Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

So you reckon Infinite Zamasu would get crushed by any serious fighter in the ToP?

No, he wouldn't, because he's immortal. Jiren wouldn't be able to kill him, however he'd have higher firepower than Zamasu. As per usual in Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball, New Antagonist > Previous Saga.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Actually, I think DBS has sorta dabbled a bit in the idea of not every ending antagonist being stronger than the last.

Hit wasn't as strong in raw power as Golden Freeza and got by via his powerful abilities, and Cell Max was evidently wasn't stronger than Broly in his incomplete state despite Broly also being a berserker.

And notably, Jiren and Broly remain relevant candidates of mention as of DBS:SH alongside Cell Max and the rest of the Gods of Destruction. To me, this speaks of more relative parity in the overall strength and threat level of these latest opponents instead of each subsequent one being leagues stronger than the last.

[Miracles]

That's just because he can defuse them, not because he's stronger

You need to damage the individual for Spirit Fission to work.

Vegeta wasn't doing any damage when he first started attacking Moro, but he was hitting him. So being able to hit your opponent is the requirement.

Obviously Vegeta was doing damage, otherwise Moro wouldn't have lost energy in the first place. We see Vegeta do it to planet Moro too. Then we see Moro ask Vegeta that his technique [Spirit Fission] requires damage and then he said he won't make the same mistake. So instead of taking Vegeta's punches he dodged them even when he was fused with 7-3.

[QuakingStar]

You need to damage the individual for Spirit Fission to work.

Vegeta wasn't doing any damage when he first started attacking Moro, but he was hitting him. So being able to hit your opponent is the requirement.

Obviously Vegeta was doing damage, otherwise Moro wouldn't have lost energy in the first place. We see Vegeta do it to planet Moro too. Then we see Moro ask Vegeta that his technique [Spirit Fission] requires damage and then he said he won't make the same mistake. So instead of taking Vegeta's punches he dodged them even when he was fused with 7-3.

He simply needed to land a hit, and 1hp damage is still damage. Vegeta was much weaker than Moro.

[Miracles]

Vegeta wasn't doing any damage when he first started attacking Moro, but he was hitting him. So being able to hit your opponent is the requirement.

Obviously Vegeta was doing damage, otherwise Moro wouldn't have lost energy in the first place. We see Vegeta do it to planet Moro too. Then we see Moro ask Vegeta that his technique [Spirit Fission] requires damage and then he said he won't make the same mistake. So instead of taking Vegeta's punches he dodged them even when he was fused with 7-3.

He simply needed to land a hit, and 1hp damage is still damage. Vegeta was much weaker than Moro.

That is correct. Meaning all Vegeta's punches were causing damage regardless of how minimal.
Remember the very first punch Vegeta landed Gohan said "that barely had any effect."

However, with Gogeta/Vegetto Moro using Spirit Fission with his merge with 7-3 rendered the fusion of the Saiyan's "useless."
Meaning it was overkill. Moro 7-3 would cause tons of damage. Moro already needed fusion to fight him before he absorbed 7-3.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Piccolo's dialogue when talking about Fusion is basically already a narrative concession that Moro is weaker than Gogeta/Vegito.

Direct contact is not the only way to activate Spirit Fission. Vegeta was using it just by blasting Earth Moro's body with Ki.

Hitting Gogeta/Vegito with some Magic attack likely activates the conditions for Fission to activate.

So even if Gogeta/Vegito and Moro both have Spirit Fission, Moro can just be way better at applying it, or he may only have to apply it once to separate Gogeta/Vegito.

[FPSSJ4_Goku]

Hi everyone, I have come to bestow you guys with a YouTube video by a guy who decided to calculate the power levels for every character after the Freeza arc, using real world physics and goes on for over an hour. And trust me, it gets insane. By the time Super rolls around, he introduces something new called God units, because the numbers gods ludicrously high.

The link: https://youtu.be/AjK8npzV5Jc?is=f9oVKtjluBJYJvp_

Give you guys' thoughts on his analysis

[Yuji]

It seems that base Goku vs Freeza in ROF is still going to be in the arc, but now Goku actually goes SSG so there's no "Saiyan beyond God" workaround.

I wonder how the powerscaling is gonna work. Base RF Goku = SSG is probably what will fans still assume is the case, but considering Goku can use SSG now, it's just fucking stupid to think he absorbed SSG and then can stack SSG again on top of it, and then SS on top of SSG. Just go on infinitely, why not?

I wonder if Freeza is still gonna beat Gohan in his first form. I guess the only real on-screen scaling would then be base Goku > Gohan & the others. That makes him stronger than a rusty Super Saiyan and underwhelming Piccolo (which they've always been portraying the base Saiyans as stronger than since the Boo arc), but not necessarily SSG tier.

Copy Vegeta if it's cut saves the scaling for the anime.

In any case, Trunks matching Goku in the anime is still a ridiculous power boost for him. Unless we scrap the whole "BoG base Goku weaker than Namek Freeza" thing which I'm more and more inclined to do.

[Koitsukai]

People thought Gohan was stacking SS on top of Ultimate in GT while still being fodder, so I wouldn't be surprised if people think Goku is stacking SSG on top of SSG.

[QuakingStar]

People thought Gohan was stacking SS on top of Ultimate in GT while still being fodder, so I wouldn't be surprised if people think Goku is stacking SSG on top of SSG.

I recall an interview or the GT Perfect Guide saying he never stopped training between Z and GT and GT treats Ultimate like a new base form, not a transformation. So in GT he is using SS with it. Only in another interview did they imply he becomes an "Ultimate Warrior" before the Shadow Dragon Saga starts I believe.

