Dragon Ball Refuses To Move Forward

[SupremeKai25]

I have made my point. You're the only one who brought up Zamasu, who's got nothing to do with my point.

The events of Super don't alter the original ending in any major way, and in fact Super only builds up the original ending. The narrative helmed by Toriyama remains tethered to the 1995 ending.

Midquel =/= Sequel

You're against new stories set after the original ending under some nonsensical reasoning

If you think everything I said so far is nonsensical, then we can stop discussing here. We will not see eye to eye. Have a good day.

[super michael]

If there is no problem in DBS being a midquel between the Buu Saga and EOZ, then there is no problem with a midquel between EOZ and GT.
There should be no problem in Dragon Ball going beyond End of GT.

GT is a time line that the Z fighters never met Beerus.
Daima is a time line Goku and Vegeta gain new transformation by training alone and experience going to the Demon World.
DBS is a time line that the Z fighters meets Beerus and Whis.
Future Trunks time line is a time line which Goku dies from the virus and the cyborgs kills the Z fighters.

[JulieYBM]

Of course it’s important to point out the differences of the anime and the manga. The manga absolutely goes all in on “Fuck Naruto. All my homies hate Naruto.” While with yhe anime, the producers clearly did not want to commit to this so they went “Naruto 2.0”.

I don't entirely know about that. My recollection of the anime—which I haven't been able to find the time to watch past Episode #170 several years back now—is that the series is still largely focused on the new cast. Naruto gets one of two cool moments in the anime-original arcs to shine, but when it comes time to adapt his major defeats from the comic, the series does so. Thematically, the Boruto anime also follows the general franchise drive towards stories about the conflict between older generations and how their mistakes harm the new generation in the present, too, which I think is what made it so creatively successful, despite a very weak lead in Boruto himself.

The biggest issue I have with Boruto is that it doesn't feel like it belongs in the same universe as Naruto anymore; they went too far away from what made that series what it was. Kaguya Otsutsuki was by far the weakest and most out of place part of the original's final arc, and now we have an entire series revolving around her people. Like Dragon Ball before it, Naruto also should have ended once Kishimoto and Studio Pierrot wrapped up work on the original Naruto story.

Naruto was a story about how generational trauma continues to harm the youth and the struggle to overcome and repair that damage. In that respect, Boruto continued that theme and also captures the disconnect that comes with changing times. Dragon Ball Super and Dragon Ball Daima have remained mostly content—on an executive-level, at least—to not 'age'. Boruto's charm is that is does age in comparison to the original series. Boruto feels weird and feels like a different generation. I was a teenager during the original series' beginning and now that I'm twenty years past that, I can look at today's teenagers and feel that gulf, even if similarities remain. I think every adult eventually understands that difference, whether they want to acknowledge and accept it or not. Distilling that disconnect down into one's comic is honestly really cool, given this is a JUMP comic of all things.

Putting aside the coolness factor of the fight itself, it's honestly just really awesome having that feeling of being denied nostalgia into a major fight in a major series.

Naruto did end and the battle with Jigen drives this home like no other.

[Grimlock]

If you think everything I said so far is nonsensical, then we can stop discussing here. We will not see eye to eye. Have a good day.

We should be seeing eye to eye, though. My reasons for wanting Dragon Ball to move forward are sane and understandable. New stories, new content, characters aging up, changing... Everything Dragon Ball did since 1984. So you do and can see where I'm coming from, right? Why are you against all of that? Don't you think it's nonsensical to not want Dragon Ball to move forward if we must have to get new content like we currently are?

[SupremeKai25]

If you think everything I said so far is nonsensical, then we can stop discussing here. We will not see eye to eye. Have a good day.

We should be seeing eye to eye, though. My reasons for wanting Dragon Ball to move forward are sane and understandable. New stories, new content, characters aging up, changing... Everything Dragon Ball did since 1984. So you do and can see where I'm coming from, right? Why are you against all of that? Why would you not want that? Don't you think it's nonsensical to not want Dragon Ball to move forward if we must have to get new content like we currently are?

I like the ending of Dragon Ball Z. I think that kind of open ending, hinting at new adventures Goku and the boy will experience, without directly showing them, is a fantastic send-off to the story of Dragon Ball. There will always be a new adventure to look forward to, new stories to tell... but they are beyond the scope of OUR story. Heartwarming, adventurous, and whimsical, exactly as Dragon Ball should be.

