Do you think GT Goku and Vegeta are stronger than their Super counterparts?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

oh boi, where do i even begin?

the comma stuff just a subtitle thing, yoe were reading way into it

goku in japanese said:
「お前みたいな強え奴は久しぶりだ！」
(Omae mitai na tsuyē yatsu wa hisashiburi da!)

which gets translated as "It's been a long time since I faced someone as strong as you!" that basically means baby vegeta > hirudegarn | janemba | kid buu since these are the ones he would have fought in the Toei's continuity

Yeah, I imagined so.

about the ''never felt ki like this'' part, people often bring up the "felt ki" line but forget that Goku had already used a similar phrasing before and excluded himself from that context. this was in the fusion reborn movie


This makes it nearly zero chance that he would include himself in a line of identical fashion (GT), especially, and let alone, when referencing a fusion involving himself. Arguing that Goku in GT for whatever reason applied a different mentality to that line would be just unsubstantiated, as there’s no evidence of substance to suggest a distinction between the two scenarios where goke use this type of statements to

Well in GT the statement does include Goku himself because Baby just beat his ass.

Before achieving Super Baby 1 (SB1), Baby Vegeta was already an even match for Goku and more even with Goku using Super Saiyan 3, as noted by Goku himself. he wasn't cornered by goku when fighting him and neither did he corner goku tho it's evidently clear that he didn't feel threatened by SSJ3 goku. once Baby reached the SB1 level, Goku commented that he had never felt a ki like this before. This suggests that SB1's power was beyond anything Goku had ever encountered or could compare to, meaning Baby Vegeta’s base form was still below this unprecedented threshold.so goku in SS3 couldn't have been above buuhan as neither were baby vegeta.

This is the source of heat and contention for a lot of people, as far as I know, because for many, it doesn’t make sense. After all the time-skip training, how could Goku not be significantly stronger than he was during the events of Movie 13? He would only need to be a couple of times more powerful than he was in that movie to surpass Buuhan. The takeaway, for many, is that Goku’s training only made him less than double the power he was in Movie 13 and to add oil to the fire, lots of people even argue that hirudegarn is stronger than buuhan because gotenks and super boo are around the same level and gotenks said that gohan wasn't too much stronger than him so interpret that as you might

so either movie 13 didn't occur in the GT verse due to being irreconcilable with its power level showings or there is some

In either case, it’s clear that using Movie 13 for GT is a can of worms, because that’s where a lot of people end up falling into this inescapable rabbit hole. The reason they slip into that rabbit hole is likely because they assume that the GT writers made Goku the same version as the one from the movies, without realizing that Koyama was in charge of the movie’s affairs, not the GT staff. This misregistration leads people to treat the two as one and the same. This is a core error in logic because the more logical scenario is that GT Goku is built off from the main story as the primary source and the movies are just nodded and without the movies, goku from the Buu arc was nowhere near comparable to super boo, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, let alone buutenks or buuhan. so if you go by this notion, things check out and everything fits cuz it would explain why goku trained for more than a decade and yet still weaker than buuhan, it's cuz he did get exponentially more powerful just not to the extent that people think of him

About people who claim Buuhan was equal to base Vegito or even stronger than him (which is total cap), this idea seems to come from people who misapply manga logic to GT. In the manga, Vegito went straight to Super Saiyan 1, so they assume that means Buuhan is stronger than base Vegito in that context. But trying to use that same logic for GT isn’t just wrong—it’s straight-up misguided. GT follows the anime, not the manga, and forcing manga logic onto GT just creates a dead-end filled with absurd conclusions.

So Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks but weaker than Boohan? How does that make any sense? GT Base Goku is SSJ3 level. You go with that theory about Base Gotenks surpassing SSJ3 Goku in the Rosat?

Baby seemed to have a slight advantage over Goku, but the fight is too short. Either way, Goku's line to Baby sounds more like a generic "You're strong" (Or even already an admission of Baby being the strongest) than an implicit comparison to Boo. When someone was actually compared to Boo (Rild), the comparison was made pretty clear. Saying BV is compared to Boohan is confusing and redundant.

Even comparing base Vegito to Buuhan doesn’t hold up. Let me remind those who think this that base Vegito soberly overpowered and blasted Buuhan so hard that only the upper half of his body was left. And he did that without needing Kaioken or let alone SSJ1. When Vegito went Super Saiyan, it wasn’t because he needed to—it was part of his plan to push Buuhan into despair and trick him into absorbing him so he could save his friends and family. That’s the part such people always seem to forget or deliberately ignore.




