Dragon Ball Daima Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

That’s an interesting point. I’m not sure if Gohan being Ultimate in BoG was originally Toriyama’s idea or just Watanabe’s script, but by the time of RoF, Toriyama clearly wasn’t considering that form for him, since he only used SS1.

As for Gotenks, I don’t think he’s being accounted for as a SS3. In BoG, he only used SS1 against Beerus, which could imply they didn’t factor in his SS3 form when establishing the power hierarchy. If we go by what’s actually shown, the pecking order would be something like:

SSG Goku > SS2 Vegeta (Rage Boosted) > SS3 Goku > SS2 Vegeta > SS1 Gotenks > Gohan (SS1/Ultimate?)

That would make Goku the strongest before the fight against Beerus, with Gotenks not necessarily being factored in at his peak.

[ZombieVito]

I agree with the final part. Gohan losing his power is just as likely as Goku gaining power. But in this case, wouldn't that make Gotenks the strongest? Or does he not count because he's a fusion, making Goku the true number one?

Vegeta certainly doesn't consider fusion to be true strength as seen when he shot the boys down about entering the U6 tournament.

[LightBing]

Gotenks isn't a single individual, he wouldn't be brought when discussing who's the strongest in such terms.
If we're counting fusions, Vegetto is the strongest end of the story.

[Hugo Boss]

I think there’s a distinction between Gotenks and Vegetto in this context. Fusion is basically a core part of Goten and Trunks’ fighting style. They rely on it heavily, to the point where they almost always fight as Gotenks in serious situations. Goku and Vegeta, on the other hand, prefer not to fuse unless it’s absolutely necessary.

[TobyS]

Yes, Gohan did use his Ultimate form in the movie and both Super adaptations. What I was referring to was the fact that Yūsuke Watanabe originally stated Gohan wasn’t supposed to turn Super Saiyan at all. Gohan was only meant to use Ultimate, meaning the SS1 scene was seemingly added later, whether by mistake or a deliberate change by someone else in the production.

This could explain what led to them continuing that portrayal into Resurrection ‘F’, which is only about a year after Battle of Gods. We don’t know exactly how long Videl was pregnant in Battle of Gods, but we do know Freeza was revived after Pan was already born and a few months old. Since Freeza trained for about four months before coming to Earth, that places the events of RF roughly a year after BoG.

If Gohan still had access to Ultimate four years after Majin Boo’s defeat in Battle of Gods, it would be strange for him to lose it just a single year later in Resurrection ‘F’. This suggests that someone may not have considered Ultimate for him at that point or simply didn’t account for it consistently in the narrative.

I agree with the final part. Gohan losing his power is just as likely as Goku gaining power. But in this case, wouldn't that make Gotenks the strongest? Or does he not count because he's a fusion, making Goku the true number one?

Are you saying that Gohan powered up in his base form during this scene ?

Yes. "Canonically", he's either in his base form or his Super Saiyan state.

https://gyazo.com/10a6b92e08a51315b8c2fe50cbafd23a

This scene is from the Battle of Gods movie after "correction"

In the original scene, with Toriyama's approval, Gohan was supposed to be a Super Saiyan here.
In the most recent version of these events, the DBS Anime, Gohan is in his Base form instead (he doesn't have his bang).

Gohan does have his bang in the DBS Manga but the Manga also doesn't recognize it as a separate transformation so he's probably in his Base form there as well.

I agree with Koitsukai, Toriyama obviously didn't think Gohan was supposed to be one of the strong guys anymore.
It's like it took Gohan 25 hours to unlock his potential and he lost it again just as fast. He goes Super Saiyan to power up in GT too, so it seems like "Ultimate Gohan" was exclusively a Buu Saga thing and/or a dropped idea.

As per the interview Hugo shared, Gohan using SSJ vs Beerus was a mistake. The final, canon, Toriyama-approved version is with Gohan using Ultimate. Might have been a watered down, limited Ultimate, but Ultimate nonetheless.

For what it's worth I think Piccolo says Gohan hasn't been Ultimate since the Boo Saga in the DBS Anime, but as Vito said him losing to Beerus is a big deal.

Goku stronger than Gohan is either toei bullshit in the same way early pre bog super filler has vegeta say gokus the strongest, or he's accounting for gohan being a baby.

Unlike bog or rof where you can debate gohans loss of power and gokus gains this is far closer to right after boo then it is bog. Shin also doesn't know about 4 either.

