Kid Buu vs Buuhan(Article):

[Kid Buu]

Your posts made me realise, had Gohan beaten Buu, the arc would have been a similar formula to Daimao:

Demon is released -> beats hero -> demon gets stronger -> hero gets stronger -> rematch

As someone who's wondered what the Boo arc would've looked like had Gohan stayed in the leading role, I have had thev same exact thought.

I guess you'd either have to power down Gotenks-Buu, or power up Piccolo-Buu, to be close to Gohan in power and Gohan can beat him in a close fight. Probably everyone gets resurrected except Goku, Vegeta and maybe Fat Buu.

(I'm not a big fan of Mystic Gohan concept so I'm glad Toriyama didn't go that route personally).

[DanielSSJ]

I guess you'd either have to power down Gotenks-Buu, or power up Piccolo-Buu, to be close to Gohan in power and Gohan can beat him in a close fight. Probably everyone gets resurrected except Goku, Vegeta and maybe Fat Buu.

(I'm not a big fan of Mystic Gohan concept so I'm glad Toriyama didn't go that route personally).

Yeah, I'm not crazy about the end result of Gohan's character arc of him not training for seven years biting him in the ass being a magic freebie power-up. Ultimate Gohan would have to either be retooled or replaced with something else.

[Kid Buu]

Agreed. Plus I love the plot twist that Gohan was given so much buildup, only to lose. As a kid I was hooked because it really made me feel that Buu might actually be invincibile and the heroes were screwed.

[Hellspawn28]

I think had Super Buu turn back into Grey Buu, there would be big debate on who is the strongest buu. Kid Buu itself makes no sense given that removing Fat Buu should have turn Super Buu back into Grey Buu.

[Kid Buu]

I think had Super Buu turn back into Grey Buu, there would be big debate on who is the strongest buu. Kid Buu itself makes no sense given that removing Fat Buu should have turn Super Buu back into Grey Buu.

I get where you're coming from, but I really like the idea that the final villain is a kid. Dragon Ball always had overpowered kid protagonists, so I liked that for the final battle, Toriyama reversed the tables.

[DanielSSJ]

I think had Super Buu turn back into Grey Buu, there would be big debate on who is the strongest buu. Kid Buu itself makes no sense given that removing Fat Buu should have turn Super Buu back into Grey Buu.

I dunno if skinny Boo could've carried the final confrontation on his own. The logic is a little wobbly, but I can sorta buy that after having Fat Boo inside him for a while, he kinda re-acquired his "essence" and became more of a complete being and not just a husk.

[Kid Buu]

The way I see it is Evil Buu is a manifestation of Fat Buu;s anger and still has some Kaioshin influence, while Pure Buu is just Buu's regular form with no external influence.

[Koitsukai]

I really enjoyed a take I read a long time ago about how Buu's appearance depends on his perception of himself.

Like, when he splits, he becomes a skinny guy, like he has lost a part of himself, a huge part of him. He is lacking something, yet he still retains a shitload of power. And when rearranging himself, he is not fat nor skinny; he is ripped, he is strong-looking. He looks like what he wanted to be when absorbing the Kaioshin.
When he reverts back to his original self, he is a child. He is freed somehow, and the absorptions no longer cloud his self-perception.

I don't fully support this take. It's not airtight, and I don't even think I remember it correctly, but I always liked the fact that Buu might mold himself according to how he "feels".

[Kid Buu]

I do think it's interesting that Evil Buu is the only version not to be pink. Really adds to that "off shoot" feeling.

[DanielSSJ]

I do think it's interesting that Evil Buu is the only version not to be pink. Really adds to that "off shoot" feeling.

No idea who chose these colors, but I did find official art that depicts skinny Boo pink like the other forms, one of them being from Daizenshuu 4:

Spoiler:

[Kid Buu]

I do think it's interesting that Evil Buu is the only version not to be pink. Really adds to that "off shoot" feeling.

No idea who chose these colors, but I did find official art that depicts skinny Boo pink like the other forms, one of them being from Daizenshuu 4:

Spoiler:

Can't see those images as imgur is blocked in the UK.

That said I could totally see Toriyama intended Evil to be pink and Toei just doing their own thing, like with Bulma's hair.

