The strength of the not-so-main fighters

[Herms]

Before the Crisis on Infinite Earths storyline in the mid 80's, Superman was an entirely separate character from what people know him as today. Back then, he really had no limits to his powers. The way things more or less worked in his comics was, he would automatically win against any opponent in any situation no matter what the odds simply because he was Superman. He had the Kryptonite thing for a weakness, but that was it…. other than that he was pretty much God (capital G).

But isn't it true that at the very, very beginning Superman wasn't anywhere near as powerful as he later became in the Pre-Crisis era? I seem to remember that originally he couldn't even fly, just make mighty leaps or some such thing.

[Kunzait_83]

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[Victator Supreme]

Oh for christ sake. The pre Crisis DC was much better than today. In fact all of DC's problems can be boiled down to them trying to fix something that was not broken. If something is not broke, don't take a hammer and pound it into a million tiny pieces then scotch tape the pieces back together.

Ypu really do not know how off handedly calling Superman's Silver Age of comics idiotic is not disrespectful?

[mrkaizoku]

Oh for christ sake. The pre Crisis DC was much better than today. In fact all of DC's problems can be boiled down to them trying to fix something that was not broken. If something is not broke, don't take a hammer and pound it into a million tiny pieces then scotch tape the pieces back together.

Ypu really do not know how off handedly calling Superman's Silver Age of comics idiotic is not disrespectful?

Pre Crisis Superman was the most broken thing ever. He could do anything. There really isn't much fun or drama to be had with a character that has no weaknesses. The writers would give him a new power whenever they saw fit . It made everything about Superman meaningless and in turn idiotic.


As for the human characters in Dragonball I don't think they've ever been given the credit they deserve. I think that most of that is due to a great number of fans only watching Z. Those fans have really missed out on something great. The whole numerical power level arguments are pretty useless. Getting all concerned with numerical power levels really ruins much of the fun in the series.

[Wojak]

Enough with Superman now! Isn't this a Dragonball forum?
I couldn't care less of Superman's power.

[goodguy777]

Oh for christ sake. The pre Crisis DC was much better than today. In fact all of DC's problems can be boiled down to them trying to fix something that was not broken. If something is not broke, don't take a hammer and pound it into a million tiny pieces then scotch tape the pieces back together.

Ypu really do not know how off handedly calling Superman's Silver Age of comics idiotic is not disrespectful?

Pre Crisis Superman was the most broken thing ever. He could do anything. There really isn't much fun or drama to be had with a character that has no weaknesses. The writers would give him a new power whenever they saw fit . It made everything about Superman meaningless and in turn idiotic.

Off topic, some of [Pre-crisis]Superman's godlike feats are not from his own abilities or powers.

[Onikage725]

Nope. It was aimed at the people who get so zealous about their pet character (somewhat understandably, as the humans do get a lot of crap from other asshole fans) that they refuse to acknowledge their limitations.

Yeah. It's the same thing that spawns the "Broly could could defeat SSJ4 Gogeta!" comments. Even the main characters get it. Though it's less obvious with them at times you'll get the really obvious occasions of "Base Vegeta is stronger than Freeza/18/17/Perfect Cell by the Android/Cell Games/Buu Saga!" now and then.

To be fair, I've entertained the notion of Buu-Saga bases vs Freeza (not that I fully subscribe to it, but I don't discount it) based on Kaioshin's smugness regarding Freeza and his fear of Pui Pui.

One could easily argue that Kaioshin was just being a wuss, but since things like power levels were a thing of the past there isn't really a specific answer within story canon. Conjecture either way, but there is a case for both.

You were the one who made the comment. Yes it was incredibly disrespectful to the creators of thoe stories.

And? It's called an opinion. He is allowed to have one. I've noticed you have a tendency to treat any opinion you think enough people have your back on in the court of public opinion as an irrefutable fact. It really makes it hard to have a conversation with you. You're partly to blame for getting the movie thread locked because you went on your tirade bashing things you didn't like, and now you're in here whining about respect?

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Onikage725]

To be fair, current DC is getting pretty lame too.

But then, I mostly attribute that to this driving need they have reintroduce Pre-Crisis crap into the Post-Crisis timeline. It doesn't gel, they are very different things, and now DC continuity is a big clusterfuck of "who gives a shit?" Supposedly they are going to tidy it all up at the end of Final Crisis, but I lost interest back when Superboy-Prime inadvertently resurrected Jason Todd (as well as conveniently excusing every continuity error since The Crisis On Infinite Earths) by punching the walls of reality.

[Herms]

I think part of the problem with mainstream American comics is that they just go on as long as they can, and in cases like Superman that means they basically run forever, since nobody's ever going to cancel Superman. So after awhile they run out of ideas and things start getting crazy. And then you throw in the fact that the writers get changed every so often, and you have the problem of different writers trying to ignore what the previous one did so can do their own thing, and other creative difference problems like that, and pretty soon continuity gets pretty convuluted. Some people think DragonBall went on for too long and got repetitive in the end, but think about what it would be like if we had 20+ years of successive GT-type series, each by different creators but all supposed to be in the same continuity. We'd need to reset things too.

