The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Mystic-han]

Early Buu arc Hypothetical SS2 Goten vs Super Perfect Cell.
Early Buu arc Hypothetical SS2 Trunks vs Dabura.

Early Buu arc SS Trunks vs Cell Games SS Goku.
If Trunks can beat him, could he also beat the stronger SS Gohan? not in a row, of course.

It's just Dabura with regeneration vs a weaker version of Rusty Gohan it's obvious who's going to win

As for Trunks vs Goku it's up to you , he's Weaker than Buu saga gohan who was weaker than Cell games Gohan

[Noah]

New match:

- Hypothetical Third Eye Dabura vs. Super Boohan

[Berserker1921]

New match:

- Hypothetical Third Eye Dabura vs. Super Boohan

Dabura would probably win. It was stated that Gomah was the strongest villain at that time. And if let’s say that Third Eye doesn’t have a set power increase or level up. Dabura is eons above Gomah. He was at least Ssj Goku (Cell Saga) power level before Babidi kidnapped him.

I bet Dabura would probably reach Ssj 1 or Ssj 2 Vegito levels. So, he stomps hard.

[BernardoCairo]

How much stronger is Android 20 compared to Namek Freeza?
I am tired of people claiming that Freeza could beat Android 20 simply because the Androids were defeated by Super Saiyajin level characters. That argument ignores the massive power escalation that happens after Namek. Vegeta clearly scales above Super Saiyajin Goku at the start of the Android saga, even accounting for Goku’s heart virus. Goku still trained for three years specifically to face the Androids, on top of the additional year he spent mastering techniques on Yardrat. Piccolo was also stated to be around Super Saiyajin level and trained alongside a Super Saiyajin for those same three years. This directly contradicts the idea that Piccolo only surpassed Freeza after fusing with Kami Sama later in the story. When you look at the overall scaling, it becomes clear that everyone involved by the Android saga is comfortably stronger than any Namek level character by a significant margin.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How much stronger is Android 20 compared to Namek Freeza?
I am tired of people claiming that Freeza could beat Android 20 simply because the Androids were defeated by Super Saiyajin level characters. That argument ignores the massive power escalation that happens after Namek. Vegeta clearly scales above Super Saiyajin Goku at the start of the Android saga, even accounting for Goku’s heart virus. Goku still trained for three years specifically to face the Androids, on top of the additional year he spent mastering techniques on Yardrat. Piccolo was also stated to be around Super Saiyajin level and trained alongside a Super Saiyajin for those same three years. This directly contradicts the idea that Piccolo only surpassed Freeza after fusing with Kami Sama later in the story. When you look at the overall scaling, it becomes clear that everyone involved by the Android saga is comfortably stronger than any Namek level character by a significant margin.

He's a lot stronger, but not multiple times stronger. Most people scale him to be around the level of Goku and Trunks when they met, 3 years before the androids arrived.

[Almighty Majin]

Let us assume a hypothetical version of Cell with a different genetic make up:
Turles
Broly (Z)
Lord Slug
Cooler
Chilled

How strong would this version of Cell be? How high would his potential be?

[DBZ Macky]

New Match:
Future Gohan VS Present Gohan (Power Levels Equalized)

Basically boils down to who you think is more skilled / has better experience. Both also apparently know the Makankosappo if games are to be taken as a legit source.

Let us assume a hypothetical version of Cell with a different genetic make up:
Turles
Broly (Z)
Lord Slug
Cooler
Chilled

How strong would this version of Cell be? How high would his potential be?

This is really interesting as each character is basically the movie counterpart of the characters that make up Cell's DNA:

Turles < Vegeta. The Tree of Might is what makes Turles strong, and even with that he's inferior to Vegeta in every way given the latter's massive power jumps on Namek.

Z!Broly > Goku. None of Goku's techniques are genetic so this is just straight up a MASSIVE upgrade. At worst you could argue that Cell learning Instant Transmission was because of Goku's ability to (most of the time) mimic techniques after just seeing them once. But still, doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things since Cooler also ends up learning the technique.

Lord Slug > Piccolo. Slug is straight up stronger than Piccolo (not fused with Kami), it's just that he doesn't train so this is also an upgrade.