From my perspective, Buuhan wasn’t on Vegito’s level at all from the get-go. The moment Vegito came into being, it was over. The only thing keeping Buuhan alive was his busted regeneration. Without it, he would’ve been killed outright then and there. It’s also important to note that Vegito could’ve killed him at any point he wanted, even in base, if that had been his goal—but it wasn’t, because his objective from the start was to save his family.

Buuhan refused to accept being hopeless and powerless, even against Super Saiyan 1 Vegito, so it’s obvious he wouldn’t have done so against base Vegito either. That’s just who he is—stubborn and unwilling to admit defeat no matter how outclassed he was. This is why Buuhan choosing to fight Vegito instead of running away shouldn’t be taken as evidence they were on the same level. It’s also important to remember Elder Kai told Goku that the fusion’s resultant fighter wouldn’t even need to go Super Saiyan, let alone ultimate power, to handle their enemies. Vegito was, and has always been, in a completely different league from Buuhan.

and like i've said before, the only boo in my mind that makes sense for goku to speak about to others is the one that's still present and recognizable by them which is mr boo. it wouldn't make much sense for me or the characters around them for him to be speaking about that doesn't exist anymore and only he knows about. conversationally speaking, it's far lucklier he were speaking about mr boo and if he is then all pieces fit and connect together to make this seamless house of cards

tldr: using manga logic where vegito jumped straight to SSJ1 in the context of GT is an ill logic, it's clear by feats that base vegito was soberly superior to buuhan.

SS4 goku>=< SSJ1 vegito [50's times more powerful than base] > Golden ape goku (500 times more powerful) > SS3 kid goku (if dormant power unlocking worked properly) > super baby vegeta 2 > super baby vegeta 1 > buuhan > baby vegeta >= SS3 kid goku (goku might be stronger as an adult than BV if he can extract much more juice outta it as an adult)

in short, GT is a fucking mess

Could Vegetto have humiliated Boo the same way he did without transforming? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not questioning Base Vegetto > Boohan, I'm questioning Base Vegetto >>>>>>>>> Boohan.

Golden Ape should be much more than 500x base. Baby wrecked SSJ3 Goku and then got tossed around by Golden Ape. That's why I think 4,000x makes more sense.

[Shintoki]

oh boi, where do i even begin?

the comma stuff just a subtitle thing, yoe were reading way into it

goku in japanese said:
「お前みたいな強え奴は久しぶりだ！」
(Omae mitai na tsuyē yatsu wa hisashiburi da!)

which gets translated as "It's been a long time since I faced someone as strong as you!" that basically means baby vegeta > hirudegarn | janemba | kid buu since these are the ones he would have fought in the Toei's continuity

Yeah, I imagined so.

about the ''never felt ki like this'' part, people often bring up the "felt ki" line but forget that Goku had already used a similar phrasing before and excluded himself from that context. this was in the fusion reborn movie


This makes it nearly zero chance that he would include himself in a line of identical fashion (GT), especially, and let alone, when referencing a fusion involving himself. Arguing that Goku in GT for whatever reason applied a different mentality to that line would be just unsubstantiated, as there’s no evidence of substance to suggest a distinction between the two scenarios where goke use this type of statements to

Well in GT the statement does include Goku himself because Baby just beat his ass.

Before achieving Super Baby 1 (SB1), Baby Vegeta was already an even match for Goku and more even with Goku using Super Saiyan 3, as noted by Goku himself. he wasn't cornered by goku when fighting him and neither did he corner goku tho it's evidently clear that he didn't feel threatened by SSJ3 goku. once Baby reached the SB1 level, Goku commented that he had never felt a ki like this before. This suggests that SB1's power was beyond anything Goku had ever encountered or could compare to, meaning Baby Vegeta’s base form was still below this unprecedented threshold.so goku in SS3 couldn't have been above buuhan as neither were baby vegeta.

This is the source of heat and contention for a lot of people, as far as I know, because for many, it doesn’t make sense. After all the time-skip training, how could Goku not be significantly stronger than he was during the events of Movie 13? He would only need to be a couple of times more powerful than he was in that movie to surpass Buuhan. The takeaway, for many, is that Goku’s training only made him less than double the power he was in Movie 13 and to add oil to the fire, lots of people even argue that hirudegarn is stronger than buuhan because gotenks and super boo are around the same level and gotenks said that gohan wasn't too much stronger than him so interpret that as you might

so either movie 13 didn't occur in the GT verse due to being irreconcilable with its power level showings or there is some