I don't want Dragon Ball Super to go beyond that ending because I like that ending. And I do not believe Super alters that ending in any significant way. Yes, Goku and Uub now have God ki, but I don't see that as a deal-breaker: My appreciation and my understanding of that ending remains unchanged.

new content

Since I like the ending of DBZ so much, I want new content to happen BEFORE the ending, so that the original ending is not invalidated. In my mind, Dragon Ball Super, and the revival of Dragon Ball as a whole, should culminate with Goku leaving with Uub - exactly as it was in the original.

This is my point. And I do not see it as nonsensical.

I love the ending of Dragon Ball Z. I think it's infinitely superior to that melodramatic and sappy ending of GT. Quite clearly this must be a minority position online.

[PrinceVegetto]

If you think everything I said so far is nonsensical, then we can stop discussing here. We will not see eye to eye. Have a good day.

We should be seeing eye to eye, though. My reasons for wanting Dragon Ball to move forward are sane and understandable. New stories, new content, characters aging up, changing... Everything Dragon Ball did since 1984. So you do and can see where I'm coming from, right? Why are you against all of that? Why would you not want that? Don't you think it's nonsensical to not want Dragon Ball to move forward if we must have to get new content like we currently are?

I like the ending of Dragon Ball Z. I think that kind of open ending, hinting at new adventures Goku and the boy will experience, without directly showing them, is a fantastic send-off to the story of Dragon Ball. There will always be a new adventure to look forward to, new stories to tell... but they are beyond the scope of OUR story. Heartwarming, adventurous, and whimsical, exactly as Dragon Ball should be.

I don't want Dragon Ball Super to go beyond that ending because I like that ending. And I do not believe Super alters that ending in any significant way. Yes, Goku and Uub now have God ki, but I don't see that as a deal-breaker: My appreciation and my understanding of that ending remains unchanged.

new content

Since I like the ending of DBZ so much, I want new content to happen BEFORE the ending, so that the original ending is not invalidated. In my mind, Dragon Ball Super, and the revival of Dragon Ball as a whole, should culminate with Goku leaving with Uub - exactly as it was in the original.

This is my point. And I do not see it as nonsensical.

I love the ending of Dragon Ball Z. I think it's infinitely superior to that melodramatic and sappy ending of GT. Quite clearly this must be a minority position online.

Honestly, I think many people enjoy the ending of DBZ with Goku flying off with Uub.

The main issue most feel is that there are no stakes in Super given the fact it takes place during the 10-year gap before EoZ, where we already know all the characters are safe.

[BernardoCairo]

To be honest, I never really cared much about the story taking place during the ten year gap between the defeat of Boo and the End of Z. I actually think placing Battle of Gods within that period was a great idea. While the timeline has become a bit absurd since then, I do not really mind. The lack of stakes feels less like a result of its placement in the timeline and more like a broader "issue" with Super as a whole.

Shorter arcs, combined with an abundance of slice of life moments and city based scenes, make the story feel less grand in scale. On top of that, the arcs rarely connect to one another in a meaningful way, which makes the series fundamentally different from the original manga. In Z, Goku faced only four major adversaries, all of whom remain highly memorable to this day. In Super, the characters face nearly ten different opponents in a much shorter span of time, which naturally dilutes their impact.

That said, many of these issues improve in the second half of the series, starting with the Tournament of Power, which marked a noticeable shift in direction for Super.

I love Super's humor, though.

[JulieYBM]

The length of the arcs really is not a detriment to them. The manga arcs—both within the comic itself and in their television animation adaptions—were 'long', but that is not what made them good. I wouldn't even particularly describe their narrative as 'grand', because their density was less about meaning for the characters and towards themes and more about just throwing everything Toriyama could think up at the wall and seeing what stuck. The weaknesses of Dragon Ball Super's arcs aren't their relative-length—although, I would offer that the Universe Six and Future Trunks arcs are both three-times as long as they should be in the animated series—but their stories not requiring upwards of twenty episodes to tell succicintly and memorably. Whle the Tournament of Power starts out strong in how it sets up its running character arcs, it eventually begins to spin its wheels because it doesn't strengthen the fight scenes with more character beats for all the numerous characters involved in the tournament. Relying on action to keep entertainment value high doesn't work when the production of the series is constantly running on fumes, never able to get ahead, and having relatively no skilled animators on hand to produce dense, cool action animation.