Cooler > Frieza since that's literally the point of his character. Even if we consider training, SDBH Cooler can also go Golden so it seems that Cooler has just as much or more potential than Frieza when it comes to increasing his power with training.

Chilled < Cold just judging from the fact that Bardock was able to defeat the former whereas the latter had a larger Ki than a relaxed Frieza according to the Anime.

Overall, while Turles and Chilled hold him back, Movie!Cell should be massively stronger than Canon!Cell. I'd think this Cell would initially be stronger than SS Grade II Vegeta and Trunks even in his Imperfect Form but would by far surpass SS2 Gohan once he reaches his final Super Perfect form. Would still be just shy of Fat Buu's power level, but if he actually trains then I think there's no one that can defeat him, not even Zeno.

He would be pretty dumb compared to Canon!Cell though since he has Slug instead of Piccolo (big gap), Broly instead of Goku (small gap with big personality issues) and the guy that thought attacking Trunks with his sword was a good idea instead of Frieza who was apparently the first of his thousands-of-years old clan to eventually figure out how to do a push-up.

How much stronger is Android 20 compared to Namek Freeza?

Closer to Base Saiyans than the Super Saiyans when you consider the fact that, off-guard or not, Goku's punch staggered him. If you think that Base Goku (Android Saga) > Super Saiyan Goku (Frieza Saga) then by all means go ahead but I personally think nobody in that part of the story was actually Super Saiyan Level™ unless they were a Super Saiyan, absorbed energy from one or were named Piccolo. I do think everyone was strong/skilled enough to hold their ground against those characters, though.

New match:

- Hypothetical Third Eye Dabura vs. Super Boohan

The main thing to consider is that Mini Super Saiyan 4 characters are weaker than Adult Super Saiyan 3s.
Super Buu, not even Buuhan, was beyond Super Saiyan 3 Goku's level.
Gomah had to power up multiple times and was initially having trouble with Mini SS4 Goku. Dabura gets turned into candy and it's GG.

It was stated that Gomah was the strongest villain at that time.

Strongest villain in Daima. Not a single statement about his power being compared to Buu or Gohan or anyone else. Also didn't do any real damage to anyone despite being "the strongest villain". Pillow hands with maxed out defense who would still lose to a Hellzone grenade or Vegeta's Ki Blast spam attack if two blasts accidentally attacked his weak point.

[BernardoCairo]

Closer to Base Saiyans than the Super Saiyans when you consider the fact that, off-guard or not, Goku's punch staggered him. If you think that Base Goku (Android Saga) > Super Saiyan Goku (Frieza Saga) then by all means go ahead but I personally think nobody in that part of the story was actually Super Saiyan Level™ unless they were a Super Saiyan, absorbed energy from one or were named Piccolo. I do think everyone was strong/skilled enough to hold their ground against those characters, though.

It makes sense, but Gero still seemed pretty confident when Goku showed up as a Super Saiyajin, even though he wasn’t expecting it.
I also don’t really get why the Z Fighters would train for three years, not surpass Freeza, and still show up to fight the Androids when they were explicitly said to be even stronger.

[DBZ Macky]

Closer to Base Saiyans than the Super Saiyans when you consider the fact that, off-guard or not, Goku's punch staggered him. If you think that Base Goku (Android Saga) > Super Saiyan Goku (Frieza Saga) then by all means go ahead but I personally think nobody in that part of the story was actually Super Saiyan Level™ unless they were a Super Saiyan, absorbed energy from one or were named Piccolo. I do think everyone was strong/skilled enough to hold their ground against those characters, though.

It makes sense, but Gero still seemed pretty confident when Goku showed up as a Super Saiyajin, even though he wasn’t expecting it.
I also don’t really get why the Z Fighters would train for three years, not surpass Freeza, and still show up to fight the Androids when they were explicitly said to be even stronger.

I personally think Gero was banking on the Z-Fighters not knowing about the energy absorption thing and thus powering the androids up, which is what ended up happening. They were durable enough to not get one-shotted by a punch even while "uncharged" and yet, as I said, did get staggered by Base Goku which is why I think if, roughly, Base Goku = 3,000,000 and SS Goku = 150,000,000 then their starting power levels would probably be somewhere in between, say something like 30,000,000.

