Torishima gives his opinion on Dragon Ball Daima and says he would make a Vegeta story

[PhantomSaiyan]

Torishima: There is no way One Piece will become a popular manga! Don't talk nonsense!!

Yeah....he clearly never lost his touch lol. Toriyama is still the one that worked the hardest of the 2, so for me, he is the one that deserves most of the praise and recognition. But i guess for the Edgy Ball Z fans, Torishima is they GOAT lol. But let's see him make a Vegeta story, so he can put stress on a writer too make a good story and get all the credit when it succeed and non of the blame when it fails.

Putting aside the fact that seem too butthurt that nobody here is on your side, you missed the point entirely

You seem to think that people want to give MORE praise to Torishima than Toriyama, or that he's more talented, or that he deserves more credit. Stop making up strawman arguments.

Nobody said that, and nobody ever will so you're fighting with ghosts or voices in your head it seems.
We simply know that Torishima also deserves some praise and credit, unlike you, since you clearly lack important knowledge and respect for the role of an editor in a story.

I suggest you educate yourself more on this next time you get the idea of expressing your opinion. It's for your own sake, so you avoid making needlessly ignorant and edgy remarks

[VegettoEX]

I think it's kinda bizarre to hang your hat on the "Torishima missed One Piece" thing. No-one bats a thousand, and he seems to take that miss in stride.

(And, as an on-again/off-again One Piece fan myself since the anime originally launched, I'd argue a lot of the same things Torishima initially saw in him and other fans/detractors alike continue to analyze about his ongoing work.)

This really isn't something to be so angry and antagonistic about folks! Remember that we're all here to have a good faith conversation, and that we aren't investors or stakeholders in this franchise ourselves.

[funrush]

because I've heard of so many mangaka overworking to hospitalization/death because they're working on their series 24/7, meanwhile Toriyama appears to be a guy who could pump out a masterwork at the last minute.

Toriyama wasn't immune to the pressures of his line of work even if it was self inflicted. Before he got a fax machine he would have to bike across town to the airport to get his manuscripts mailed overnight to Torishima for Dr. Slump. Torishima mentioned in his book that Toriyama had to be forced into getting a fax machine because he didn't want to have to learn a new technology during his work week.

Well taking this and the info about him doing his chapters in a day it sounds like he was an incredible procrastinator. I said "could" pump out a masterwork at the last minute but if that story's true then he really was doing them the day before. Which further explains his distaste for drawing stuff that requires lots of ink or was out of his usual wheelhouse, because if he's doing these in a day he wanted as few obstacles as possible.

That also makes me wonder about the stories I've heard of him only getting like 6 hours of sleep in a week. If he's only spending like 2 days on drawing the manga, why wasn't he sleeping during the other 5? Maybe that week was a part in the story that was particularly tripping him up, or he was staying up all night playing Dragon Quest.

[MasenkoHA]

Dragon Ball may not be interested in saying something, but it says a lot of things. Saccharinity and kitsch melodrama aren't necessary to present emotion, there is power in Dragon Ball's emotional subtlety.

In recent years, I've come to find that Dragon Ball characters are bizarrely more realistic than most other works in its demographic in large part due to Toriyama's "Fuck it" approach.

Something Dragon Ball doesn’t get enough credit for it understands male friendships better than literally any other shonen series.

Goku and Kuririn are best friends and will go years without talking and seeing each other and then act like they saw each other. They also didn’t become best buds because of some life changing moment, they just hung around each other enough as training partners until they built a good rapport.


Vegeta doesn’t even seem to like Goku all that much but they have that one thing in common (a love for fighting and getting stronger) so they’re basically gym bros and have a friendship entirely built on their only mutual hobby.

[Yellow Flower King]

because I've heard of so many mangaka overworking to hospitalization/death because they're working on their series 24/7, meanwhile Toriyama appears to be a guy who could pump out a masterwork at the last minute.

