Non-thread-worthy discussions

[QuakingStar]

Yeah there are in fact a lot of stupid " fans" in the fandom and I'm very happy none of them are writing for this series. Toyotaro is the best it will get after Toriyama.

and to be perfectly clear, I don't really care about others opinions on what I think should have happened instead and I don't care if you don't care about that. That being said, nothing can or will ever change my mind about SSB, I genuinely believe it was yet another mistake Toriyama made and would be too late to to retcon it out anyway.

I also know they purposely don't mention multipliers anymore, mostly. For Goku to have a PL of 3 mil and win against Frieza's 120 mil just to match Frieza he would have needed to be 40x stronger. We could say he matched Frieza and Freeza's power dropping is why Frieza lost and it still doesn't change that SS is a 40x multiplier at minimum in the story.

[super michael]

Yeah there are in fact a lot of stupid " fans" in the fandom and I'm very happy none of them are writing for this series. Toyotaro is the best it will get after Toriyama.

and to be perfectly clear, I don't really care about others opinions on what I think should have happened instead and I don't care if you don't care about that. That being said, nothing can or will ever change my mind about SSB, I genuinely believe it was yet another mistake Toriyama made and would be too late to to retcon it out anyway.

I also know they purposely don't mention multipliers anymore, mostly. For Goku to have a PL of 3 mil and win against Frieza's 120 mil just to match Frieza he would have needed to be 40x stronger. We could say he matched Frieza and Freeza's power dropping is why Frieza lost and it still doesn't change that SS is a 40x multiplier at minimum in the story.

I am happy with DBS manga, sure it isn't perfect but I still enjoyed it.

Officially in the manga the last known power level mentioned about Freeza was his second form being over 1,000,000. His first form has 530,000 stated by Freeza himself.

However SSJ Goku was stronger than when he used Kaioken 20x and Kamehameha combined. SSJ Goku was stronger than his Genki Dama.

It is good that both DBS anime and DBS manga ignored Freeza prediction that he would reach 1,300,000.

[ABED]

While the numbers are kinda cool, unfortunately, when given made up nonsensical numbers, nerds do what nerds do and turn it into math.

[JulieYBM]

I care what other people think about the arts. I come to fandom spaces to see if I might have overlooked something that I might actually agree with. I ask my friends what they think about the arts, too. I want to leave some degree of the tiniest sliver of a nugget behind about art and how cool and powerful it is in communicating the human experience. Why else are we spending our adult lives posting on silly comic and cartoon forums?

It's tough, being an optimist.

[DanielSSJ]

I kinda have my own axe to grind against Kaioken's reintroduction for different reasons. In between the releases of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama said this:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

While things didn't pan out exactly like that, this concept to me justifies why there's no godly equivalent to Super Saiyan 2 or 3: Goku and Vegeta's focus is to perfect their fundamentals and not waste energy unnecessarily on extravagant forms.

Instead his new ace in the hole is the technique that puts a HUGE burden on the body and could straight up kill you if you're not careful, which was previously abandoned because it was worse in every way compared to the Super Saiyan family of transformations. If you're gonna do all that, why not just stack 2 and 3 on top of Blue instead? I kinda have similar feelings about Vegeta's "evolved" form, especially in the anime where it's modeled after Grade 2, a form that was similarly abandoned for being inefficient and shitty.

[JulieYBM]

I kinda have my own axe to grind against Kaioken's reintroduction for different reasons. In between the releases of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama said this:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

While things didn't pan out exactly like that, this concept to me justifies why there's no godly equivalent to Super Saiyan 2 or 3: Goku and Vegeta's focus is to perfect their fundamentals and not waste energy unnecessarily on extravagant forms.

Instead his new ace in the hole is the technique that puts a HUGE burden on the body and could straight up kill you if you're not careful, which was previously abandoned because it was worse in every way compared to the Super Saiyan family of transformations. If you're gonna do all that, why not just stack 2 and 3 on top of Blue instead? I kinda have similar feelings about Vegeta's "evolved" form, especially in the anime where it's modeled after Grade 2, a form that was similarly abandoned for being inefficient and shitty.

Yeah, it's pretty insane. I don't know if we know the story behind why these decision are made yet, but I imagine the process isn't all too different from the same process used for PreCure: Bandai got ideas for toys, the production team of the animated series might be able to throw in notes, but ultimately everyone comes together and decides how and when said new toys are being revealed and used regularly in the animated series.

I very much imagine that if the production committee members had all agreed to keep the 2015 animated series running as-is then they would have eventually asked Toriyama for Super Saiyan Blue 2 and 3 somehow. It doesn't seem likely that they asked him if Blue Evolution was okay, given that it was just based on Super Saiyan Second Grade, which didn't quite have the lack of speed downside that Super Saiyan Third Grade did.

Honestly, I wish they had just kept the series going as it was, I was really enjoying how unpredictable it was lol

[DanielSSJ]

I think I wouldn't have minded Blue Evolved as much of it was literally Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3, and it was framed more like a desperation move than him breaking through his limits. Like, Super Saiyan Blue already consumes a lot of stamina, Vegeta really must be in a pinch if he's resorting to THAT.

[WittyUsername]

I distinctly remember getting the impression back in 2015, based on how SSB was described, that it was literally just the regular Super Saiyan form imbued with God ki, meaning it would be the default transformation moving forward, while SS2 and 3 would be benched altogether. Lo and behold, that turned out to not be the case. Also, as much as I do actually like SSG, bringing that form back very much seemed to contradict BoG, which suggested that it was only meant to be temporary.