[Koitsukai]

People thought Gohan was stacking SS on top of Ultimate in GT while still being fodder, so I wouldn't be surprised if people think Goku is stacking SSG on top of SSG.

I recall an interview or the GT Perfect Guide saying he never stopped training between Z and GT and GT treats Ultimate like a new base form, not a transformation. So in GT he is using SS with it. Only in another interview did they imply he becomes an "Ultimate Warrior" before the Shadow Dragon Saga starts I believe.

GT writer Atsushi Maekawa contradicted that guide:

For instance, in Gohan’s case, there was apparently so much as an “Ultimate Gohan” concept in Dragon Ball Z, where he was a super-warrior with might surpassing Goku, but in GT, he’s a scholar who’s given up fighting almost entirely. But for someone who had given up fighting like that to return to the front lines, I thought that naturally there needed to be quite a bit of drama involved.
Around the Super 17 arc in the animation, he came back as a super-warrior all of a sudden, but actually, I personally wanted to put in a heroic episode telling the reason he started fighting again.

This is why I don't put much stock in ancillary material, as we can see they had no clue what the writers were going for. And GT sure was clear about Gohan, with his design, poor performances and being lumped with the rest of the hybrid slackers (as the strongest but still in that group).

In any case, it'd be a huge disservice to Gohan to have him be Ultimate + SS + aided by SS Goten and yet unable to lay a finger on his 10 year old father in base form. That would be worse than what RoF did to him.
A Gohan that never stopped training and can stack SS on top of Ultimate would eat Adult SS3 Goku alive just with his Ultimate form or even just SS2. Imagine what he'd do to slacker SS Goten.

[Yuji]

How strong are we saying M05 Cooler is? Final form too, but I'm more interested in his base form. He was getting rocked by base Goku.

50% Freeza, 20%, 10%, 5%?

[DanielSSJ]

How strong are we saying M05 Cooler is? Final form too, but I'm more interested in his base form. He was getting rocked by base Goku.

50% Freeza, 20%, 10%, 5%?

Given we never saw Coola bulk up like Freeza did at 100% before he transformed, you could easily argue that Coola never used his full power in that form to begin with. He could genuinely be equivalent to anything from 5~100% of Freeza's power. For Coola's 5th form, I'd probably put it somewhere in the range of 1.5x~2x stronger than Freeza at full power.

[angeldreamZ004]

There isn't also the possibility that Base Goku in that movie is stronger than Base Goku in late namek arc? That's why he outmached Coola before the transformation in comparison to Freeza? Just a thought though, and Coola's final form could already be his 100%

[QuakingStar]

There isn't also the possibility that Base Goku in that movie is stronger than Base Goku in late namek arc? That's why he outmached Coola before the transformation in comparison to Freeza? Just a thought though, and Coola's final form could already be his 100%

Goku was in fact stronger than his Namek self in the beginning of the movie. He then gets injured badly by Cooler and is given a Senzu bean giving him another large jump in power. Cooler's Super Evolution gave him a PL of 470,000,000. Coolers normal state is weaker than Freeza's normal state, but it was never said that it was by a lot, it could have very well been a difference of 1,000 or 1,000,000. Frieza had 120,000,000 at his FP. But like was said already, Cooler never tried to enter a power stressed state to reach his "Full Power" and it was likely because he knew of the downsides to it and instead he went and trained to discover the Super Evolution that he uses against Goku.

[Yuji]

There isn't also the possibility that Base Goku in that movie is stronger than Base Goku in late namek arc? That's why he outmached Coola before the transformation in comparison to Freeza? Just a thought though, and Coola's final form could already be his 100%

Goku was in fact stronger than his Namek self in the beginning of the movie. He then gets injured badly by Cooler and is given a Senzu bean giving him another large jump in power. Cooler's Super Evolution gave him a PL of 470,000,000. Coolers normal state is weaker than Freeza's normal state, but it was never said that it was by a lot, it could have very well been a difference of 1,000 or 1,000,000. Frieza had 120,000,000 at his FP. But like was said already, Cooler never tried to enter a power stressed state to reach his "Full Power" and it was likely because he knew of the downsides to it and instead he went and trained to discover the Super Evolution that he uses against Goku.

Even if we grant Coola's BP and we extrapolate Goku to be 600 or even 700M at Super Saiyan, that's still less than 15M in base.

[Koitsukai]

I just watched the movie last night.

There are weird things, like Gohan being such a weakling when he faced every Freeza form but now Dore and Sauza do with him whatever they want. Krilin performs better than Gohan vs Sauza. It wouldn't be insane if we were talking about the Gohan that fough the Tokusentai.
Piccolo takes way too long to take out the Kikosentai when they should not be on par with Freeza's 2nd form. It would be just fine if he wasn't fused with Nail, though.

Goku's base should be around 5M, and he doesn't really beat Cooler, the fight is dead even with Goku gaining some edge before Cooler choses to transform. I'm assuming Goku low-grade stealth-kaiokened to be able to land some hits. Like KKx4 or 5.
He is seen using KK and failing, and then tries, like on Namek, a KK-KHH, I'd like to think he tried KKx10 and then KKx20 +KHH. I can see Goku being 50M and failing to land a hit and then Cooler swimming through a +100M kamehameha.

Cooler's resting power probably is around 20-30M, Cooler transforms after what happened to Freeza, to be on the safe side. His FP is uncertain in that form, maybe he was around 80M, but his 5th form should be comfortably above 100M. So, 175-200M.
And SS Goku with 250M since he is literally untouchable.