Toei does have a track record of overhyping Goku, but I think Toriyama is to blame too. Being the simple writer that he was, it's only natural he'd take the main character to be the strongest. Gohan is a second fiddle just like Vegeta, and Gotenks was swept under the rug like the bad joke he is.

The only Toeism here is Vegeta's line in the DBS Anime. He says Goku became the strongest by defeating Boo, like Goku was already stronger than Gohan by the Kid Boo fight. That's unlikely.

We already had the bigger toeism by base saiyans insanely over performing in daima which Toriyama didn't do. And yeah daima is before even the filler where vegeta says goku is strongest so it's even less likely.
Toriyama went out of his way to nerf kid boo so goku could be the one to fight him rather than contrive a power up.
People overplay toriyamas forgetfulness he reread the manga after forgetting super saiyan e in bogs production so he probably didn't really forget stuff between then and his death as he Refreshed his memory and was then actively working on the franchise again till he passed, to say nothing of super fan Toyo being able to probably chime in if he did. Shin saying goku was stronger has to be either gohan being a kid or toei bullshit.

Even if toriyama had changed his mind toei were probably only right by coincidence lmao

Toriyama had to invent ssgod to explain Goku surpassing gohan and then had to actively nerf him in RoF to prevent him catching up or surpassing him and allowed toyo to have vegeta say that gohan still had the most potential.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

This is where everyone stood in comparison to each other in the Buu arc:

Ssj Vegetto
Mystic Gohan
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj3 Goku
Ssj2 Vegeta

Where does everyone think adult Goku and Vegeta's Ssj3 form fits in this hierarchy ? What about adult Goku's Ssj4 ? Goku didn't fight as an adult using Ssj3 in Daima, so I'm just going to assume he's as strong as Vegeta in that form.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Goku and Vegeta’s SS3 forms are slightly above their Boo arc selves. SS4, however, works as a major boost over SS3 (perhaps 10x?), making it likely stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc. It might not necessarily surpass SS Vegetto, but I’d place it somewhere between Ultimate Gohan and SS Vegetto.

So, my best guess for hierarchy:

SS Vegetto (Boo arc) > SS4 Goku (Daima) > Goku (Super Spirit Bomb) > Ultimate Gohan (Boo arc) > SS3 Gotenks (Boo arc) > SS3 Vegeta (Daima) > SS3 Goku (Boo arc)

[Yuji]

Super Vegetto

Base Vegetto - 180
Gohan Boo - 175
Gotenks Boo - 155

Ultimate Gohan - 100
SS3 Gotenks - 80
Super Boo - 75

SS4 Goku - 50
Gomah - 40

Kid Boo - 25
SS3 Goku / SS3 Vegeta (Daima) - 25
SS3 Goku (Boo) - 24
SS4 Mini Goku - 20
Fat Boo - 20

That's still how I see it. I still don't see any convincing argument for SS4 to be any higher than x2. There's a big difference between SS3 Goku and the tier above, so there's place for another tier exclusively for SS4 and Gomah.

Maybe the intention wasn't for Goku to still be weaker than Gohan in his newest form but the fact they keep nerfing Gohan's Ultimate form and didn't really portray Gomah or SS4 as much more powerful than SS3, makes things turn out this way.

[ZombieVito]

Super Vegetto

Base Vegetto - 180
Gohan Boo - 175
Gotenks Boo - 155

Ultimate Gohan - 100
SS3 Gotenks - 80
Super Boo - 75

SS4 Goku - 50
Gomah - 40

Kid Boo - 25
SS3 Goku / SS3 Vegeta (Daima) - 25
SS3 Goku (Boo) - 24
SS4 Mini Goku - 20
Fat Boo - 20

That's still how I see it. I still don't see any convincing argument for SS4 to be any higher than x2. There's a big difference between SS3 Goku and the tier above, so there's place for another tier exclusively for SS4 and Gomah.

Maybe the intention wasn't for Goku to still be weaker than Gohan in his newest form but the fact they keep nerfing Gohan's Ultimate form and didn't really portray Gomah or SS4 as much more powerful than SS3, makes things turn out this way.

Didn't Boohan said that he wasn't going all out against base Vegetto?

The director for episode 18 did mention Oozaru had a hand in the SS4 transformation so for simplicity sake, it could be 10 times SS3. I don't see nothing wrong with it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That’s an interesting point. I’m not sure if Gohan being Ultimate in BoG was originally Toriyama’s idea or just Watanabe’s script, but by the time of RoF, Toriyama clearly wasn’t considering that form for him, since he only used SS1.