[DanielSSJ]

Oh that's lame, sorry

[PhantomSaiyan]

Pink Evil Buu is so cursed man

[Kid Buu]

Oh that's lame, sorry

https://imgbb.com/ is free and works for UK users if you got some free time you can upload there.

[DanielSSJ]

https://imgbb.com/ is free and works for UK users if you got some free time you can upload there.

Try these:

Spoiler:

[Kid Buu]

https://imgbb.com/ is free and works for UK users if you got some free time you can upload there.

Try these:

Spoiler:

Yeah that works, thanks!

Evil Buu in pink just looks wrong lol. Maybe I'm too used to the grey version.

[Supaman9g]

I think Toriyama shifted his narrative direction between chapters 507 and 508.
The author was initially leaning toward a form that was stronger and more muscular than Super Buu.
He ended up pivoting toward a form that was weaker and smaller than Super Buu.
And he justifies this change of direction through Kibitoshin, the South Supreme Kai, and the Grand Supreme Kai (Dai Kaioshin). It's a last-minute retcon that he cobbled together on the fly, which led to the endless Kid Buu vs. Buuhan and Kid Buu vs. Super Buu debates.

This hypothesis is based on Toriyama's writing process AND an analysis of the end of chapter 507 and the beginning of chapter 508.

To summarize, chapter 507 ends like this.


And chapter 508 begins like this.


I imagine Toriyama was heading toward an extra plot twist featuring a muscular Buu who was stronger than Super Buu, which could pose a threat to Ultimate Gohan, who had just been rescued.
By the time he finished the chapter, he had in mind that on the Z-Team's side, there were Vegeta, Goku, Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan, while Buu was all alone.
So, he needed a Buu stronger than Super Buu.
Then, Toriyama changed his plans by reducing the number of characters, leaving only Goku and Vegeta on the Z-Team's side. Consequently, he had to scale down Buu's power.
Otherwise, he could have gone straight from Super Buu to Kid Buu by inventing a different justification.
Instead, he ends a chapter on a muscular Buu and starts the next chapter by simply writing that muscular Buu off.
I’m not saying that the muscular Buu was intended to be the final form, but rather that the author simply had yet another plot twist in mind with the muscular form, before deciding not to go down that road and shortening the story to lead it toward its final act.
All of a sudden, between two chapters, Toriyama changed his mind.
Even Goku and Vegeta's reactions are retconned accordingly.
And we go from this reaction in chapter 507...


...To this reaction in chapter 508.

[Hellspawn28]

I think had Super Buu turn back into Grey Buu, there would be big debate on who is the strongest buu. Kid Buu itself makes no sense given that removing Fat Buu should have turn Super Buu back into Grey Buu.

I meant to say "there would no big debate". My ADHD sucks when it comes to writing.

[daniel1]

This is the last post I'm going to make on this forum. I have a life and no interest in being a part of this echo chamber. So let's go through these self-proclaimed "debunks." Remember that I asked for civility and you brought this upon yourself.

First: Supaman wrote this and provided a picture from Dragon Ball: Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume:

I think this is a lie.
If it were true, how could he interpret this page as specifically referring to Majin Buu's Kid Buu form?

At the time of this discussion (essentially a year ago), I did not have any reference to this page (I do now), and so I replied saying as much:

I don't reference this page even once.

Supaman, as always, completely misunderstood this very simple exchange. For whatever reason, he thought I was claiming that I didn't reference something from a completely different book:

Ooooh Dan… a lie… again

Supaman then shared a private conversation we had where I was more than fair to him. Shall I show everyone how you made a complete fool of yourself in Hedge's Discord channel with your claims that Bardock never appearing in the original manga or that Toriyama didn't base any of his villains on his editors?

His next "debunk" : he didn't even point to the correct scans in the following image that he created. The correct scans are below the paragraph in the picture. This is such an embarrassing mistake to make if your goal was to discredit me. Furthermore, the selective underlining is indicative of your staggering bias. That book does not favor Kid Buu nor Buuhan, so I split the point. My choice to do this was fair and I stand by it. No one could ever expect you to even attempt to be unbiased.



Then Supaman demonstrated that he doesn't understand context at all, despite Dragon Ball being written in a language that relies upon context.