[The Dark Knight]

The lack of stakes feels less like a result of its placement in the timeline and more like a broader "issue" with Super as a whole.

Although I agree with the points you bring up, I still believe the placement plays a major role in the lack of stakes. We know everything will be fine thanks to the end of Z, so how can you have any real stakes when you know where all the characters eventually end up ? It's one thing to set standalone projects within the ten-year period, like Daima, but a long running series like Super that's (as of now) made up of 9 arcs ? That should have been set after end of Z, at least starting with Resurrection F when they knew the franchise would be back for the long run.

[JulieYBM]

The lack of stakes feels less like a result of its placement in the timeline and more like a broader "issue" with Super as a whole.

Although I agree with the points you bring up, I still believe the placement plays a major role in the lack of stakes. We know everything will be fine thanks to the end of Z, so how can you have any real stakes when you know where all the characters eventually end up ? It's one thing to set standalone projects within the ten-year period, like Daima, but a long running series like Super that's (as of now) made up of 9 arcs ? That should have been set after end of Z, at least starting with Resurrection F when they knew the franchise would be back for the long run.

You change what kind of stakes you go for. There aren't any stakes as there is, because the Dragon Balls always allow for the characters to come back from the dead. What's necessary is writing character arcs that change Gokuu and his core group of friends in relatable ways, while giving the bigger stories to the new characters. Dragon Ball Super doesn't do either of those things with great consistency because it's bought into a way of thinking about how to write for children that is toxic to creativity. The closest Super gets to writing enticing character arcs is with Zamasu and the newer characters in the Tournament of Power arc. Arguably, Merus, too, but I also don't remember the Moro and Granola arcs too well to speak on them.

[BernardoCairo]

The length of the arcs really is not a detriment to them.

I agree with you, but it is hard to deny that the original arcs left more room for the story to breathe, which made each villain more memorable. Toriyama tried a lot of different ideas, but the overall narrative still feels complete and structured, with a clear beginning, middle, and end once everything is set and done. With Super, the manga even skips large parts of the story, so it does not feel complete on its own.
The stories are not just bigger in scale, they are more tightly connected and more detailed. The transition from Vegeta to Namek, for example, is something Super never really managed to replicate. Each arc builds naturally on what came before instead of feeling like a reset.
If the Red Ribbon Army arc were written today, for example, it would likely be over much faster, and we would lose on the entire hierarchy of the army, which is one of the most interesting parts of that story.
The Moro arc was a big improvement in this area, at least in my opinion.

Although I agree with the points you bring up, I still believe the placement plays a major role in the lack of stakes. We know everything will be fine thanks to the end of Z, so how can you have any real stakes when you know where all the characters eventually end up ?

As Julie said, the Dragon Balls already remove some of the tension, and I never really had a problem with that. I think you can create stakes in ways other than just hiding whether the characters will survive. That said, not having access to the Dragon Balls for a while did help the Saiyajin and Freeza arcs quite a bit, and I cannot deny that.

[The Dark Knight]

You change what kind of stakes you go for. There aren't any stakes as there is, because the Dragon Balls always allow for the characters to come back from the dead.

This is true, but we never knew how it would be pulled off, or if doing so would result in other unforeseen events. When Piccolo and everyone were brought back thanks to the trip to Namek, it resulted in Goku being "lost" in space for an entire year, which lead directly into an arc with the biggest plot twist (time travel) the series had ever seen. If a character dies in Super, we know they'll be back, and that everything will be back to normal because we already know how it all ends thanks to EOZ. Every story in Super starts and ends with the status quo exactly the same, while stories like the Saiyan and Cell arcs end with vastly different status quo.

What's necessary is writing character arcs that change Gokuu and his core group of friends in relatable ways, while giving the bigger stories to the new characters. Dragon Ball Super doesn't do either of those things with great consistency because it's bought into a way of thinking about how to write for children that is toxic to creativity.

The problem is that you can only change a character so much when the ending is already set in stone. Battle of Gods and the Moro arc did provide good character development for Goku and especially Vegeta, but it was more of a re-enforcement of what was already there, rather than a major change in the status quo. Vegeta put his pride aside (Battle of Gods) and was regretful of his past actions (Moro arc), both of which were good character moments for him, but both were also explored in the Buu arc. If the story was set after the end of Z, we could go a step further with his development and explore the consequences that his actions as Majin Vegeta had on everyone; maybe resulting in a civil war between characters who are willing to look the other way (Goku, Krillin, Roshi, etc...) and characters who put their foot down and push for him to leave the planet (Piccolo, Tien, Dende, etc...). This can result in relationships between the characters being permanently broken. This could be a door to providing Gohan and Goten with some interesting developments, as it would put them right in the middle of what their father and friends support.

