A question about power levels

teotihuacan · Post by **teotihuacan** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:36 pm

Is discussion about them frowned upon here? I never see any threads about them. Like, if I were to post a "power level listing" thread, would that be acceptable?

Daijuken · Post by **Daijuken** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:38 pm

Anything past the Freeza saga and you will be massacred right here, right now.

Cypher · Post by **Cypher** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:40 pm

It seems that Myfavoritegames forum is the place to be for that sort of discussion; the only problem being you're likely to have your hard work torn to shreds by people who have made up their own theories and don't want to admit they could be wrong (at least on my observation). That said there are some worthwhile conversations over there if you're up for arguments

ImmortalSandwich · Post by **ImmortalSandwich** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:41 pm

There's still debates going on now and then about power levels, but they seem to be few and far between nowadays. Most people have settled on not caring anymore, because Toriyama completely ditches the idea after the Freeza saga, and it seems like he was just making them up as he went anyway..

Speculation on the subject is all good fun, but it almost always turns into some sort of flame war or something like that. There's no real end to these debates, so I just gave up on them long ago.

teotihuacan · Post by **teotihuacan** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:49 pm

Well since its not against the rules, what the hell.

son goku: 8,110
kaio-ken: 16,220
x3: 24,330
x4: 32,440
x3 kamehame-ha: 26,230
x4: 36,340
weakened: 6,440
genki-dama: 87,550
remains: 9,700

vegeta: 16,780
powered up: 18,420
garlic gun: 29,770
weakened: 12,340
after power ball: 9,400
ozaru: 94,000
weakened: 4,500

namek

son gohan: 1,500

kuririn: 1,500

kiwi: 18,500

vegeta: 15,000
powered up: 24,000

appule: 1,100

dodoria: 19,970

zarbon: 21,200
transformed: 27,200

fight with ginyu sentai

son gohan: 10,300

kuririn: 10,150

vegeta: 24,000
powered up: 31,000
final flash: 41,500
zenkai: 72,000

ghurd: 2,000

butta: 49,000

jheese: 49,000

reacoom: 50,000
eraser gun: 72,000

ginyu: 80,000
powered up: 120,000

son goku: 90,000
kaio-ken: 180,000

fight with freeza

son gohan: 67,200
enraged: 895,500
zenkai: 235,000
enraged: 1,720,000

vegeta: 245,000
powered up: 430,000
zenkai: 1,450,000
powered up: 2,100,000

kuririn: 56,000

freeza: 530,000
second form: 1,060,000
powered up: 1,220,000
third form: 2,440,000
fourth form: 3,400,000
50%: 100,000,000
weakened: 60,000,000
100%: 120,000,000

piccolo: 1,075,000
w/o weights: 1,315,000

son goku: 3,000,000
kaio-kenx10:30,000,000
x20: 90,000,000
kamehame-ha:92,330,000
genki-dama: 110,550,000
SSJ: 150,000,000

trunks: 3,200,000
ssj: 160,000,000

freeza: 5,000,000

king cold: 6,200,000

son goku: 6,400,000
ssj: 170,000,000

androids appear

son goku: 10,200,000
ssj: 510,000,000
sick: 70,000,000

trunks: 6,000,000
ssj: 300,000,000

vegeta: 7,900,000
ssj: 395,000,000/140,000,000

piccolo: 35,000,000
w/o weights: 100,000,000
fused w/ kami: 480,000,000

son gohan: 2,500,000

kuririn: 800,000

yamucha: 670,000

tenshinhan: 5,200,000
shin ki ko ho: 900,000,000

android 19: 85,000,000

android 20: 90,000,000

android 17: 440,000,000

android 18: 425,000,000

android 16: 560,000,000

imperfect cell: 580,000,000

semi-perfect cell: 845,000,000

out of the room of spirit and time

vegeta: 16,700,000
ssj: 835,000,000
ussj: 1,002,000,000
final flash: 2,250,000,000

trunks: 16,000,000
ssj: 800,000,000
ussj: 960,000,000
ussj2: 1,120,000,000

perfect cell (suppressed): 1,040,000,000

cell games

son goku: 27,000,000
mssj: 1,890,000,000
full power: 3,200,000,000

son gohan: 30,000,000
mssj: 2,100,000,000
full power: 5,000,000,000
ssj2: 63,000,000,000
weakened: 31,000,000

perfect cell: 3,400,000,000
powered: 8,000,000,000
full power: 14,000,000,000
buffed up: 17,500,000,000
super perfect: 60,000,000,000

If any of you have interest in the subject, tear right it. I'm all ears to criticism.