Toriyama wasn't immune to the pressures of his line of work even if it was self inflicted. Before he got a fax machine he would have to bike across town to the airport to get his manuscripts mailed overnight to Torishima for Dr. Slump. Torishima mentioned in his book that Toriyama had to be forced into getting a fax machine because he didn't want to have to learn a new technology during his work week.

Well taking this and the info about him doing his chapters in a day it sounds like he was an incredible procrastinator. I said "could" pump out a masterwork at the last minute but if that story's true then he really was doing them the day before. Which further explains his distaste for drawing stuff that requires lots of ink or was out of his usual wheelhouse, because if he's doing these in a day he wanted as few obstacles as possible.

That also makes me wonder about the stories I've heard of him only getting like 6 hours of sleep in a week. If he's only spending like 2 days on drawing the manga, why wasn't he sleeping during the other 5? Maybe that week was a part in the story that was particularly tripping him up, or he was staying up all night playing Dragon Quest.

Actually handing his work so late has another purpose, if Torishima gets the manuscripts late, there is no way for him to change it. This is Toriyama trying to get his way, which is pretty ingenious!

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball may not be interested in saying something, but it says a lot of things. Saccharinity and kitsch melodrama aren't necessary to present emotion, there is power in Dragon Ball's emotional subtlety.

In recent years, I've come to find that Dragon Ball characters are bizarrely more realistic than most other works in its demographic in large part due to Toriyama's "Fuck it" approach.

Something Dragon Ball doesn’t get enough credit for it understands male friendships better than literally any other shonen series.

Goku and Kuririn are best friends and will go years without talking and seeing each other and then act like they saw each other. They also didn’t become best buds because of some life changing moment, they just hung around each other enough as training partners until they built a good rapport.


Vegeta doesn’t even seem to like Goku all that much but they have that one thing in common (a love for fighting and getting stronger) so they’re basically gym bros and have a friendship entirely built on their only mutual hobby.

This reminds me of how me and all of my female friends will actually have full conversations with beginning, middles and ends and then all my cis male friends just abruptly stop talking mid-conversation and it's honestly one of the most annoying things every. Y'all gotta learn to show more emotion and communicate more.

We gotta fix you boys!!!

[GokuIsMyDad77X]

Like, honestly? No offense, but talking down to new blood is straight boomer shit. That's all I hear come out of his mouth.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Like, honestly? No offense, but talking down to new blood is straight boomer shit. That's all I hear come out of his mouth.

I disagree with calling an opinion "boomer shit" just because you disagree with it.

There's nuance in everything he says that most people choose to ignore just because his argument goes against something they like.
Whether you like it or not, what he says is backed up by his entire life's experience of working in the industry, and he's been the editor of one of the most sold manga of all time: that means something.

Not saying I agree with everything he says, but we should treat veterans of the industry with respect.

[GokuIsMyDad77X]

Like, honestly? No offense, but talking down to new blood is straight boomer shit. That's all I hear come out of his mouth.

I disagree with calling an opinion "boomer shit" just because you disagree with it.

There's nuance in everything he says that most people choose to ignore just because his argument goes against something they like.
Whether you like it or not, what he says is backed up by his entire life's experience of working in the industry, and he's been the editor of one of the most sold manga of all time: that means something.

Not saying I agree with everything he says, but we should treat veterans of the industry with respect.

I absolutely agree. But scolding a younger fellow in front of a panel for not drawing something correctly is where the line, I feel, gets crossed. I agree, people are entitled to their opinions. But when you have to shaft someone for inexperience just to boost your ego? Shit- I don't think Toriyama-sensei was ever this hard on Toyotaro-san.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I absolutely agree. But scolding a younger fellow in front of a panel for not drawing something correctly is where the line, I feel, gets crossed. I agree, people are entitled to their opinions. But when you have to shaft someone for inexperience just to boost your ego? Shit- I don't think Toriyama-sensei was ever this hard on Toyotaro-san.

Ok, I do agree with the fact that he shouldn't have criticized Toyotaro in that manner in front of so many people, that we can absolutely agree on.