[sangofe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXb7Xhdl9hE

I fully agree with all his points.

OG Dragon Ball (1986) getting the Kai treatment or being remade would be infinitely better of a 40th anniversary celebration than Super

What does a remake of DB has to do with moving forward? That's rather moving backwards.

By 'moving forward,' I’m not talking about the timeline in this context, I’m talking about the franchise’s refusal to invest in high-quality, ground-up productions.

Currently, Dragon Ball is stuck in a cycle of 'recycling' whether it’s resurrecting old villains (Freeza, Broly, Cell) or 'remaking' Super by simply slapping a new coat of paint on old footage.

But those stories have already been told. To me, that is moving backwards.

[JulieYBM]

I agree with you, but it is hard to deny that the original arcs left more room for the story to breathe, which made each villain more memorable. Toriyama tried a lot of different ideas, but the overall narrative still feels complete and structured, with a clear beginning, middle, and end once everything is set and done. With Super, the manga even skips large parts of the story, so it does not feel complete on its own.
The stories are not just bigger in scale, they are more tightly connected and more detailed. The transition from Vegeta to Namek, for example, is something Super never really managed to replicate. Each arc builds naturally on what came before instead of feeling like a reset.
If the Red Ribbon Army arc were written today, for example, it would likely be over much faster, and we would lose on the entire hierarchy of the army, which is one of the most interesting parts of that story.
The Moro arc was a big improvement in this area, at least in my opinion.

None of these things have anything to do with the length, though, which is my point. You don't need one hundred comic chapters or television episodes to create a good, exciting story that is both character and action-driven. I don't even disagree about the transition issues, if I were in charge, every arc of Super would build on the other like a serial storyline with character arcs carrying over and building on each other. That doesn't mean the Universe Six and Future Trunks arcs need to be more than 6-7 episodes each, though.

The problem is that you can only change a character so much when the ending is already set in stone. Battle of Gods and the Moro arc did provide good character development for Goku and especially Vegeta, but it was more of a re-enforcement of what was already there, rather than a major change in the status quo. Vegeta put his pride aside (Battle of Gods) and was regretful of his past actions (Moro arc), both of which were good character moments for him, but both were also explored in the Buu arc. If the story was set after the end of Z, we could go a step further with his development and explore the consequences that his actions as Majin Vegeta had on everyone; maybe resulting in a civil war between characters who are willing to look the other way (Goku, Krillin, Roshi, etc...) and characters who put their foot down and push for him to leave the planet (Piccolo, Tien, Dende, etc...). This can result in relationships between the characters being permanently broken. This could be a door to providing Gohan and Goten with some interesting developments, as it would put them right in the middle of what their father and friends support.

We barely know anything about these characters, especially as they are ten years after the battle with Majin Buu. There's plenty of room to actually flesh them out and make them nuanced and plenty of room to throw both internal and external challenges their way.

[super michael]

Dragon Ball Super remake would help to be on a time slot that has less restriction with blood and violence, then they won't have to tone it down like the original Dragon Ball Super.

[MasenkoHA]

I don't think it's that hard to understand. When I was a kid, while Toonami was still on Namek, I would see random teases for the Cell arc in the opening and Boo arc merch at my local comic shop. Those always had me so curious, because they looked and felt so different from the story where I was at. So, after DBZ ended, I definitely wanted to see the world and characters continue to evolve. I still don't actually know why I never bothered prioritizing watching GT when it was on TV, but I did get the tape that had Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta, so I had a bit of a taste. But even then, what would happen after that? I ended up cooking up my own bullshit stories that happened post-GT, drawing character designs for it, and everything.

But as I've gotten older, and come to learn more about the creative process for art in general is, and Dragon Ball in particular, I understand that.....yeah, stories end at some point, and that's a good thing. Oob is Dragon Ball's ending. Oob is Son Goku's ending. I think it's an ending that works quite well, if just barely. Yes, it's an open ending where Toriyama teases that more things will continue to happen in the world, but like, of course he would? Just because a story ends doesn't mean that for the characters in-universe it is also the end of their world and existence. And even though Toriyama cooked up lore for post-epilogue stuff, that's very clearly the kind of stuff meant to make an MMORPG set in his world possible. It's lore in service of gameplay mechanics. It's telling that he never bothered telling any sort of actual story involving that lore, even after he came back and helped cook up more Dragon Ball stories.