EDIT: The reason the Boo saga is omittied is because thats where the levels get truly retarded, so I'm not going to even bother.

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:49 pm

It always gets ugly, and Mike always watched such threads very closely... if they don't prove to have no value in the very first post, which happens often.

I say if you have a question, ask it here (since this threads already up), if you have something to say, say it here or in another pre-existing thread that somewhat pertains to what you have to say. I'd personally avoid making an entire thread based on power-levels (unless it is a question) at all costs.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 10:58 pm

I think power levels, scouters, etc were an inherently flawed system. As Vegeta later put it, they can't be reduced to simple numbers. Ki is too unpredictable. It's spiritual.

I'm sorry, but I really can't comment on your list. It is interesting, but I don't know how you came up with the numbers, so they're kind of meaningless to me.

No offense intended.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:07 pm

Bussani wrote:I'm sorry, but I really can't comment on your list. It is interesting, but I don't know how you came up with the numbers, so they're kind of meaningless to me. :? No offense intended.

Probably one reason this sort of thing is kind of discouraged. Lists like that don't leave much room for discussion.

teotihuacan · Post by **teotihuacan** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:10 pm

Bussani wrote:I think power levels, scouters, etc were an inherently flawed system. As Vegeta later put it, they can't be reduced to simple numbers. Ki is too unpredictable. It's spiritual.

I'm sorry, but I really can't comment on your list. It is interesting, but I don't know how you came up with the numbers, so they're kind of meaningless to me. No offense intended.

Its an extremely flawed system. Also, why not ask some questions? Or is it that meaningless to you? No offense taken.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:20 pm

teotihuacan wrote:
Bussani wrote:I think power levels, scouters, etc were an inherently flawed system. As Vegeta later put it, they can't be reduced to simple numbers. Ki is too unpredictable. It's spiritual.

I'm sorry, but I really can't comment on your list. It is interesting, but I don't know how you came up with the numbers, so they're kind of meaningless to me. No offense intended.
Its an extremely flawed system. Also, why not ask some questions? Or is it that meaningless to you? No offense taken.

Well, how about telling us how you came to these conclusions? What are the numbers based on? I'd probably find that more interesting to discuss than the numbers themselves.

teotihuacan · Post by **teotihuacan** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:37 pm

I try to keep a consistent growth in the levels that is comparable to pre-Freeza power levels. Vegeta's ozaru power level is 94,000 because of the energy required to from an artifical moon. I have Butta, Jheese, and Reacoom at different levels because I just can't buy that they are all supposed to be exactly equal. I have Vegeta gaining power from taking a nap because I can't see him going from barely stronger than the Ginyu force to being able to match first form Freeza just buy eating a senzu, although I personally think that gaining power from a nap is silly. My SSJ multipliers are x50, USSJ x60, USSJ2 x65, MSSJ x70, and SSJ2 x30. Freeza's max power is dropped to 120,000,000 because of the damage caused by the Genki Dama. Looking back on the list, I screwed up on the Trunks/Goku levels. There should be a greater difference. I have Ten so high compared to most people's lists because I think no matter how power full the Shin Ki Ko Ho may be, it doesn't make any sense for someone with a battle power of less than a million (and according to many people's list, under 100,000) to be able to produce a blast that can hold back someone as powerful as Cell. I gave Perfect Cell that suppressed level because Piccolo says "Trunks' power was unarguably higher" or something like that.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 11:50 pm

Hmm, interesting..

I'm not sure if I agree with consistent growths, because there are so many times characters reach an apparent limit or wall that needs to be surpassed. The power gains on Namek were crazy, too -- some of the zenkais were ridiculously big.

As for Tenshinhan, I dunno... Kikoho is quite different to normal ki attacks, since it puts so much of your energy into it. Keep in mind he didn't actually damage Cell, he just held him back. I see Kikoho as being similar to self destructing, only you're sending the energy outward rather than building it up till you explode. So it's hard to say, but I can't imagine that he gained that much strength. At most I'd put him as close to Goku's base form.

I don't think the difference between Goku and Trunks when they first met would have been overly drastic either. Personally I think Goku could have killed Freeza easily on Namek if he'd really wanted to, he just doesn't kill if he doesn't have to.

By the way, when you say SSJ is x50 and SSJ2 is x30, does that mean you're multiplying their strength as a SSJ by an additional 30? Or their power level as a MSSJ, alternatively.

teotihuacan · Post by **teotihuacan** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 12:06 am

Bussani wrote:Hmm, interesting..

I'm not sure if I agree with consistent growths, because there are so many times characters reach an apparent limit or wall that needs to be surpassed. The power gains on Namek were crazy, too -- some of the zenkais were ridiculously big.