Also, them training for 3 years and still not surpassing Frieza is realistic considering that Yamcha (1,480) and Chiaotzu (610) didn't even surpass Raditz (1,500) even though they knew about the Saiyans' arrival and had trained for it for an entire year.

[dbgtFO]

Closer to Base Saiyans than the Super Saiyans when you consider the fact that, off-guard or not, Goku's punch staggered him. If you think that Base Goku (Android Saga) > Super Saiyan Goku (Frieza Saga) then by all means go ahead but I personally think nobody in that part of the story was actually Super Saiyan Level™ unless they were a Super Saiyan, absorbed energy from one or were named Piccolo. I do think everyone was strong/skilled enough to hold their ground against those characters, though.

It makes sense, but Gero still seemed pretty confident when Goku showed up as a Super Saiyajin, even though he wasn’t expecting it.
I also don’t really get why the Z Fighters would train for three years, not surpass Freeza, and still show up to fight the Androids when they were explicitly said to be even stronger.

The Earthling squad are brave warriors, they will show up despite knowing they are individually outmatched.
They already did so for Freeza.
Neither of them claim to have become strong enough to handle the threat on their own and they likely would be ok as long as Goku was there.
Krillin even brings up the fact that he's not a Super Saiyan, when asked about his thoughts, ie. he's simply not on that level.

As for Dr. Gero and Android 19, I take this whole start of the arc as a reset basically.
Toriyama having to change the villains and having to throw Goku & co all into the RoSaT for extra training that actually gives them new forms and gigantic powerups leads me to the conclusion that the 3 years of training barely accomplished anything at the top end.

Future Trunks is still held up as an example of power to anyone not named Goku and Vegeta and the gap between him and the two pure Saiyans is not described as big.
Futhermore there's no indication that he became stronger in those 3 years either, so the narrative crafted here is essentially one of the Super Saiyans at the top end not being so far removed from the Super Saiyans of 3 years ago and therefore also not the first Super Saiyan against Freeza.
People are gonna bring up Tenshinhan's statement, but that reeks of a gigantic reset too.
He words his statement like this is the first time he's ever seen SS Goku, not like how this SS Goku is much more impressive than 3 years ago.
If Toriyama wanted to establish such comparison, then he would have that be specifically said, instead of this very weird wording.

So I think Dr. Gero and Android 19 are like basically stand ins for the threat posed by Freeza and Cold 3 years prior, but with absorption abilities thrown in, making them much deadlier, despite their starting power being quite unimpressive to the point a powered up Piccolo, who though still a good way off a Super Saiyan is enough for either of them.

[Noah]

New match:

- The Pride Troopers vs. The Ginyu Force (equal power for both)

[dragon boss z]

Closer to Base Saiyans than the Super Saiyans when you consider the fact that, off-guard or not, Goku's punch staggered him. If you think that Base Goku (Android Saga) > Super Saiyan Goku (Frieza Saga) then by all means go ahead but I personally think nobody in that part of the story was actually Super Saiyan Level™ unless they were a Super Saiyan, absorbed energy from one or were named Piccolo. I do think everyone was strong/skilled enough to hold their ground against those characters, though.

It makes sense, but Gero still seemed pretty confident when Goku showed up as a Super Saiyajin, even though he wasn’t expecting it.
I also don’t really get why the Z Fighters would train for three years, not surpass Freeza, and still show up to fight the Androids when they were explicitly said to be even stronger.

Gero wasn’t confident at all. He was only confident at Goku’s resting ssj power, which is not his real power. Once he saw Goku fighting he thought 19 was going to lose. 19 and Gero are a stomp tape below Piccolo, and Piccolo is weaker than Trunks was when he defeated Frieza. Vegeta flat out said 19/20 were weaker than what Trunks said they would be, and all he said was they were two strong for him to beat 2v1 and that they were stronger than Frieza.