I guess, for me, it’s like…the epilogue is just that…an epilogue. The meat and potatoes of the story ends when Goku obliterates Majin Boo. We get the further adventures of Goku and friends with Super and Daima so…so what if it’s before the 10 years later epilogue? It’s still after the last main event of the original manga. I know interquel stories can be frustrating because there’s a status quo to maintain. This is what made those Disney “sequels” that usually took place in the middle of the original movie so annoying when I was a kid. By their nature they can’t have actual stakes because the story has to work without them. The Fox and the Hound still got to be friends because they didn’t have a falling out until they were adults. But Dragon Ball Super in particular doesn’t seem all that concerned with if it contradicts the manga’s ending or not. They’ll pay lip service by referring to Oob’s God ki (however that works?) or Gohan still being a nerd and studying in Super Dee Duper Hero but that’s about it. 10 years of peace and not seeing much of each other since Boo was defeated is all thrown out the window. Super is already a sequel to Z that just happens to take place “before the epilogue” that might as well not exist in Super’s canon at this point.

[JulieYBM]

I remain a big fan of simply rewriting the Twenty-Eigth Tenka-ichi Budou-kai and tweaking it to better fit in with Dragon Ball Super, although I don't particularly think that it remains incongruent. I would also be in favor of changing it so that Dragon Ball Super can simply ignore the original last two chapters of that comic and kill a bunch of characters off. Go wild with it! Have fun!

[super michael]

There is one episode in DBS I didn't mind how Goku acted, which I believe the episode was good. That episode was 73 which Gohan is in a movie as The Great Saiyaman. There is no indication that Goku is into cinema and watching movie, so Goku being sleepy and bored in the cinema isn't out of character at all.

Goku and Vegeta not knowing how to play baseball isn't bad, since that doesn't contradict anything in Toriyama manga. Infact I would say it was funny how Goku and Vegeta played baseball.

[Koitsukai]

I never really minded the so-called lack of stakes due to the midquel nature of the show, because there is so much more than just living or dying for this bunch, like how their bonds evolve, who has the upper hand on the other, who remains the top dog.
We all know there are a few that don't see eye to eye with Vegeta, but having Geets save Roshi in the ToP changes their dynamic. A-17 acknowledging Piccolo and owing one to Krilin is another example.
Goku and Vegeta, too. Their relationship is more than just two rival saiyans fighting together like in the Buu arc, I don't want to say they are friends but kinda.

Just knowing the guys are alive by the end of the show isn't really a spoiler. Not after seeing them die many times and coming back every time, DBZ ends with 2 sets of DBs, and DBS introduces one more. I mean, we know the show isn't ending with somebody staying dead for good (that's GT). And even so, Future Trunks lost everything.

More than if they survive the midquel, I'm more interested in how they do that. Take Black Freeza for example, by now they could just let him slide(again), face him and win (how?? that's what I'm after, not them beating Freeza but how they could manage to do it), face him and lose and Freeza could let them go (again), they could even not face him now and do that after EoZ, as we've seen they can still live peacefully while Freeza does his thing out there.

EoZ is a safe take on every character, it leaves room for different interpretations after a midquel. Gohan, originally, was implied to have moved on from the fights, but now we know that he balances both. Back then, I figured he was rustier than vs Dabura, now we know he could subdue everybody.
So aside from the obvious "they are surviving it because they have many magical orbs (four sets, five if Daima is connected) and a Whis that turns back time", there's plenty of other very interesting things that have happened and still could happen.

I won't argue that some stories have been written with no stakes at all, like RoF with Whis and Beerus there waiting to save the day, though.

[JulieYBM]

I am loathed to talk up a Marvel series, but the recent Wonder Man mini-series' drama is literally just centered around the age-gap yaoi between Simon and Trevor. Learning to be vulnerable and finding redemption. No big fight scenes to cap off the series, just two guys trying to accept and love themselves for who they are. Literally any series can just do this shit. It's not rocket science. Hell, splice in a fight scene or three to keep the kids fully entertained, who cares.

If Capsule Corp Tokyo wants to keep making Dragon Ball, it needs to break its own rules.