In either case, it’s clear that using Movie 13 for GT is a can of worms, because that’s where a lot of people end up falling into this inescapable rabbit hole. The reason they slip into that rabbit hole is likely because they assume that the GT writers made Goku the same version as the one from the movies, without realizing that Koyama was in charge of the movie’s affairs, not the GT staff. This misregistration leads people to treat the two as one and the same. This is a core error in logic because the more logical scenario is that GT Goku is built off from the main story as the primary source and the movies are just nodded and without the movies, goku from the Buu arc was nowhere near comparable to super boo, Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, let alone buutenks or buuhan. so if you go by this notion, things check out and everything fits cuz it would explain why goku trained for more than a decade and yet still weaker than buuhan, it's cuz he did get exponentially more powerful just not to the extent that people think of him

About people who claim Buuhan was equal to base Vegito or even stronger than him (which is total cap), this idea seems to come from people who misapply manga logic to GT. In the manga, Vegito went straight to Super Saiyan 1, so they assume that means Buuhan is stronger than base Vegito in that context. But trying to use that same logic for GT isn’t just wrong—it’s straight-up misguided. GT follows the anime, not the manga, and forcing manga logic onto GT just creates a dead-end filled with absurd conclusions.

So Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks but weaker than Boohan? How does that make any sense? GT Base Goku is SSJ3 level. You go with that theory about Base Gotenks surpassing SSJ3 Goku in the Rosat?

Baby seemed to have a slight advantage over Goku, but the fight is too short. Either way, Goku's line to Baby sounds more like a generic "You're strong" (Or even already an admission of Baby being the strongest) than an implicit comparison to Boo. When someone was actually compared to Boo (Rild), the comparison was made pretty clear. Saying BV is compared to Boohan is confusing and redundant.

Even comparing base Vegito to Buuhan doesn’t hold up. Let me remind those who think this that base Vegito soberly overpowered and blasted Buuhan so hard that only the upper half of his body was left. And he did that without needing Kaioken or let alone SSJ1. When Vegito went Super Saiyan, it wasn’t because he needed to—it was part of his plan to push Buuhan into despair and trick him into absorbing him so he could save his friends and family. That’s the part such people always seem to forget or deliberately ignore.




From my perspective, Buuhan wasn’t on Vegito’s level at all from the get-go. The moment Vegito came into being, it was over. The only thing keeping Buuhan alive was his busted regeneration. Without it, he would’ve been killed outright then and there. It’s also important to note that Vegito could’ve killed him at any point he wanted, even in base, if that had been his goal—but it wasn’t, because his objective from the start was to save his family.

Buuhan refused to accept being hopeless and powerless, even against Super Saiyan 1 Vegito, so it’s obvious he wouldn’t have done so against base Vegito either. That’s just who he is—stubborn and unwilling to admit defeat no matter how outclassed he was. This is why Buuhan choosing to fight Vegito instead of running away shouldn’t be taken as evidence they were on the same level. It’s also important to remember Elder Kai told Goku that the fusion’s resultant fighter wouldn’t even need to go Super Saiyan, let alone ultimate power, to handle their enemies. Vegito was, and has always been, in a completely different league from Buuhan.

and like i've said before, the only boo in my mind that makes sense for goku to speak about to others is the one that's still present and recognizable by them which is mr boo. it wouldn't make much sense for me or the characters around them for him to be speaking about that doesn't exist anymore and only he knows about. conversationally speaking, it's far lucklier he were speaking about mr boo and if he is then all pieces fit and connect together to make this seamless house of cards

tldr: using manga logic where vegito jumped straight to SSJ1 in the context of GT is an ill logic, it's clear by feats that base vegito was soberly superior to buuhan.

SS4 goku>=< SSJ1 vegito [50's times more powerful than base] > Golden ape goku (500 times more powerful) > SS3 kid goku (if dormant power unlocking worked properly) > super baby vegeta 2 > super baby vegeta 1 > buuhan > baby vegeta >= SS3 kid goku (goku might be stronger as an adult than BV if he can extract much more juice outta it as an adult)

in short, GT is a fucking mess

Could Vegetto have humiliated Boo the same way he did without transforming? That's what I'm talking about. I'm not questioning Base Vegetto > Boohan, I'm questioning Base Vegetto >>>>>>>>> Boohan.

Golden Ape should be much more than 500x base. Baby wrecked SSJ3 Goku and then got tossed around by Golden Ape. That's why I think 4,000x makes more sense.

about golden ape, goku was supposed to unlock a dormant power when his tail was regrown which would have enabled him to be even more powerful than SB vegeta 2, this power presumebly got forcely awakened when goku transformed to a golden ape. so make of that what you will

as for vegito. definitely, just look at what he did to buuhan without even resorting kaioken or heavy hitters like final flash, and while toying with him to top it off. if vegito were intent on killing buuhan from the get go, he would have given him the janemba treatment even if he were in base, no transformation to SSJ needed. it's best to think of it this way, the gap between buuhan and base vegito was far wider than even raditz and goku in BOZ

So Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks but weaker than Boohan? How does that make any sense?

that's the problem which i was talking about earlier when trying to attribute the movie scaling/feats to GT goku, because by that same token, you could even argue that dragon fist SS3 goku > buuhan cuz of how hirudegarn bitch slapped gotenks and ultimate gohan. so by GT time, even base goku should be around or stronger than his boosagan SS3 self.