As for Gotenks, I don’t think he’s being accounted for as a SS3. In BoG, he only used SS1 against Beerus, which could imply they didn’t factor in his SS3 form when establishing the power hierarchy. If we go by what’s actually shown, the pecking order would be something like:

SSG Goku > SS2 Vegeta (Rage Boosted) > SS3 Goku > SS2 Vegeta > SS1 Gotenks > Gohan (SS1/Ultimate?)

That would make Goku the strongest before the fight against Beerus, with Gotenks not necessarily being factored in at his peak.

Watanabe’s original script had the movie take place before the Boo Saga, so I’m putting that on Toriyama’s account. At the end of the day, Gohan is Ultimate in the finished, approved product and in both retellings Toriyama asked for.

Going by the movie alone, Beerus does compliment SSJ2 Vegeta even before the rage boost, but I don’t think SSJ Gotenks going after Gohan means he’s stronger. In the anime, base Gotenks goes after Boo and Piccolo is shocked that Gotenks was defeated as well. The order of the fights doesn’t matter.

But let’s be honest, the animators most likely just didn’t want to draw SSJ3 Gotenks.

Even if toriyama had changed his mind toei were probably only right by coincidence lmao

This is definitely the case lol. He doesn’t even have to change his mind, it’s just that after the status quo would come back and Goku would be the strongest. The question is whether Goku got stronger or Gohan got weaker.

SSJG wasn’t invented fire Goku to surpass Gohan though. Goku and Vegeta are the only guys that really matter in BoG, and if we see the movie as the one off it was meant to be (ergo, without hindsight from RoF), Gohan was likely meant to be at FP.

This is where everyone stood in comparison to each other in the Buu arc:

Ssj Vegetto
Mystic Gohan
Ssj3 Gotenks
Ssj3 Goku
Ssj2 Vegeta

Where does everyone think adult Goku and Vegeta's Ssj3 form fits in this hierarchy ? What about adult Goku's Ssj4 ? Goku didn't fight as an adult using Ssj3 in Daima, so I'm just going to assume he's as strong as Vegeta in that form.

Most likely SSJ3 adults are stronger than Gohan, but just by a bit. I think they’re still weaker than Bootenks and Boohan. SSJ2 is still at the bottom of the chain.

I don’t see anyone in Daima surpassing Super Vegetto because both Super and GT made a big deal out of it (specially Super, but I guess AT learned his lesson after bloating and then changing his mind), but I like to say SSJ4 Goku = Super Vegetto as a nod to that old GT pamphlet/guide.

[Hugo Boss]

Watanabe’s original script had the movie take place before the Boo Saga, so I’m putting that on Toriyama’s account. At the end of the day, Gohan is Ultimate in the finished, approved product and in both retellings Toriyama asked for.

Going by the movie alone, Beerus does compliment SSJ2 Vegeta even before the rage boost, but I don’t think SSJ Gotenks going after Gohan means he’s stronger. In the anime, base Gotenks goes after Boo and Piccolo is shocked that Gotenks was defeated as well. The order of the fights doesn’t matter.

But let’s be honest, the animators most likely just didn’t want to draw SSJ3 Gotenks.

That’s a fair point about Watanabe’s script. I hadn’t considered that. But I’m still not sure that automatically makes Ultimate Gohan something Toriyama specifically asked for, rather than just something carried over from the existing continuity when the timeline was adjusted.

As for the power rankings, I agree that the order of fights doesn’t necessarily dictate who’s stronger. But at the very least, SS2 Vegeta (even before the rage boost) was portrayed as above Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan. Beerus actually acknowledged his strength, which wasn’t the case for anyone else outside of Goku.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if the animators skipped SS3 Gotenks just to make things simpler, but if we go strictly by what’s shown, it does seem like his strongest form wasn’t factored into the hierarchy.

[Yuji]

Which of these could Gomah defeat?

1. Kid Boo
2. Gohan Boo
3. Super Janemba
4. Hirudegarn
5. Base Baby Vegeta

Scenario 1: same battle power as he started vs Goku & co
Scenario 2: at his peak with the third eye vs SS4

[ZombieVito]

Which of these could Gomah defeat?

1. Kid Boo
2. Gohan Boo
3. Super Janemba
4. Hirudegarn
5. Base Baby Vegeta

Scenario 1: same battle power as he started vs Goku & co
Scenario 2: at his peak with the third eye vs SS4

Scenario 1: Losses to Kid Boo.
Scenario 2: Clears.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

That’s a fair point about Watanabe’s script. I hadn’t considered that. But I’m still not sure that automatically makes Ultimate Gohan something Toriyama specifically asked for, rather than just something carried over from the existing continuity when the timeline was adjusted.

