Could Piccolo win 25th Tenkaichi Budokai?

[coola]

If Majin Buu stuff didn't happen, Kaioshin and Kibito didn't enter, Goku, Gohan and Vegeta didn't turn SSJ like promised. Would Piccolo win 25th TB? Unless Goku could use 40X Kaio-ken, i don't think he could beat Piccolo without turning SSJ.

[DanielSSJ]

Potentially. To be honest, the fact that the Saiyans (especially Vegeta) don't put up a fight against the 'No Super Saiyans' rule despite being in competition with Piccolo and #18 it's part of why I don't think the Freeza arc's 50x multiplier is in play anymore. When Toriyama said that Super Saiyan "felt" more like a 10x boost, this is what I think he was talking about.

The power scale's been flattened and everyone in base form is more or less on the same playing field.

[TobyS]

Potentially. To be honest, the fact that the Saiyans (especially Vegeta) don't put up a fight against the 'No Super Saiyans' rule despite being in competition with Piccolo and #18 it's part of why I don't think the Freeza arc's 50x multiplier is in play anymore. When Toriyama said that Super Saiyan "felt" more like a 10x boost, this is what I think he was talking about.

The power scale's been flattened and everyone in base form is more or less on the same playing field.

If it dropped to 10 then Kaioken would have made a comeback especially if they could go above 20x now.

It had to be more than twice 20x Kaioken in the freeza arc and everything in the android arc is about surpassing super Saiyan.

In the boo arc piccolo puts majin vegeta in the same ballpark as SS2 Gohan.

There's no room or evidence for the multiplier dropping.

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with wanking the base Saiyan it's cringe.

[DanielSSJ]

If it dropped to 10 then Kaioken would have made a comeback especially if they could go above 20x now.

It had to be more than twice 20x Kaioken in the freeza arc and everything in the android arc is about surpassing super Saiyan.

In the boo arc piccolo puts majin vegeta in the same ballpark as SS2 Gohan.

There's no room or evidence for the multiplier dropping.

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with wanking the base Saiyan it's cringe.

My take is simply that power levels, multipliers, numerical comparisons of any kind simply don't exist after the Freeza arc. The Saiyan-Freeza battle powers didn't make sense with the material that came before, and they're irrelevant to what comes after. Toriyama said Super Saiyan didn't feel that big as he drew it, and I feel that's reflected in the writing. Toriyama also wrote Goku choosing a weaker, more balanced Super Saiyan form over more powerful, but flawed forms in the Cell arc, and then went on to reiterate the same point regarding Super Saiyan 2 and 3, post-Battle of Gods.