As for Tenshinhan, I dunno... Kikoho is quite different to normal ki attacks, since it puts so much of your energy into it. Keep in mind he didn't actually damage Cell, he just held him back. I see Kikoho as being similar to self destructing, only you're sending the energy outward rather than building it up till you explode. So it's hard to say, but I can't imagine that he gained that much strength. At most I'd put him as close to Goku's base form.

I don't think the difference between Goku and Trunks when they first met would have been overly drastic either. Personally I think Goku could have killed Freeza easily on Namek if he'd really wanted to, he just doesn't kill if he doesn't have to.

By the way, when you say SSJ is x50 and SSJ2 is x30, does that mean you're multiplying their strength as a SSJ by an additional 30? Or their power level as a MSSJ, alternatively.

For Goku and Gohan, it multiplies the MSSJ base power level, being that they are the only two who "officially" reach this stage.

And what you said about zenkais on Namek, yeah...Let's go to sleep and wake up on official baller status.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:42 am

I said it once, I'll say it again.

Battle Powers are nothing more than estimated numbers of Ki. They're simply used as a means of seeking out life and determining whether said life is even worth fighting or not.

Vegeta clearly got the idea that the Scouters could no longer be relied on upon his arrival at Earth due to the fact that Raditz had been defeated due to carelessly relying on the machine as a means of determining his enemy's strength.

Ginyu also realized the Scouters could not be fully relied on due to the fact that he knew Goku was clearly masking his Ki. Jheese fell to his demise when he believed he was stronger than Vegeta due to an earlier reading.

The very last time a Battle Power was read, it was Trunks' and it was another instance of masking one's Ki. Freeza did not know that the Scouters could not be trusted and ended up dying for, once again, underestimating his opponent based on a number (as well as keeping his ego).

When Freeza, Kold and their henchmen died, as did the idea of Battle Powers. They were never necessary, nor important to anyone who wasn't on the evil side. I think many people get wound up on "Power Levels" simply because the English dub stupidly mixed up Ki with Battle Powers and made it as one whole entity.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 1:56 am

Tsukento wrote:When Freeza, Kold and their henchmen died, as did the idea of Battle Powers. They were never necessary, nor important to anyone who wasn't on the evil side. I think many people get wound up on "Power Levels" simply because the English dub stupidly mixed up Ki with Battle Powers and made it as one whole entity.

That's true, although Vegeta does keep using "battle power" as a term for ki/strength up until at least the Cell Games. Which is another thing: Freeza and his men never use the term "ki/chi" to refer to a being's life energy or power; they only use "battle power" or simply "power". That's one of the things Viz messes up, since they have Freeza and Vegeta say "chi" a few times. At least up until the end of the Freeza arc, Vegeta never says "ki" to refer to someone's power.

Tsukento wrote:I said it once, I'll say it again.

"You Saiyans just don't know when to give up!"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:01 am

I think the scouters themselves are an interesting device and a good supplement when you can't sense ki by yourself. The flaw is when you try to rely on the numbers too much. A person's ki just isn't a set number during a fight, it fluctuates a lot. In the fight with Raditz we see that even a ki attack can give off a higher power reading than a person's body does when they're fighting at their fullest -- that's what makes finishing moves so powerful, I guess.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:08 am

Herms wrote:That's true, although Vegeta does keep using "battle power" as a term for ki/strength up until at least the Cell Games.

In Vegeta's case, I'd say it's probably due to the fact he's used to the term and isn't familiar with what the Earthlings call it. That and it could also be seen as its own way of referring to Ki and not completely associating it with the readings of a Scouter; unlike the term "Power Level."

Herms wrote:"You Saiyans just don't know when to give up!"

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Haha, you got me.

YouTube · Post by **Hujio** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:17 am

Tsukento wrote:In Vegeta's case, I'd say it's probably due to the fact he's used to the term and isn't familiar with what the Earthlings call it. That and it could also be seen as its own way of referring to Ki and not completely associating it with the readings of a Scouter; unlike the term "Power Level."

Just so we're clear, the term "Power Level" is never used in the manga or anime. It is simply a fan term which probably originated from the Carddass. Alright, you may continue...

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:20 am

Hujio wrote:Just so we're clear, the term "Power Level" is never used in the manga or anime. It is simply a fan term which probably originated from the Carddass. Alright, you may continue...

True. I think people just use it as another way of saying Battle Power as opposed to ki. Battle Power, power level, same generic sort of term.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:20 am

Pretending the FUNi dub doesn't exist, I take it?