As for the power rankings, I agree that the order of fights doesn’t necessarily dictate who’s stronger. But at the very least, SS2 Vegeta (even before the rage boost) was portrayed as above Buu, Gotenks, and Gohan. Beerus actually acknowledged his strength, which wasn’t the case for anyone else outside of Goku.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if the animators skipped SS3 Gotenks just to make things simpler, but if we go strictly by what’s shown, it does seem like his strongest form wasn’t factored into the hierarchy.

Toriyama said he changed the time period because he wanted he wanted (almost) all the cast to be at their best.

It’s when all the members [of the cast] were at their strongest, so I thought it was just right. If it were at the time of the final chapter, Goku would be heading off somewhere with Oob, after all.

(Curiously he says this in several interviews, and sometimes he says "almost everyone" instead of everyone.)

As I said in another reply, the fact the movie was originally meant as a one off makes me think Gohan was at his best too. If we accept Gohan is weakened here, it's because RoF retroactively established so. Come to think of it, the fact Gohan readily puts on his Gi but by RoF doesn't even have it could mean he didn't slack off until BoG.

Gohan's perfomance in the movie is indeed very lackluster though. Going by Beerus' comment I'd say Vegeta is better than him, but SSJ2 Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan doesn't seem right. It's like Koitsukai said, Toriyama just didn't want to give Gohan the spotlight. The anime puts a lot of emphasis on Gohan's defeat, but it also has him in civilian clothes instead of his Gi (Which I assume was done with RoF in mind).

Which of these could Gomah defeat?

1. Kid Boo
2. Gohan Boo
3. Super Janemba
4. Hirudegarn
5. Base Baby Vegeta

Scenario 1: same battle power as he started vs Goku & co
Scenario 2: at his peak with the third eye vs SS4

First scenario he might defeat Kid Boo. He was above SSJ3 Mini Goku, but not enough to take on Goku, Doo and T1 together. Not sure how strong Goku is. Worst case scenario they're locked in eternal combat since they both have infinite stamina and regeneration.

Second scenario he should clear, with only Baby Vegeta posing any real challenge. I like SSJ4 Goku = Super Vegetto as a nod to that GT magazine, and Gomah wasn't far behind. There's a small chance Baby is stronger (Really just depends on how the numbers go), but the eye keeps Gomah in the game long enough to win.

[Hugo Boss]

Which of these could Gomah defeat?

1. Kid Boo
2. Gohan Boo
3. Super Janemba
4. Hirudegarn
5. Base Baby Vegeta

Scenario 1: same battle power as he started vs Goku & co
Scenario 2: at his peak with the third eye vs SS4

Scenario 1: Third-Eye Gomah at his starting battle power

At the beginning of his fight against Goku and everyone, Gomah was still building up power and was not at his peak. This means he would likely be below any Z-era SS3+-tier characters, like Kid Boo, Gohan Boo, Super Janemba, and Hirudegarn. Base Baby Vegeta is below his SS1-equivalent form, but he should still be stronger than Kid Boo, going by GT scaling.

Who he likely loses to in Scenario 1:
Kid Boo
Gohan Boo
Super Janemba
Hirudegarn
Base Baby Vegeta

⸻

Scenario 2: Third-Eye Gomah at his peak

At his full power, Third-Eye Gomah was able to challenge a full-grown SS4 Goku. That means he surpasses almost anyone from Z, including Kid Boo, Gohan Boo, Super Janemba, and Hirudegarn.

Who he defeats in Scenario 2:
Kid Boo
Gohan Boo
Super Janemba
Hirudegarn
Base Baby Vegeta

⸻

Extra Scenario: Third-Eye Gomah at full power against all Baby Vegeta forms

If GT SS4 Goku is way stronger than Daima SS4 Goku, then Gomah still wouldn’t be anywhere near GT Super Baby 3’s level.

Defeats Base Baby Vegeta
Likely defeats Super Baby 1 (SS1-equivalent)
Tough fight against Super Baby 2, could go either way
Loses to Super Baby 3 (SS3-equivalent)
Loses to Golden Oozaru Baby

[TobyS]

So do we have any idea how much being kids nerfed the cast now in hindsight?

Firstly two factors for my question:

1. Ignoring toei performing having base saiyans over perform either as kids and adults.
2. Asking this question in terms of manga scaling only not anime filler.

We know Dabra couldn't beat tamagamis (any? or just the strongest one and thus not being worth doing?)
We don't know if he attempted this again after the majin seal or how much of a power up he got from being majinised.