Also, bringing back Kaioken always struck me as Toei aiming for cheap nostalgic fanservice. I could not care less for “Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken” or Vegeta’s Super Saiyan Blue Evolved. Mind you, I’m not big on the regular Super Saiyan Blue either, but I can accept that it exists because all the post-BoG movies have this thing about introducing a new form.

[JulieYBM]

I think I wouldn't have minded Blue Evolved as much of it was literally Super Saiyan Blue 2 or 3, and it was framed more like a desperation move than him breaking through his limits. Like, Super Saiyan Blue already consumes a lot of stamina, Vegeta really must be in a pinch if he's resorting to THAT.

I think the way that Blue Evolution evokes Second Grade does distract a lot from making it feel like Super Saiyan Blue being taken to the next level. In that regard, I think that I would feel the same way about basing the form on Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3. That being said, I think that it probably follows the logic a bit more to think of Super Saiyan God as "adding God ki to base form" and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan as being "adding God ki to the Super Saiyan form." Obviously, that invites the question of, "What if you add God ki to Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3?" My answer to that would simply be that Super Saiyan 3 alone had its flaws, so if we don't ignore those, then one would need to actually address creating an even more stamina-consuming Super Saiyan 3.

This is why just jumping to Ultra Instinct worked so much for Goku. Instead of basically giving us Blue 2 and Blue 3, we get curveball away from that to focus on a different type of God ki-based technique/form.

I dunno. Maybe I'll change my mind when I rewatch the Tournament of Power next time I have the time to do so lol

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

I kinda have my own axe to grind against Kaioken's reintroduction for different reasons. In between the releases of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama said this:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

While things didn't pan out exactly like that, this concept to me justifies why there's no godly equivalent to Super Saiyan 2 or 3: Goku and Vegeta's focus is to perfect their fundamentals and not waste energy unnecessarily on extravagant forms.

Instead his new ace in the hole is the technique that puts a HUGE burden on the body and could straight up kill you if you're not careful, which was previously abandoned because it was worse in every way compared to the Super Saiyan family of transformations. If you're gonna do all that, why not just stack 2 and 3 on top of Blue instead? I kinda have similar feelings about Vegeta's "evolved" form, especially in the anime where it's modeled after Grade 2, a form that was similarly abandoned for being inefficient and shitty.

It really should've just been base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue going forward. As much as I love the simple design, Super Saiyan God had served its place in the story and wasn't needed anymore.
Although admittedly I did really like its use in Super Broly where it was treated as this really elegant form.

[JulieYBM]

I kinda have my own axe to grind against Kaioken's reintroduction for different reasons. In between the releases of Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, Toriyama said this:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

While things didn't pan out exactly like that, this concept to me justifies why there's no godly equivalent to Super Saiyan 2 or 3: Goku and Vegeta's focus is to perfect their fundamentals and not waste energy unnecessarily on extravagant forms.

Instead his new ace in the hole is the technique that puts a HUGE burden on the body and could straight up kill you if you're not careful, which was previously abandoned because it was worse in every way compared to the Super Saiyan family of transformations. If you're gonna do all that, why not just stack 2 and 3 on top of Blue instead? I kinda have similar feelings about Vegeta's "evolved" form, especially in the anime where it's modeled after Grade 2, a form that was similarly abandoned for being inefficient and shitty.

It really should've just been base, Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue going forward. As much as I love the simple design, Super Saiyan God had served its place in the story and wasn't needed anymore.
Although admittedly I did really like its use in Super Broly where it was treated as this really elegant form.

I think Nagamine's approach to Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue really worked, although I think having so many transformations in a battle really doesn't work unless the enemy has no ability to access their full power at will, like Broly did in the 2018 film. This is why I'm such a fan of just Base, Blue, and then Ultra Instinct as this thing that Goku doesn't have any control over. Let Goku be above his Super Saiyan God form in his base form up until he can use Ultra Instinct at will, live the latter half of the battle with Moro, then just fold Blue into his base form and eventually introduce a new 'uncontrolled third form' as Ultra Instinct becomes something that Goku can use at will.

[kiarasuraru]

Blue's still my least favorite of the DBS forms, but it did briefly get us new outfits for Goku and Vegeta. I miss those outfits from the F movie.

I like new outfits, gives a sense of time passing.

I've always loved the RoF outfits and have always hated how they went back to the Z outfits just for the sake of marketing.
And then came CC Goku who perfected the fit. The black undershirt is arguably the best Goku has ever looked. Xeno Goku clothes are really high up there too.
Changing the gray for blue for Vegeta looked lame though. And Xeno Vegeta's fit is ruined by those weird black thingies on his boots and gloves.
Man, this just made me remember how mad I was back then when Vegito appeared in Zamasu because we didn't get a new outfit for him thanks to that. Heroes fixed that too and it's yet another great fit.

[super michael]

In theory if it is possible to power up their SSJ2 to the same boost as SSJ3, then it should be possible to do the same with SSJ1. We here is what we know:

Manga DBS:

Base Goku = Base Future Trunks
SSJ1 Goku = SSJ1 Future Trunks
SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2 Future Trunks
SSJ3 Goku = MSSJ2 Future Trunks



So focusing on training their SSJ1 seems like the most logical choice, even if SSJ2 and SSJ3 looks cool. Plus we know a Saiyan remain in their SSJ1 the entire time without any problem, this was demonstrated in the Cell Games.