But he doesn't validate the point because the green section refers to Evil Buu in general. He believes that Evil Buu = Kid Buu.
So, he considers Buuhan and Kid Buu equal in the Chozenshuu (0.5 points each) and gives the point to Kid Buu in the Daizenshuu, where only the green section is present.
Except that when we zoom out, we get this :

I've had a response to this in my deep dive for years, before this thread even existed. Since it's clear that only a handful of the commenters in this discussion about my deep dive have actually read my deep dive, here is the section:

A counter-argument that was brought to me is that, for example with Battle 184, it is referring to “Majin Buu (Evil)” and Super Buu is actually included in that, i.e. all of the evil forms are treated as one. This is partially correct. However, this argument is wrong for two reasons. The first is that it ignores the contextual, visual clue that Battle 184 is specific to Kid Buu. For example, battles 125 and 126 are described as simply “vs. Freeza,” but we know Freeza is using different forms here based on the pictures. Similarly, battles 136, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 146, and 147 all just say “vs. Cell,” but we know from the pictures that these are different forms of Cell. Only Battle 148 makes the distinction with “Resurrected Cell.” As I explained at the start of this article, context is important. The other reason this argument is wrong is because when Japanese text refers to Kid Buu as “Evil Buu,” the localization team will sometimes translate this text as “Majin Buu (Pure)” or “Kid Buu” so that English-speaking audiences understand. As stated in the first section, English speakers often think of the lanky, gray Buu when we read “Evil Buu.” Dragon Ball Official Site provides at least two examples of this: the May 21, 2025 Toriyama Archives post (in both Japanese and English), and Uub’s Character Showcase, where he is described as the purified soul of the “pint-sized pink peril” in English and the “reincarnation of the evil Majin Buu” in Japanese.

Supaman then wrote something deeply unserious (unhinged, frankly) but is indicative of his obsession over me and his inability to actually debate. For further proof of this, you can even watch him get destroyed in a live debate here.

Our friend Dan is a fraud who follows the sacred code of the Kid Buu-ists

Supaman's next point was a deeply embarrassing misunderstanding of how Occam's Razor works. He genuinely believes Occam's Razor means that if enough people believe something to be true that it's true.

There are two hypotheses: the minority interpretation (Kid Buu > Buuhan) and the majority interpretation (Buuhan > Kid Buu).

1/ If the minority is correct.
For this hypothesis to be true, we must assume:
That Toriyama intended to show Kid Buu > Buuhan but expressed it poorly or left a significant ambiguity.
That for almost 30 years, the vast majority of readers misunderstood his story.
That only a few readers, far more insightful than the rest of the world, managed to uncover the true message.
This hypothesis therefore relies on multiple assumptions: a writing error by Toriyama during the Buu arc, a widespread misunderstanding across the globe, and an "elite" group of readers with superior insight. While possible, this requires a much more complex interpretative effort than Hypothesis 2.

2/ If the majority is correct.
For this hypothesis, we only need to assume:
That Toriyama told his story clearly and understandably.
That the majority of readers correctly interpreted the narrative as intended.
This hypothesis is far simpler and aligns better with what we know about Toriyama and his storytelling approach.

Besides the reply I gave him last year, I actually address this idea in my deep dive as well:

A power-scaler’s personal definition of strength doesn’t outweigh the author’s. Power-scaling catchphrases like “feats > statements” are not actually useful for understanding in-franchise debates, such as Kid Buu vs. Buuhan, because they impose external standards for measuring internal strength differences. In the case of Dragon Ball, Toriyama, Shueisha, Toei, Bird Studio, and Capsule Corporation Tokyo define the power dynamics used and those internal choices are not open to reinterpretation through external metrics. Popular fan or power-scaling interpretations do not override the intent nor the authority of the creators of Dragon Ball. If a fan interpretation contradicts what is explicitly stated dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of times across multiple mediums, then that fan interpretation cannot be considered valid, no matter how widespread or popular it is.

Appeals to modern online consensus over which Buu is the strongest are also not methodologically sound. Polls conducted on YouTube, Reddit, Facebook, etc. represent non-random self-selecting samples of highly engaged fans — not the original and intended readership of Dragon Ball (Japanese boys aged roughly 7 to 15 years old). These modern fan communities are also shaped by existing discourse on this debate, creating echo chambers and feedback loops that reinforce whatever the dominant interpretation may be over time. It is impossible to say with certainty what most fans believe and even if a majority of today’s fans favor one position, that does not retroactively determine authorial intent from the mid-1990s. Toriyama’s intent can only be evaluated through his own statements, his editor’s statements, the manga’s internal logic, and official content by Shueisha — not through YouTube polls61 or Reddit upvotes.

