Could Piccolo win 25th Tenkaichi Budokai?

[coola]

If Majin Buu stuff didn't happen, Kaioshin and Kibito didn't enter, Goku, Gohan and Vegeta didn't turn SSJ like promised. Would Piccolo win 25th TB? Unless Goku could use 40X Kaio-ken, i don't think he could beat Piccolo without turning SSJ.

[DanielSSJ]

Potentially. To be honest, the fact that the Saiyans (especially Vegeta) don't put up a fight against the 'No Super Saiyans' rule despite being in competition with Piccolo and #18 it's part of why I don't think the Freeza arc's 50x multiplier is in play anymore. When Toriyama said that Super Saiyan "felt" more like a 10x boost, this is what I think he was talking about.

The power scale's been flattened and everyone in base form is more or less on the same playing field.

[TobyS]

Potentially. To be honest, the fact that the Saiyans (especially Vegeta) don't put up a fight against the 'No Super Saiyans' rule despite being in competition with Piccolo and #18 it's part of why I don't think the Freeza arc's 50x multiplier is in play anymore. When Toriyama said that Super Saiyan "felt" more like a 10x boost, this is what I think he was talking about.

The power scale's been flattened and everyone in base form is more or less on the same playing field.

If it dropped to 10 then Kaioken would have made a comeback especially if they could go above 20x now.

It had to be more than twice 20x Kaioken in the freeza arc and everything in the android arc is about surpassing super Saiyan.

In the boo arc piccolo puts majin vegeta in the same ballpark as SS2 Gohan.

There's no room or evidence for the multiplier dropping.

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with wanking the base Saiyan it's cringe.

[DanielSSJ]

If it dropped to 10 then Kaioken would have made a comeback especially if they could go above 20x now.

It had to be more than twice 20x Kaioken in the freeza arc and everything in the android arc is about surpassing super Saiyan.

In the boo arc piccolo puts majin vegeta in the same ballpark as SS2 Gohan.

There's no room or evidence for the multiplier dropping.

I don't know why fans are so obsessed with wanking the base Saiyan it's cringe.

My take is simply that power levels, multipliers, numerical comparisons of any kind simply don't exist after the Freeza arc. The Saiyan-Freeza battle powers didn't make sense with the material that came before, and they're irrelevant to what comes after. Toriyama said Super Saiyan didn't feel that big as he drew it, and I feel that's reflected in the writing. Toriyama also wrote Goku choosing a weaker, more balanced Super Saiyan form over more powerful, but flawed forms in the Cell arc, and then went on to reiterate the same point regarding Super Saiyan 2 and 3, post-Battle of Gods.

[Koitsukai]

I don't see it. Not just because BoG states Goku cannot beat Freeza in base, but in the previous arc, Piccolo grew a lot in what would be his base form while the others trained their SS forms. For seven years, the saiyans trained to unlock new forms, and Piccolo improved, if at all, his base form, so I don't see how Piccolo would lose against base saiyans.

[dragon boss z]

If we are to believe Piccolo, Shin should win. Shin was also able to temporarily freeze ssj2 Gohan. Even if he can't put the Z fighters down, he might be able to freeze and throw them out of bounds before they can break free.

Edit: nevermind, Shin is excluded. Yes, Piccolo has a chance. It depends if you think base saiyans>Shin>Piccolo, which the anime arguably points towards, or Frieza>base saiyans, which is what Beerus claims.

[DanielSSJ]

If we are to believe Piccolo, Shin should win. Shin was also able to temporarily freeze ssj2 Gohan. Even if he can't put the Z fighters down, he might be able to freeze and throw them out of bounds before they can break free.

Part of OPs premise is that Shin and Kibito don't enter.

[dragon boss z]

If we are to believe Piccolo, Shin should win. Shin was also able to temporarily freeze ssj2 Gohan. Even if he can't put the Z fighters down, he might be able to freeze and throw them out of bounds before they can break free.

Part of OPs premise is that Shin and Kibito don't enter.

Oh oops, my bad. Then yes, it's definitely possible Piccolo can win. If we take Vegeta's statement seriously, that would only scale him above pre 7 year time skip Piccolo, not Buu saga Piccolo. Though if Shin is legit stronger than Piccolo, and base Vegeta/Goku are stronger than Shin, then Piccolo is screwed. But I would argue Shin might be physically below all of them, and might only be above with his special kai powers.

[TobyS]

Yeah it's nonsense, piccolo puts majin vegeta around cell games Gohan.

So you have to arbitrarily believe that base suddenly got a trillion times stronger exactly in proportion to how ss2s multiplier shrunk and there is zero evidence for either of those things happening.

You have to only read the our dimensions are too different statement from piccolo and ignore the part where Goku asks if shin is that strong and piccolo says yes.

You have to pretend that when dabra says the saiyans are stronger than piccolo he's talking about their base even though all of them are suppressed to zero so he's clearly mentioning hidden power.

You have to mistake shins majin PTSD, desire to fight together to make boo wakening injuries and the implied inability to sense majin peoples power level as shin being weaker than a guy who boasts about 10GS which is something kaiosama could do, ignoring his durability feats against boo (and zamasu)

It just relies on so much willful misinterpreting based on a desire to wank the saiyans out of some weird obsessed fan obligation or worse for power scaling for other franchise versus debates.

[Yuji]

All of the Boo arc and post-Boo arc material seems to point to base Saiyans > Piccolo, outside of the lone BoG Freeza statement (Super Boo's absorption too, arguably). But even if we take that Piccolo > base Saiyas as absolute law, I still think Kaioken x20 Goku is a tough match-up.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioken 40x? Kaioken x20 should be enough. Piccolo is not a rival to SSJs in the Buu Saga.

[DanielSSJ]

Kaioken 40x? Kaioken x20 should be enough. Piccolo is not a rival to SSJs in the Buu Saga.

Would it even be safe to use a Kaioken x20, though? Goku had to toughen his body specifically with advanced gravity when he first learned the Kaioken and when he expanded the range of multiplication that he could handle, and he hasn't done anything like that since the Freeza arc.