GT Base Goku is SSJ3 level. You go with that theory about Base Gotenks surpassing SSJ3 Goku in the Rosat?

don't subscribe to it since trunks said they would have fought boo to a standstill even after post-rosat and he'd have only had fat boo to benchmark from. so my takeway is that post rosat SSJ1 trunks =< SS3 goku
tho that's a discussion for another time

Baby seemed to have a slight advantage over Goku, but the fight is too short. Either way, Goku's line to Baby sounds more like a generic "You're strong" (Or even already an admission of Baby being the strongest) than an implicit comparison to Boo. When someone was actually compared to Boo (Rild), the comparison was made pretty clear. Saying BV is compared to Boohan is confusing and redundant.

depends on how you go about it, if you only apply buu to the equation and not janemba/hirudegarn then him being below buuhan in terms of power till he become SB1 fits in just fine, but if you include them then the whole thing becomes confusing and boggling to the mind.

Well in GT the statement does include Goku himself because Baby just beat his ass.

that's the thing tho with these kinds of lines being interpreted, the more you try to extrapolate from them the more of a mess you get

ust take Goku's other line to Baby Vegeta: "It's been a long time since I fought someone as strong as you." If it's taken literally, then it can either mean that Goku fought someone equally strong in the past—but if so, then who? It couldn't be Kid Buu, so could it be Hirudegarn? Does that mean Baby Vegeta is comparable to Hirudegarn? But this would mean that baby is too weak if interpreted literally that way? Or is it simply a general statement by Goku, expressing that it's been a while since he fought someone he considers strong? Goku using himself as a benchmark excludes the likes of Buuhan and Vegito from this equation. However, if you add Hirudegarn into the mix, it muddies the waters into a swamp because Goku—even in Wrath of the Dragon, pre-End of Z—could be argued be stronger than Buuhan.

That's why I don't buy that Goku was using a different mindset for that benchmarking, just because he was beaten. We already have a precedent for how Goku uses that particular method of benchmarking. The statement "never felt ki" at best suggests that he's comparing his current foe's ki to that of all the previous opponents he's faced. So, Buuhan or Hirudegarn is as far as you can go with that, even though grouping those two together is like mixing oil and water.

so GT without movies scaling:
SS4 goku >=< SS1 vegito >>>> super baby > buuhan > base baby >= SS3 kid goku
the gap between buuhan and vegito in SSJ1 can thereby be compared to the same gap between SS4 goku and baby vegeta/SBV1

and GT with movies scaling:
if vegito in base is no-more 4 times stronger than buuhan
SBV1 >>> baby vegeta >= SS3 goku [400x times powerup] >> SSJ1 vegito >> base GT goku (kaioken included) > wrath of the dragon goku >= buuhan/hirudegarn.

if he is (for example more than 6 times as an example)
SBV1 > SSJ1 vegito > SS3 goku kid goku

so depends how wide the gap between base vegito and buuhan is for you. either way, take the potion (or poison, hhhhhh) that's up your alley and see which one u like, hhhhhhh

i personally tend to go by the notion that GT has its own iterations of the movies characters and the koyama-movies are not appliable for GT which helps us avoid scale-stacking

[Korru]

Yes, I go believe GT Goku and GT Vegeta is stronger than their dBs counterparts

[p-hyvo]

goku trained with uub nonstop for striaght 5 years. thats insane amount of training. that was on top all the training he did prior to that after the buu saga. so,even if we assume gt is not the same cannon with super i think goku and vegeta might be way stronger in gt then in super including their god forms. its just that they had way way more time to train. and no i dont really think goku can beat beerus if he take it seriously and fight with full power, even after the TOP and even after the manga events. i think if beerus wanted he would still wipe the floor with goku.

baby was only stronger then goku because it was vegeta's body + all the power he absorbed from the others, vegeta probably trained as much as goku. vegeta base and ssj forms probably are way stronger then super's god forms.

super 17 is a combination of a strong 17 who trained for 22 years (7 from cell to buu saga,10 from buu saga to end of Z, 5 from end of Z to gt) and a 17 who was made by myu and gero who was probably measured with lastet goku power level in mind so no wonder hes so strong.