But I don't think he did it for his own ego, from what I've gathered by reading Torishima interviews, and Toriyama's experiences with him, he just has this kinda rude and direct way to communicate, regardless of context. He'd tell you the same thing whether or not you're behind closed doors or in front of an audience.

In a way, it's sort of admirable because it shows that he just says what's on his mind and isn't a fake person (which is unique in a society like Japan where fake politeness reigns supreme) but yeah on the other hand, the downside is that he could absolutely roast you in front of thousands of people if the opportunity arises...

Another reason I don't think it's because of ego, is because I remember reading that he said something along the lines of "I only criticize when I see talent because I want to see it grow, same way you scold your child because you love him, but you wouldn't take time to educate someone else's child"

[GokuIsMyDad77X]

I absolutely agree. But scolding a younger fellow in front of a panel for not drawing something correctly is where the line, I feel, gets crossed. I agree, people are entitled to their opinions. But when you have to shaft someone for inexperience just to boost your ego? Shit- I don't think Toriyama-sensei was ever this hard on Toyotaro-san.

Ok, I do agree with the fact that he shouldn't have criticized Toyotaro in that manner in front of so many people, that we can absolutely agree on.

But I don't think he did it for his own ego, from what I've gathered by reading Torishima interviews, and Toriyama's experiences with him, he just has this kinda rude and direct way to communicate, regardless of context. He'd tell you the same thing whether or not you're behind closed doors or in front of an audience.

In a way, it's sort of admirable because it shows that he just says what's on his mind and isn't a fake person (which is unique in a society like Japan where fake politeness reigns supreme) but yeah on the other hand, the downside is that he could absolutely roast you in front of thousands of people if the opportunity arises...

My apologies for seeming reactionary, my friend- I was prepared to be a gentleman, in so saying. But I saw that he seriously did that, and am willing to verify, and it just seems like it's the manga editor version of classic rock fandom. You know what I mean?

Torishima-sensei is certainly a legend. I am not denying, and frankly, I regret how I voiced it. But I think Toyotaro-san deserves respect for how hard he worked to get to being Toriyama-sensei's avowed disciple. From the sociological vantage of being a native to Dragon Ball's country of origin who created (other than Young Jijii's version) the definitive Dragon Ball AF. Notwithstanding 'La Essencia' , if you catch my drift!

[JulieYBM]

I absolutely agree. But scolding a younger fellow in front of a panel for not drawing something correctly is where the line, I feel, gets crossed. I agree, people are entitled to their opinions. But when you have to shaft someone for inexperience just to boost your ego? Shit- I don't think Toriyama-sensei was ever this hard on Toyotaro-san.

Ok, I do agree with the fact that he shouldn't have criticized Toyotaro in that manner in front of so many people, that we can absolutely agree on.

But I don't think he did it for his own ego, from what I've gathered by reading Torishima interviews, and Toriyama's experiences with him, he just has this kinda rude and direct way to communicate, regardless of context. He'd tell you the same thing whether or not you're behind closed doors or in front of an audience.

In a way, it's sort of admirable because it shows that he just says what's on his mind and isn't a fake person (which is unique in a society like Japan where fake politeness reigns supreme) but yeah on the other hand, the downside is that he could absolutely roast you in front of thousands of people if the opportunity arises...

I'm not here to make a judgement call on Torishima's behavior in this specific instance, but being rude is[/] something to be critical of. It's possible to directly criticize someone without being an asshole about it.

Like, I think Toyotaro is a utterly awful artist, but if I'm going to criticize him to his face I can at least put in the effort to not be a bitch about it.

Luckily, I'll never criticize him to his face.

[PhantomSaiyan]

My apologies for seeming reactionary, my friend- I was prepared to be a gentleman, in so saying. But I saw that he seriously did that, and am willing to verify, and it just seems like it's the manga editor version of classic rock fandom. You know what I mean?