We don't know if the kids nerf hit the cast differently, being different species sith different lifespans it could have hit Shin harder for example.

Are there any more concrete statements?

Working also on the common sense that piccolo is above the base saiyans but weaker than shin in the boo saga
That gohan is the strongest and ss4 doesn't bring goku above ultimate gohan, because gohan still has ultimate here and has more potential than goku.

What about the third eye multiplier?

[Hugo Boss]

The “kids” nerf is tricky to quantify, but we do have some clues. In general, being younger seems to limit the Saiyans’ ability to fully utilize their potential power, but it doesn’t seem to be a strict multiplier decrease. Their SS1 forms were still strong enough to press the Tamagamis, which suggests they retain most of their fundamental strength and combat ability, but they lacked control and endurance compared to their adult selves. Their SS2, SS3 and SS4 were still incredibly powerful, but
the farther a form was from base, the more noticeable the drop-off was.

By the way, Daima supports the idea that Base Goku is stronger than Shin, which lines up with how he handled Glorio while thinking he was stronger than Shin. As for SS4, it definitely puts Goku above Ultimate Gohan. Daima is pretty clear that SS4 Goku is on a completely different level. In fact, SS4 Goku might even be beyond Super Boo with Gohan absorbed. And the third eye is more of a conceptual ability than a traditional power boost. It seemingly allows the user to transcend whatever is affecting them rather than being a raw power increase.

[ZombieVito]

So do we have any idea how much being kids nerfed the cast now in hindsight?

Firstly two factors for my question:

1. Ignoring toei performing having base saiyans over perform either as kids and adults.
2. Asking this question in terms of manga scaling only not anime filler.

We know Dabra couldn't beat tamagamis (any? or just the strongest one and thus not being worth doing?)
We don't know if he attempted this again after the majin seal or how much of a power up he got from being majinised.

We don't know if the kids nerf hit the cast differently, being different species sith different lifespans it could have hit Shin harder for example.

Are there any more concrete statements?

Working also on the common sense that piccolo is above the base saiyans but weaker than shin in the boo saga
That gohan is the strongest and ss4 doesn't bring goku above ultimate gohan, because gohan still has ultimate here and has more potential than goku.

What about the third eye multiplier?

At least 10 times in the case of Goku and Vegeta since SS3 Vegeta > SS4 Mini Goku.

Shin was massively nerfed since he became weaker than base Goku.

No idea on Piccolo but he seems to be closer to SS Goku/Vegeta than his adult self was.

[TobyS]

The “kids” nerf is tricky to quantify, but we do have some clues. In general, being younger seems to limit the Saiyans’ ability to fully utilize their potential power, but it doesn’t seem to be a strict multiplier decrease. Their SS1 forms were still strong enough to press the Tamagamis, which suggests they retain most of their fundamental strength and combat ability, but they lacked control and endurance compared to their adult selves. Their SS2, SS3 and SS4 were still incredibly powerful, but
the farther a form was from base, the more noticeable the drop-off was.

By the way, Daima supports the idea that Base Goku is stronger than Shin, which lines up with how he handled Glorio while thinking he was stronger than Shin. As for SS4, it definitely puts Goku above Ultimate Gohan. Daima is pretty clear that SS4 Goku is on a completely different level. In fact, SS4 Goku might even be beyond Super Boo with Gohan absorbed. And the third eye is more of a conceptual ability than a traditional power boost. It seemingly allows the user to transcend whatever is affecting them rather than being a raw power increase.

Shin being not significant does seem to be the case, which can only mean he's more hit by the nerf imo, that's my headcanon because we know he's stronger than adult piccolo and thus the base saiyans by far.
But again, Toei has base saiyans overperform so that's gotta be factored in.

[Hugo Boss]

There’s nothing so far that suggests Shin was more affected than Goku, Vegeta, or Piccolo. If anything, his performance in Daima just reinforces that he wasn’t particularly overwhelming to begin with.

Besides, Shin being far stronger than Piccolo and the base Saiyans in the Boo arc was never outright confirmed. The idea of him being powerful always felt like a suspicion rather than something concretely backed by feats. There’s a real chance that he wasn’t even stronger than Final Form Freeza.

On the other hand, the Boo arc itself suggests that the base Saiyans were comparable to or possibly even stronger than Piccolo at that point. Dragon Ball Super further supports this, with base Gohan and Goku performing on par with him in multiple instances. So rather than Shin being nerfed harder, I’d say Daima just continues the trend of him not living up to the Supreme Kai must be crazy strong assumption that the characters initially had.