syn shenron is strength is more of a "magical cause" because of the imporance and scale of the wish he was born from. so that make sense. kinda.

now, if we drop fusion into the mix, i think there is no doubt that ssj4 gogeta is FAR FAR stronger then either gogeta blue OR vegito blue. with all the god ki praise and everything. i still think long training is more effective then just having different kind of ki and a fusion between such strong ssj4's will wipe the floor with any super character, minus maybe the gods of destruction or angels

In base? Yeah sure. I've never bought the god absorbed in base thing in DBS: the anime treats it too incoherently for it to Make sense and it isn't even a thing in the manga. From what concerns me, base ToP Goku is like fat Buu tier

In general? Absolutely not. Bog's SSG is already enough to deal with everything from gt excluding Gogeta

[Hugo Boss]

Super’s powerscaling has been recontextualized so many times that it’s hard to take any one as absolute. Base Goku in Super has fluctuated a lot, and while I’d place him somewhere in the upper SS1-tier from Z, GT’s Base Goku should be in the lower SS3-tier. That alone would make GT’s base forms much stronger.

That said, I don’t think Super’s transformations follow a strict linear scaling either. Even SSGSSEvo Vegeta didn’t fight as well against Beerus as SSG Goku did in BoG, and we now have Black Freeza completely outclassing UI Goku and UE Vegeta while still being implied to be weaker than Beerus.

Also, movie/TV anime versions of Goku and Vegeta seem way stronger than their manga counterparts. If anything, Silver UI Goku in the Super Hero manga arc is about equal to BoG’s SSG Goku in the film. The strongest version of Goku in Super would be his Silver UI form in the TV anime, where he seemingly surpassed Beerus. So, depending on what version of Super you’re using, the comparisons with GT change quite a bit.

[Mister Ape]

No way. I am not saying Base form Base Cabba could beat SSJ4 Gogeta, but he would beat at least pre Surpassed Limits SSJ4 Goku. I even believe SSJ or SSJ2 Base Cabba may be enough to beat SSJ4 Gogeta ironically, and SSJ Caulifla would stomp him.

[Hugo Boss]

Okay, I get that Super introduced some confusing power scaling, but saying Base Cabba (or even his SS1/SS2 versions) could beat SS4 Goku or SS4 Gogeta doesn’t hold up when you really break it down, even from a narrative logic standpoint.

Let’s look at who Cabba is: he’s a young, unseasoned Saiyan soldier from Universe 6 with solid potential, but no real history of insane battles or life-or-death stakes. He’s talented, sure, but he’s not Broly or Gohan in terms of rapid-growth freakishness. His biggest feat in the U6 Tournament was pushing Vegeta to go SS1. This is before Vegeta even used God ki.

Now ask yourself: Could SS1 Vegeta alone beat Majin Boo? Because SS1 Vegeta couldn’t even properly defeat Magetta, who was someone far below fusion-tier characters at that point in Super. Not to mention Magetta belongs to a species that exists in Universe 7 as well, so he is not all that special. Majin Boo would smoke him.

So, how does that Cabba compare to someone like SS4 Goku or Gogeta? SS4 Goku in GT is someone who by that point has gone toe-to-toe with beings far surpassing Majin Boo. SS4 Gogeta is in another league entirely. He completely humiliated Omega Shenron, a villain stronger than anything prior in GT, and Gogeta clowned him.

So the idea that Cabba with SS1 or SS2 would beat SS4 Gogeta, a fusion of the two most battle-hardened, godlike Saiyans, in a transformation that multiplies post-Z power far beyond Boo arc, is just not grounded in any consistent tiering.

At best, SS1 Cabba sits in a tier around Daima regular SS1 level, maybe slightly above if you scale Super generously. But SS4 Goku is at least a Super Vegetto level fighter or higher, and SS4 Gogeta is at a tier even beyond that.

The only way to justify Cabba stomping SS4 characters is to believe that base Saiyans post-RoF are stronger than even top-tier Z fusions, which throws out all internal logic of Super’s own power creep resets (like Goku struggling against early Frost).

[SupremeKai25]

Okay, I get that Super introduced some confusing power scaling, but saying Base Cabba (or even his SS1/SS2 versions) could beat SS4 Goku or SS4 Gogeta doesn’t hold up when you really break it down, even from a narrative logic standpoint.

Let’s look at who Cabba is: he’s a young, unseasoned Saiyan soldier from Universe 6 with solid potential, but no real history of insane battles or life-or-death stakes. He’s talented, sure, but he’s not Broly or Gohan in terms of rapid-growth freakishness. His biggest feat in the U6 Tournament was pushing Vegeta to go SS1. This is before Vegeta even used God ki.