[dragon boss z]

How much stronger is Android 20 compared to Namek Freeza?
I am tired of people claiming that Freeza could beat Android 20 simply because the Androids were defeated by Super Saiyajin level characters. That argument ignores the massive power escalation that happens after Namek. Vegeta clearly scales above Super Saiyajin Goku at the start of the Android saga, even accounting for Goku’s heart virus. Goku still trained for three years specifically to face the Androids, on top of the additional year he spent mastering techniques on Yardrat. Piccolo was also stated to be around Super Saiyajin level and trained alongside a Super Saiyajin for those same three years. This directly contradicts the idea that Piccolo only surpassed Freeza after fusing with Kami Sama later in the story. When you look at the overall scaling, it becomes clear that everyone involved by the Android saga is comfortably stronger than any Namek level character by a significant margin.

There is no proof 19/20 are stronger than Frieza. There is evidence for it, but there is also evidence Frieza is stronger than them. It can be argued either way.

[Hugo Boss]

Base Goku (Super Hero) vs. Perfect Cell

[angeldreamZ004]

I think it would have to be at least Super Perfect Cell to actually give any trouble to the current base Goku from Super. The Zamasu arc strongly suggests that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are at the same level or slightly above the characters' SSJ2 form from the Cell and Boo arcs, while Super Perfect Cell was weaker than them.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it would have to be at least Super Perfect Cell to actually give any trouble to the current base Goku from Super. The Zamasu arc strongly suggests that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are at the same level or slightly above the characters' SSJ2 form from the Cell and Boo arcs, while Super Perfect Cell was weaker than them.

I would like a more detailed explanation of what strongly suggests that. From what I’ve seen, their SS2 forms were still compared with SS2 Kid Gohan, which actually suggests their Base forms are not that much different from what they were back in Boo arc.

[angeldreamZ004]

I would like a more detailed explanation of what strongly suggests that. From what I’ve seen, their SS2 forms were still compared with SS2 Kid Gohan, which actually suggests their Base forms are not that much different from what they were back in Boo arc.

I think the Boo arc doesn't work so well as a reference because we only see Goku, Vegeta and Gohan using their base forms against Pui Pui at best, and it was only Vegeta fighting. Starting from Yakon, we just see SSJ1 or 2 non-stop + the new transformations and fusions. So for me it's hard to have any idea of how strong they became in that arc and how they can be compared to Super. Super exposes more how strong the base forms became.

Battle of Gods have Goku and Vegeta training regularly, suggesting that they became stronger than they were in the Boo Arc. In the same movie, it's said that Vegeta surpassed Goku, and that was a enraged SSJ2 Vegeta which impressed more than Goku's SSJ3. That concept continues into the Zamasu arc, where SSJ2 Mirai Trunks, who forced Goku to use SSJ3, couldn't handle Base Form Goku Black. While SSJ Vegeta (i don't know if it's 1 or 2, I believe it's 1) was stronger than SSJ1 Goku Black. Mirai Trunks trained under Nahare, who was weaker than the adult SSJ1s from Boo arc. Zamasu seemed to be equal to SSJ2 Goku and Trunks in both the anime and manga (both normal and immortal, I don't think the immortality gave him a power boost or can't remember)

That's why I mentioned the Zamasu arc, you have Goku straight up saying that Mirai Trunks was stronger than "Gohan back then", and the last time Goku interacted with Mirai Trunks prior to that arc was when SSJ2 Gohan was fighting Cell.

Finally, in the same arc, Trunks says that they already reached the limits of their bodies, which I interpret as them no longer being able to enhance their base forms. So, If SSJ Vegeta was able to handle SSJ1 Goku Black, and Base Goku Black gave a hard time to SSJ2 Mirai Trunks, who Goku claimed to be stronger than SSJ2 Teen Gohan, then I believe that Goku and Vegeta's base forms full limit is above the SSJ2s seen in the original series. That's why I also believe current Base Goku and Vegeta are stronger than Super Perfect Cell, who lost to a damaged SSJ2 Teen Gohan and was interrupted by a SSJ1 Vegeta.

Then there's Super Hero, showing that base Vegeta is just 0,1 stronger than Base Goku as both felt completely drained. So both base forms are in a equal level that is above a SSJ2 from the original series.