With that said, while Buuhan being the strongest Buu is certainly a popular opinion online, there is no reliable correlation between an opinion being popular and its correctness. Early interpretations, especially when they are promoted by prominent members of a fandom, can shape discourse for years (or in our case, decades) to come. In social settings like a fandom, making a claim early and repeating it often is an effective strategy for controlling discussion. Here is an example of a prominent Dragon Ball content creator making the claim that Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu early and often: one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and eight. The reason this works is due to cognitive effects called the primacy effect, anchoring, and the illusory truth effect. The first claim people hear, regardless of its validity, tends to stick disproportionately in their minds simply because they heard it first (the primacy effect). At the same time, it sets the boundaries on how a topic can be discussed (anchoring). Repetition further increases the perceived credibility of a claim by making a claim appear true simply because it is heard so often (illusory truth effect). These techniques are widely used in politics where early framing and repeated claims can shape the public’s perception of an issue. In fandom spaces with highly engaged fans, such as a Dragon Ball power-scaling community, this creates feedback loops where the same interpretations are echoed until they become “common knowledge,” even when some of these ideas greatly diverge from the consistent messaging from Toriyama and Shueisha. In this particular case, that Kid Buu is the strongest Buu.


Then when I challenged Supaman to share a single example of me using a "fraudulent" translation, he shared an image that we both literally agree on the interpretation of, lmao. The caption I wrote in the image HE shared even shows this, lol.

This one, for example.

I actually even updated the caption (again before this discussion even existed) to make it clearer. I wrote:

"Weekly Shōnen Jump 1995 Issue 19 page 46. “The power of the entire universe converges!! Charging at Buu in his ultimate form!!” Curiously, it suggests Goku absorbs the power of the Genki-dama. This wasn’t clear enough for some people, so Goku is the subject here."

But Supaman would never willingly acknowledge this because his bias won't allow him. That's why he uses 2 year old screenshots instead of just pointing to what the deep dive actually says right now.

Later, at the end of my deep dive, I make a guess about how this debate started. I even jokingly discredit my own guess by calling it "my little conspiracy theory." Again, Supaman completely misreads this section though. I wrote (it's since been a little reworded) "If you look at the evidence between 1995 and 2003, ALL of it supports Kid Buu, except Daizenshū 5..." Literally anyone else would have understood I was referring to actual evidence here, as in guidebooks, interview statements, etc. I clearly am not referring to fan opinions as being evidence for either of them. But, of course, Supaman doesn't understand that, so he wrote this:

Yet another assumption that reveals both his reasoning bias and his lack of knowledge about the Dragon Ball fandom.
Dan's assumption


Versus
Reality

This is a small selection of Japanese forums and websites.
The vast majority of Japanese fans clearly understand that Buuhan is stronger than Kid Buu. They also distinguish between the anime and the manga.

Ignoring that I clearly was not referring to fan opinions favoring one form of Buu or another, the dates on the websites in his own image don't match the time frame given: 1995 to 2003. They are all from the 2010s and 2020s. Can he literally get anything right?

Then after Mike publicly reprimanded Supaman for his tone, Supaman claimed this:

translate Japanese myself, and I have asked other fluent Japanese speakers as well as native Japanese people. Dan was informed of this, as were his French pro-Kid Buu friends. Even they told him that his translation was incorrect.
Below are screenshots of conversations with native Japanese speakers.

In my original interpretation of the "fraudulent" translation shown earlier, the Japanese translator I paid to translate the scan translated it as meaning Buu was in his strongest form since "Genki-dama Goku" is not a "form." Roughly three months later (around January 2025), I was informed it was wrong and immediately changed it. Normally I would write now that Supaman is obviously aware that I updated the translation since he shared a screenshot of it, but he has repeatedly demonstrated in this discussion that he doesn't read.

True to form, Supaman withholds key information that hurts his bias. He wrote:

Takao Koyama also said, "The Majin Buu who absorbed Ultimate Gohan is probably the strongest." He reiterated twice that he considers Buuhan to be the most powerful form and also shared two online rankings he agreed with—both of which placed Kid Buu below even Super Buu.