The only DC comics or comic-based stuff I enjoy are ones that have a comparitively limited run, with a stable set of creators, like Batman: the Animated Series, or the Superman one they did too. Or stories set outside the main continuity or where continuity is otherwise not too important, like Alan Moore's Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? or the Superman Elseworld stuff like Red Son Superman (is that it's name? Can't quite remember).

You know, I'd try to bring this back on topic, but I can't think of anything to say about the strength of the human fighters that wouldn't cause an arguement.

[Onikage725]

Superman - Red Son
Superman - True Brit
Superman - Speeding Bullet

I dunno if I missed any, but those are the major "what if Kal El landed somewhere else" stories.

[Victator Supreme]

You're partly to blame for getting the movie thread locked

I'm very very proud of that. That thread was digital aids.

[Onikage725]

You're partly to blame for getting the movie thread locked

I'm very very proud of that. That thread was digital aids.

Well... I won't argue against that...

I'm just asking you to tone it down a notch in regards to people's opinions. Debate the opinion, not the opinion-holder. In this case, disagreeing with Kunzait about Pre-Crisis DC comics is one thing, but saying he's being an asshole is basically a personal attack, and uncalled for.

See the difference?

For my part, I was harsh in calling you on it, so I recognize my own violation of civility and apologize.

[Xyex]

To be fair, I've entertained the notion of Buu-Saga bases vs Freeza (not that I fully subscribe to it, but I don't discount it) based on Kaioshin's smugness regarding Freeza and his fear of Pui Pui.

One could easily argue that Kaioshin was just being a wuss, but since things like power levels were a thing of the past there isn't really a specific answer within story canon. Conjecture either way, but there is a case for both.

Yeah, in the latter camp there. Kaioshin was a clueless idiot who couldn't tell how powerful an SSJ2 10 feet from his face was and he was terrified of anything "Majin". The only real indication of his own power was his worry over Dabura's power but we don't know how much power Dabura had pre-Majin charm so that's not any help. (Though I really can't see either of them being weaker than Semi-Perfect Cell.)

Goku's the only one I see not needing SSJ to take even 100% Freeza. Kaioken x10 would be more than ample for that.

[Onikage725]

I'm just sayng it's conjecture, and the story leaves room for both possibilities. It's not the same as some off the wall theory like Kuririn could take full power Freeza by the Buu Saga.

One could offer in opposition that the power discrepancy would mean Kaioshin could have defeated Pui Pui by teleporting behind him and thumping him once upside the head. So him being afraid of such an opponent would be like Freeza planting a Saibaiman on Namek and Gohan having a shit fit. And how can we take his worry about Dabura at face value if we're going to start from a basis of "he's clueless and is to be ignored" when discussing Pui Pui?

And there's also the problem with Dabura listing the Saiya-jin as powerful fighters and Piccolo as a weakling. Obviously Piccolo was well above Freeza's level, and the Saiya-jin were in base form. So we have two options- Piccolo was supressing and Dabura can't sense for shit, or the Saiya-jin, even in base form, were kind of badass.

I'm not saying I have a particular opinion either way on that one, just that the story kind of leaves the door open for both possibilities and doesn't really take any steps to be more specific.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Dabura's chi-sensing isn't great, but was good enough to know it was seven of them on the mountaun suppressed. The way I see it, is that the base Saiyans simply outclassed Piccolo. Piccolo wasn't hinted to be training, and seemed to be more of a mentor to Dende instead of someone trained anymore.

Dabura didn't know about the SSJ transformations, and Babi even thought Spopo & Yamu absorbed far more then one person's energy. I don't think he would just be so random when it comes to eliminating Piccolo & Krillin, but leave the three Saiyans there, and of course Shin, though he's also irrelevant.

[Rocketman]

Was 'Piccolo' Kami back when Dabura scouted Earth the first time? Maybe that would make his energy unusable, like the Supreme Kai's (or makes Dabura think it is, since I doubt he knows of Namekian fusion).

[Herms]

Was 'Piccolo' Kami back when Dabura scouted Earth the first time? Maybe that would make his energy unusable, like the Supreme Kai's (or makes Dabura think it is, since I doubt he knows of Namekian fusion).

Do you mean that Kami's status as a divine being would make his energy unusable, like Kaioshin's apparently was? If so, keep in mind that Kami only became Kami (er...that is, the child of Katattsu only became Kami) after kicking the evil that became Piccolo out of his heart. So Kami wasn't actually divine back when Piccolo was still a part of him.

[Kid Trunks]

To be fair, I've entertained the notion of Buu-Saga bases vs Freeza (not that I fully subscribe to it, but I don't discount it) based on Kaioshin's smugness regarding Freeza and his fear of Pui Pui.

I've entertained this too. Ignoring Kaioshin's fear for a moment, Pui Pui can't have been all that weak. For one thing, he must been of a decent level of power for Babidi to consider using him to resurrect Buu.

[Kaboom]

Eh, Pui Pui considered 10x Earth's gravity as something rigorous that only he would be able to handle. Going by that, he'd be comparable to Saiyan saga Goku. XD