Now ask yourself: Could SS1 Vegeta alone beat Majin Boo? Because SS1 Vegeta couldn’t even properly defeat Magetta, who was someone far below fusion-tier characters at that point in Super. Not to mention Magetta belongs to a species that exists in Universe 7 as well, so he is not all that special. Majin Boo would smoke him.

So, how does that Cabba compare to someone like SS4 Goku or Gogeta? SS4 Goku in GT is someone who by that point has gone toe-to-toe with beings far surpassing Majin Boo. SS4 Gogeta is in another league entirely. He completely humiliated Omega Shenron, a villain stronger than anything prior in GT, and Gogeta clowned him.

So the idea that Cabba with SS1 or SS2 would beat SS4 Gogeta, a fusion of the two most battle-hardened, godlike Saiyans, in a transformation that multiplies post-Z power far beyond Boo arc, is just not grounded in any consistent tiering.

At best, SS1 Cabba sits in a tier around Daima regular SS1 level, maybe slightly above if you scale Super generously. But SS4 Goku is at least a Super Vegetto level fighter or higher, and SS4 Gogeta is at a tier even beyond that.

The only way to justify Cabba stomping SS4 characters is to believe that base Saiyans post-RoF are stronger than even top-tier Z fusions, which throws out all internal logic of Super’s own power creep resets (like Goku struggling against early Frost).

It's Dragon Ball. It's never been consistent and it's never been logical. A 10 years old kid who's never had a taste of battle before would slaughter Namek saga Freeza (the Emperor of the Universe) just because his dad was in Super Saiyan form when he conceived him or whatever.

There is this assumption that the U6 Saiyans are not freaks of nature, even though the evidence points to the exact opposite, with Caulifla and Kale reaching SSB level in their Fused form just after a few minutes of fighting Goku.

Cabba being above Super Vegito is hardly far-fetched for Dragon Ball standards.

[Hugo Boss]

I get the idea you're going for, that Dragon Ball has always played fast and loose with consistency, but comparing Cabba to Goten and Kefla's growth to Cabba's is kind of a false equivalence. Dragon Ball has inconsistencies, but it still follows a hierarchy of narrative logic, especially when it comes to power progression.

When you mention Goten (the 10-year-old kid or rather 7-year-old), you're pointing out that he was stronger than many old villains like Freeza, but the key detail is context. Goten is the son of the strongest Saiyan alive at the time, a hybrid Saiyan (which Toriyama himself said have more potential than pure-bloods), and was born into a post-Cell peaceful world where Super Saiyan was the norm. Even then, he didn’t casually destroy fusion-level characters. He was only stronger than Freeza because the world had moved so far past Namek by then and he was a Super Saiyan.

You're absolutely right that Caulifla and Kale showed incredible potential, probably the most rapid growth we've ever seen in Saiyans besides Gohan or Broly. But fusion dramatically multiplies the power of both users. So SS1 Kefla ≈ Blue Goku doesn’t mean Caulifla and Kale individually were near that level, let alone Cabba, who didn’t participate in that fight.

Now compare that to Cabba: he’s not a hybrid, not born of god-tier parents, and never showed mutant-level growth speed. Blue Vegeta defeats him without breaking a sweat. That Cabba is nowhere near Boo-level, much less fusion-level, and certainly not above SS4 Gogeta.

Your logic is: "If Goten can defeat Freeza and Kefla reaches Blue-tier levels of power, then Cabba can defeat Vegetto". But that misses too many steps in between. Goten didn’t jump from Freeza-tier to fusion-tier instantly. Also, Caulifla doesn't jump above fusion-tier without, well, fusing. The Z cast spent years climbing that ladder. Cabba and Caulifla? They could reach such levels much quickier if the story demands, but they're at most halfway up, and nothing in Super gives us a reason to believe otherwise.

Also, Dragon Ball Super, for all its messy writing, still frames fusions and god forms as leagues beyond characters like Cabba and Caulifla. If Base or SS1 Cabba were stronger than Vegetto, he would’ve been framed as such a threat, not a rookie who needed Vegeta to yell at him to go Super Saiyan.

So yes, Dragon Ball isn't airtight, but it’s not completely random either. There's a difference between narrative flexibility and outright ignoring established character tiers, experience, and feats. Saying Cabba or Caulifa > SS4 Gogeta or SS1 Vegetto requires tossing out everything we’ve seen about how this universe operates. U6 Saiyans have high potential, but potential ≠ feats, and fusion scaling ≠ base scaling.

