Just because it's written doesn't mean it's to be taken litterally or that it was intended as true. Character speech is just that, character speech. When an author wishes to convey their own words they use narration.

No, when a characters ability is DEFINED that is suppose to be taken literally because the Author WROTE the words himself.

Onikage725 · Post by **Onikage725** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:15 pm

Am I the only one who took the comment on speed to mean reflexes, not top running/flying speed?

Mayhap my math is off, but someone with quick reflexes can dodge a thrown knife or catch a baseball, but that doesn't mean he could outrun either. Granted I dont remember the scene much, but my interpretation has always been along the lines of Dragon Ball characters having lightning-quick reflexes, not that their overall speed of travel was faster than light.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:56 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Am I the only one who took the comment on speed to mean reflexes, not top running/flying speed?

Mayhap my math is off, but someone with quick reflexes can dodge a thrown knife or catch a baseball, but that doesn't mean he could outrun either. Granted I dont remember the scene much, but my interpretation has always been along the lines of Dragon Ball characters having lightning-quick reflexes, not that their overall speed of travel was faster than light.

I totally agree with you and see that as the best overall explanation for the whole speed question.

Also, I was wondering, in the Japanese version does Piccolo state that Raditz is faster than light when he dodges the first Special Beam Cannon like in the Funi dub? I know it doesn't say that in the English version of the manga but still...

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:01 pm

I doubt it. It's an energy blast, made of ki, not light.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:17 pm

SSj_Rambo wrote:Also, I was wondering, in the Japanese version does Piccolo state that Raditz is faster than light when he dodges the first Special Beam Cannon like in the Funi dub? I know it doesn't say that in the English version of the manga but still...

No, he just says that Raditz is very fast. Come to think of it, I don't think the phrase "speed of light" or "light speed" are ever mentioned at all at any point in the original manga.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:23 pm

Onikage725 wrote:Am I the only one who took the comment on speed to mean reflexes, not top running/flying speed?

Mayhap my math is off, but someone with quick reflexes can dodge a thrown knife or catch a baseball, but that doesn't mean he could outrun either. Granted I dont remember the scene much, but my interpretation has always been along the lines of Dragon Ball characters having lightning-quick reflexes, not that their overall speed of travel was faster than light.

Yeah, that's been my thoughts as well. "Quick as lightning" has always been a refrence to reflexes.