What he's not telling you is that a year later in that same Twitter thread, this exchange happened:

"Please note that these are my personal opinions and have not been approved by Toriyama-sensei. — Takao Koyama after a year of further questions from fans and media coverage, November 5, 2022

So Kid Buu is the strongest Buu? —@Kenji_Toon, November 6, 2022

I think so. — Takao Koyama, November 6, 2022"

Then Supaman claims this:

Pro-Kid Buu supporters rely on filler to defend their viewpoint, even though those fillers contradict the rest of the story.
They justify this by claiming, "The anime is also Dragon Ball," downplaying the fact that the fillers were written without knowledge of the manga’s ending.

You guessed it! He's wrong again! Kid Buu dies in chapter 516, which was published on April 25, 1995. The episode when Kid Buu first appears (NOT when he dies) came out on August 23, 1995—a whole FOUR MONTHS later! Think about the Freeza Saga, which infamously "caught up" to the manga. The manga chapters essentially came out exactly three months ahead of the anime at that time. With Kid Buu, the entire fight ended in the manga, and it would still be another FOUR months until he even appeared in the anime. The screenwriters were fully aware of how the fight went before adding those lines and as usual, Supaman is just inventing falsehoods to try and make his ridiculous assertions seem reasonable.

The emergence of this belief in France after 2015 is directly linked to an influencer who popularized the idea. This aligns with how beliefs spread on the internet—where an idea can go viral if it resonates emotionally with people.

Supaman is withholding this person's name because he doesn't want to drive traffic to his YouTube channel and have people see the live debate he gets destroyed in. The person's name is Hedge and here is the debate again.

Pro-Kid Buu supporters seem to analyze the work with a biased perspective, selectively picking elements that support their view.

I find this above statement by Supaman to be an incredible example of "every accusation is a confession." Especially considering in this very discussion, and which I showed, he did exactly this. In fact, I'll show it again for posterity.



Nice red lines, pal. You're certainly not "selectively picking elements that support your view," right? Lmao

Here again we see that Supaman attempts to remove all context from something in order to make it appear ridiculous. But the fact of the matter is that in this scene, Goku and Dende are discussing Uub. Uub is specifically the reincarnation of Kid Buu. Again, this is covered in my deep dive. I mean seriously, the second image literally shows us Kid Buu, so any reasonable person would infer they're obviously talking about him. Supaman consistently and purposefully tries to obfuscate obvious context clues like this, just like with the Chozenshu/Daizenshu scans.

The separation Dende refers to corresponds to this:

Incredibly, Supaman tries to claim Dende was actually referring to Evil Buu instead of... oh I don't know... maybe the character literally drawn in Dende's speech bubble?

He then claims this:

That’s literally the title of the chapter. There is no third Buu.

As I show at the beginning of my deep dive, Kid Buu is sometimes referred to as a third Buu. And this is even in the manga and said by "Evil Buu" himself (see the image below). As always, Supaman is wrong.



Now we see Supaman throwing around words he doesn't understand:

Your entire Gish gallop was debunked on page 2 of this thread.

My deep dive is demonstrably not a "gish gallop." Do you even know what a gish gallop is? A person doing a gish gallop isn't inviting discussion or a debate. They're attempting to overwhelm their opponent with nonsense so that they can't react. I wrote a DEEP DIVE. By the very nature of it being a DEEP DIVE, it's going to be long. It's not a shallow dive, lol. It's genuinely hilarious to me that you entered a discussion about a deep dive and your complaint is essentially that it's too long for you to debate against. In it, I provide the exact book and page numbers for literally everything I cite. That's an invitation for fact checking. I also don't even attempt to shut down people debating me. If you look at the comments, maybe half but probably more than half are people disagreeing with me. Wait a second, a lot of people have actually had the ability to read my deep dive and then debate me on it... Ah, I see what's happening... For someone of your capacity, it's a gish gallop.

Here is my private exchange with Takao Koyama, which we will soon publish on a French website dedicated to Dragon Ball.

I genuinely can't believe that you are still harassing this old man.

[Kaboom]

This is the last post I'm going to make on this forum.

Okay, bye.