[Koitsukai]

Saying DB has never been consistent isn’t a valid excuse to throw out all internal logic, that's fallacious. Sure, power scaling has been like an EKG, but each arc and continuity builds a relative structure. The presence of inconsistencies doesn’t mean anything goes.

No one in DB is born that powerful without training or under extreme conditions (Gohan included). The 10 year olds born to SS fathers, to surpass Freeza still needed to unlock SS, and still needed to be trained to achieve that power.
It is also not illogical if it's explained, their parents's DNA got enhanced and so were their offsprings, who were already said to be stronger than saiyans several arcs ago. Basically, evolution.

Kefla was a special case that even Goku called out as insane. Caulifla is a prodigy, and we cannot overlook that Kefla is half fucking U6 Broly. People like to pretend Kale is U6 Nappa or some run of the mill U6 saiyan, well she is not, she is Broly. She holds the "I can be as strong as the moment requires me to be" gold card. And these two had to fuse and turn SS to accomplish anything.

We can’t take Kefla or Kale as baseline and then argue Cabba is somehow above Vegito or SS4 Gogeta, fusions of elite warriors with decades of experience. If we accept that Cabba > SS4 Gogeta just because “DB is illogical,” then power scaling matters no more.

And even with the most at-face-value, anti-GT, pro-DBS scaling, Cabba being as strong as a Vegeta that would be 50x stronger than BoG SSG, would only make him as strong as GT SS-SS2 Gogeta. Still worlds below SS4 Gogeta.

[SupremeKai25]

Nothing about Cabba being on par with Super Vegito is "Illogical". No argument has been presented yet on how it's illogical.

Of all the weird and far-fetched things that happened in Dragon Ball, why can you not believe that Cabba is stronger than a fusion from 3 story arcs ago?

Cabba is a Saiyan elite warrior from an entirely different universe where the Saiyans thrived, flourished, prospered, and evolved, unlike the U7 Saiyans who were wiped out. In fact, it makes perfect sense for him to be a prodigy and exceptionally strong. Elite warrior, from a Saiyan civilisation that flourished and prospered for decades.

I honestly wonder if Cabba would be more valued as a warrior and a fighter if he looked like a dudebro like the DBZ characters. How much of this incredulity surrounding Cabba's power level is indirectly or even subconsciously influenced by his scrawny design?

EDIT- Either way, Super Goku and Vegeta are quite clearly stronger than their GT counterparts, since Beerus using 0.00001% power at this point and Initial SSG Goku before any training whatsoever were shaking the universe just by fighting.

[Hugo Boss]

Let’s clarify a few things.

Bringing up Cabba’s build as a reason people don’t take him seriously ignores the actual issue: lack of demonstrated feats or scaling that place him in a fusion or god-tier class. Gohan didn’t have a musclebound design either, yet the entire fandom accepts that Kid Gohan could beat Perfect Cell, because his feats support that. Same for Gotenks or Kid Boo. We judge based on what the story shows, not physique. Nobody’s dismissing Cabba because he’s “scrawny.” We’re dismissing the idea that he’s above fusion-tier because nothing, narratively or mechanically, supports that claim. Vegeta didn’t even need Blue to beat him if we are being honest here. You can’t have Cabba surpass Vegetto when SS1 Vegeta was more than enough to handle him.

Also, being a “Saiyan Elite” doesn’t amount towards anything. Even within his own universe, he’s the least impressive of the three main U6 Saiyans we meet. Caulifla and Kale showed freakish growth, Cabba didn’t. Vegeta was an elite too in U7, and we saw how Goku, Gohan and Broly surpassed him. If anything, Cabba’s performance in the U6 tournament, where Vegeta dominated him, shows he was nowhere near the levels of Z fusions, much less post-GT or God-tier characters.

And finally, later in Super, Base Goku struggles with fighters like Roshi and even Krillin in sparring sessions, who should be below fusion-tier. If you truly believes Cabba can be on par with Vegetto, you’d have to argue that Roshi and Krillin could be as well, which opens a whole can of contradictory scaling that even the anime doesn’t suggest.

[super michael]

Okay, I get that Super introduced some confusing power scaling, but saying Base Cabba (or even his SS1/SS2 versions) could beat SS4 Goku or SS4 Gogeta doesn’t hold up when you really break it down, even from a narrative logic standpoint.

Let’s look at who Cabba is: he’s a young, unseasoned Saiyan soldier from Universe 6 with solid potential, but no real history of insane battles or life-or-death stakes. He’s talented, sure, but he’s not Broly or Gohan in terms of rapid-growth freakishness. His biggest feat in the U6 Tournament was pushing Vegeta to go SS1. This is before Vegeta even used God ki.