If base Goku and Vegeta from Super were weaker than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan, then SSJ2 Vegeta shouldn't be stronger than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ Vegeta should've lost to SSJ1 Goku Black. SSJ2 Mirai Trunks should be stronger than SSJ1/2 Vegeta. SSJB Goku and Vegeta should not give trouble to SSJR Goku Black, and SSJB Goku much less should give trouble to Fused Zamasu.

I can give other examples too such as for the arcs I didn't mention. Like the Golden Freeza arc in the anime, where base Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Piccolo and base Gohan, potentially his SSJ1 as well. Freeza was torturing him and that was 1st form Freeza, he needed the Final Form to be a match for base Goku. (Though I know Gohan got weaker, but I still think it's a good example)

Fusion contributes to this as well. Gogeta only needed the SSJ1 to be stronger than SSJ1 Broly. This means that Base Gogeta in that movie is around the same level or stronger than SSJG Goku and Vegeta, who couldn't handle Ikari Broly.
If Base Goku and Vegeta were weaker than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan, then Gogeta shouldn't be able to surpass SSJ1 Broly only with his SSJ1 transformation. The SSJB should not even be able to handle Ikari Broly actually. Unless Boo Arc Super Vegetto was stronger than current SSJB Goku and Vegeta, but I think that's unlikely and would contradict what is stated and shown in the Super arcs prior to the Broly movie. So I believe there's more evidence for Base Goku and Vegeta in Super being stronger than Cell Saga SSJ2 Gohan than evidence for them being weaker. At least starting from the Zamasu arc, I think the Beerus-Golden Freeza-Champa arcs are harder to analyse, but BoG already exposes a few things like I said above.

[Hugo Boss]

I brought Boo arc as a reference, because Goku and Vegeta in that arc were compared to Gohan from the Cell Games when they used their SS2 forms, which is exactly the same nod that Goku gave when Trunks reveals he can also use SS2 too. That is not to say Goku and Vegeta didn’t get stronger since they fought Boo, but it would be strange to give such nod only after Trunks transforms and not while he is in Base form, if it was already supposed to be that strong. Same way, Freeza doesn’t give a nod to Caulifla in the manga until she uses SS1, which means her Base form isn’t implied to be stronger than SS1 Goku from Namek arc.

Besides, Vegeta’s SS2 in Zamasu arc is an outlier, since not even Goku as a SS3 would be able to fight Goku Black that easily, especially if Goku Black is using SS1. If Vegeta’s SS1 was stronger than Goku Black’s SS1, than Base Vegeta would be stronger than Base Goku Black and that’s simply not possible, considering he’s about as strong as Goku in the same forms and Goku’s SS3 was about as strong as Trunks’s SS2 at full power. Toyotaro’s take on Vegeta’s SS2 suggests he kept the rage power boost from his fight against Beerus, which is the only event this form surpasses Goku’s SS3. It’s kinda weird that Toyotaro decided to make SS2 that special on Vegeta and Trunks, but it’s only because of that that SS2 Vegeta was able to overpower SS1 Goku Black.

By the way, the thing about them reaching their body’s limits in Zamasu arc is that they couldn’t get near-death-power-ups like they used to have in Namek arc, which is basically what Goku Black was getting and surpassing the Saiyans in forms he shouldn’t be able to. The point is that his evolution was based on that dynamic and there was seemingly a very tiny difference between him and Trunks when they first started their repeated battles, considering Trunks claimed he fought Goku Black’s SS1 for a while.

BoG and RoF arcs are a lot different from the rest of Super, since Goku implied he was using the power of SSG in his Base form during his fight against Freeza. Toyotaro even drew a panel of SSG’s shade behind Goku’s Base form during his training sessions with Whis in the promo manga, which was largely influenced by the movies. If that carried over into Super subsquent arcs and Goku had abandoned SS1, SS2, SS3 and SSG, we probably wouldn’t be talking about it right now.

Finally, perhaps DBS Broly’s take on Fusion’s power-up would be a good indication of how strong Goku and Vegeta got, since BoG Goku implied SSG was greater than SS1 Vegetto or Gogeta, and Base Gogeta in Broly ended up being about as strong as SSGSS. But unfortunately, we don’t know exactly how much stronger Goku and Vegeta would need to get to reach such breakpoint, considering fusions don’t follow linear progression as the other transformations, they’re more like battle powers being multiplied together.