Torishima-sensei is certainly a legend. I am not denying, and frankly, I regret how I voiced it. But I think Toyotaro-san deserves respect for how hard he worked to get to being Toriyama-sensei's avowed disciple. From the sociological vantage of being a native to Dragon Ball's country of origin who created (other than Young Jijii's version) the definitive Dragon Ball AF. Notwithstanding 'La Essencia' , if you catch my drift!

I get what you mean, that's a good comparison

And yeah as much as I have my grievances with how Toyotaro handled some parts of the dbs manga, I do absolutely respect his work. He's basically one of us, a fan, who did his best to get to where he is today.

And no need to apologize man! It's all good

I'm not here to make a judgement call on Torishima's behavior in this specific instance, but being rude is something to be critical of. It's possible to directly criticize someone without being an asshole about it.

Like, I think Toyotaro is a utterly awful artist, but if I'm going to criticize him to his face I can at least put in the effort to not be a bitch about it.

Luckily, I'll never criticize him to his face.

For sure, he went down way too hard on Toyotaro, being that they were in front of a lot of people and all, so he should not be excused for that, he should have just told him in private at most.
At least Toyotaro seemed to take it well.. But I guess that's all he could do in that situation lol

[Zebra]

Any editor could have suggested that idea at the time, that doesn't make Torishima special.

I never understood this type of reasoning.
"Anyone could have done it" but he's the one that did it, and we have proof of that. But you have no proof that literally any other editor would have suggested the same thing.
Tournament arcs weren't exactly popular before Dragon Ball, so he not only gave a creative suggestion that saved the franchise, but also one that would be copied by every next generation, to this day.

Not true. It was Ring ni Kakero (serialized in Jump from 1976 to 1981) that popularized tournament arcs in Shounen (at least in fighting/martial arts manga. I'm pretty sure they were popular in sports manga. Ring is a sports manga, too, as it's about boxing, but boxing is also a martial art). Other series that were running at the time like Kin'nikuman based their tournament arcs on Ring's.

Even the tournament arcs in Dr. Slump were popular with readers, which is why Toriyama decided to do a tournament arc in Dragon Ball. Readers have pretty much always tuned into contest events like these because they're excited to see which character wins; Dragon Ball didn't popularize them.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Not true. It was Ring ni Kakero (serialized in Jump from 1976 to 1981) that popularized tournament arcs in Shounen (at least in fighting/martial arts manga. I'm pretty sure they were popular in sports manga. Ring is a sports manga, too, as it's about boxing, but boxing is also a martial art). Other series that were running at the time like Kin'nikuman based their tournament arcs on Ring's.

Even the tournament arcs in Dr. Slump were popular with readers, which is why Toriyama decided to do a tournament arc in Dragon Ball. Readers have pretty much always tuned into contest events like these because they're excited to see which character wins; Dragon Ball didn't popularize them.

Small difference that doesn't detract from my point whatsoever.

[Zebra]

Not true. It was Ring ni Kakero (serialized in Jump from 1976 to 1981) that popularized tournament arcs in Shounen (at least in fighting/martial arts manga. I'm pretty sure they were popular in sports manga. Ring is a sports manga, too, as it's about boxing, but boxing is also a martial art). Other series that were running at the time like Kin'nikuman based their tournament arcs on Ring's.

Even the tournament arcs in Dr. Slump were popular with readers, which is why Toriyama decided to do a tournament arc in Dragon Ball. Readers have pretty much always tuned into contest events like these because they're excited to see which character wins; Dragon Ball didn't popularize them.

Small difference that doesn't detract from my point whatsoever.

You're falsely giving Torishima credit for popularizing tournament arcs.

[PhantomSaiyan]

You're falsely giving Torishima credit for popularizing tournament arcs.

Not what I was doing.
If you've read the entire discussion, you'd know that the main point was to tell that other guy that Torishima was an active part of the Dragon Ball manga development back when he was editor.
I got one thing wrong while doing it? That's fine, as it doesn't detract from the main point, which was that Torishima was essential in shaping early Dragon Ball as we know it by virtue of being the editor, and saved it from it's early failing popularity.

So once again, thanks for pointing that out, but it does not detract from my point whatsoever.