Now ask yourself: Could SS1 Vegeta alone beat Majin Boo? Because SS1 Vegeta couldn’t even properly defeat Magetta, who was someone far below fusion-tier characters at that point in Super. Not to mention Magetta belongs to a species that exists in Universe 7 as well, so he is not all that special. Majin Boo would smoke him.

So, how does that Cabba compare to someone like SS4 Goku or Gogeta? SS4 Goku in GT is someone who by that point has gone toe-to-toe with beings far surpassing Majin Boo. SS4 Gogeta is in another league entirely. He completely humiliated Omega Shenron, a villain stronger than anything prior in GT, and Gogeta clowned him.

So the idea that Cabba with SS1 or SS2 would beat SS4 Gogeta, a fusion of the two most battle-hardened, godlike Saiyans, in a transformation that multiplies post-Z power far beyond Boo arc, is just not grounded in any consistent tiering.

At best, SS1 Cabba sits in a tier around Daima regular SS1 level, maybe slightly above if you scale Super generously. But SS4 Goku is at least a Super Vegetto level fighter or higher, and SS4 Gogeta is at a tier even beyond that.

The only way to justify Cabba stomping SS4 characters is to believe that base Saiyans post-RoF are stronger than even top-tier Z fusions, which throws out all internal logic of Super’s own power creep resets (like Goku struggling against early Frost).

It's Dragon Ball. It's never been consistent and it's never been logical. A 10 years old kid who's never had a taste of battle before would slaughter Namek saga Freeza (the Emperor of the Universe) just because his dad was in Super Saiyan form when he conceived him or whatever.

There is this assumption that the U6 Saiyans are not freaks of nature, even though the evidence points to the exact opposite, with Caulifla and Kale reaching SSB level in their Fused form just after a few minutes of fighting Goku.

Cabba being above Super Vegito is hardly far-fetched for Dragon Ball standards.

Goten was 7 years old, while Trunks was 8 years old in the Buu Saga. Both of them were born from Super Saiyan parents.
In universe we are told it is possible for Saiyans to be born with a very high power level and hybrid has more potential than a pure blooded Saiyan. So there is some foundation to how they are powerful.

It was mentioned that Trunks was training with Vegeta most of the time, which is stated by Bulma. We see all sweating, indicating that he trains hard. He also spars with Goten.
Goten on the other hand trained with Chi Chi, someone that managed to impress Master Roshi. Goten trained with Trunks and later on with Gohan.
Both Goten and Trunks learns the fusion dance from Goku and Piccolo and then later on trains in the ROSAT, which is a great place to get strong. It has high gravity and the environment and air can change.

As for Cabba we don't hear that he did extraordinary training, it also doesn't help that Cabba doesn't have even a little bit of muscles. Even when he transform, he still doesn't have muscles at all.

Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Vegeta they did extraordinary training, training that are incredibly hard. They had to come up with ideas, with how to make their training efficient. Future Trunks and Gohan inexperience did see the problem with SSJ Grade 3, but the experienced fighters like Vegeta and Goku could see the problem. Goku shared his wisdom with Gohan and focused on mastering their SSJ, while Vegeta and Future Trunks didn't share their wisdom and focused on SSJ Grade 2.

[The Bastard.]

Nothing about Cabba being on par with Super Vegito is "Illogical". No argument has been presented yet on how it's illogical.

Of all the weird and far-fetched things that happened in Dragon Ball, why can you not believe that Cabba is stronger than a fusion from 3 story arcs ago?

Cabba is a Saiyan elite warrior from an entirely different universe where the Saiyans thrived, flourished, prospered, and evolved, unlike the U7 Saiyans who were wiped out. In fact, it makes perfect sense for him to be a prodigy and exceptionally strong. Elite warrior, from a Saiyan civilisation that flourished and prospered for decades.

I honestly wonder if Cabba would be more valued as a warrior and a fighter if he looked like a dudebro like the DBZ characters. How much of this incredulity surrounding Cabba's power level is indirectly or even subconsciously influenced by his scrawny design?

EDIT- Either way, Super Goku and Vegeta are quite clearly stronger than their GT counterparts, since Beerus using 0.00001% power at this point and Initial SSG Goku before any training whatsoever were shaking the universe just by fighting.

I don't think I agree with Cabba being as strong as Vegito because he could barely squared up to Vegeta initially.

But for me it's pretty clear that Super Vegeta and Goku are far and away above their GT counterparts, of all the villains most felt like pushovers that just waited for Goku to become furry than anything else, it's been a loooong time since I've seen GT but the dragons were pushovers and omega shenron was like a buu repeat in Wich they couldn't beat buu before fusion and when they fuse they stomp him.