DB Super Exciting Guide: Story

[Chrono Trigger]

Holy crap. SSj2 is 100-times and SSj3 is 400-times?? My lord. I think I'm having a heart attack.

I'm confused. Does that mean when you turn SSJ2 your base power is multiplied times 100 or your SSJ power is multiplied by 100?

[Kingdom Heartless]

So finally, the SSJ2 and SSJ3 mysteries are revealed!

Which means Goku at SSJ3 had at least a power level of much higher than 1,200,000,000!

Should I prepare for a flaming now?

[Bussani]

The second part deals with Goku’s power-ups: Super Saiyan, the Super God Water, and the potara. Again, mostly all stuff we’ve heard before, recounting the legend of the Super Saiyan and all that. It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new.

That is an epic revelation for someone like me. I've always been more interested in the mechanics of the transformations themselves than battle powers or anything like that which results from them.

The entry on the Super God Water explains why that image of an Oozaru appeared when Goku’s power awakened: it says that the poison triggered a memory within Goku associating the tremendous power sleeping inside him with the Oozaru (or possibly just that it triggered a memory sleeping inside him associating tremendous power with the Oozaru; I’m not too sure which it means).

Hm, that's interesting. Ki is very related to emotion and state of mind. Could it be that the awakened memory of Oozaru was what really gave Goku access to so much ki?

So finally, the SSJ2 and SSJ3 mysteries are revealed!

Which means Goku at SSJ3 had at least a power level of much higher than 1 200 000 000!

Should I prepare for a flaming now?

Haha, yeah... SSJ3 must be a lot larger than 1,200,000,000. But then...imagine what Vegetto's battle power must be.

[Kingdom Heartless]

It truly is a good thing they stopped with the power levels. They would have just been ridiculous!

Forget the complaints of them just standing there in awe at their opponent's ki for too long, it would have taken half the episode to just say their damn power level!

[Bussani]

I thought I'd mention, the thing that surprises me the most is the SSJ2 increase. People had theorized that it was x100 before, but honestly, I thought it must be more. Suddenly doubling your power is nothing compared to how SSJ suddenly multiplied it by 50. Not only that, but after going SSJ2 Gohan completely owned Cell, and even after Cell came back stronger, Gohan with one arm still obliterated him once he stopped holding back. All that from double the power of a Super Saiyajin? Jeez. Either Cell's zenkai was tiny or Gohan was really holding back even before transforming -- which is certainly a possibility, but imagine how much stronger he must have been than Goku though. No wonder Goku thought Gohan was stronger than him...

[Kingdom Heartless]

I thought I'd mention, the thing that surprises me the most is the SSJ2 increase. People had theorized that it was x100 before, but honestly, I thought it must be more. Suddenly doubling your power is nothing compared to how SSJ suddenly multiplied it by 50. Not only that, but after going SSJ2 Gohan completely owned Cell, and even after Cell came back stronger, Gohan with one arm still obliterated him once he stopped holding back. All that from double the power of a Super Saiyajin? Jeez. Either Cell's zenkai was tiny or Gohan was really holding back even before transforming -- which is certainly a possibility, but imagine how much stronger he must have been than Goku though. No wonder Goku thought Gohan was stronger than him...

Really? I honestly don't find it too farfetched, myself.

Unless, Cell got a previous zenkai from that senzu (do people here believe he did), in which case it is a little tougher.

But the zenkai he recieved after blowing himself up would have still been pretty big, considering he was coming back from a form much weaker than he was in his prime. His zenkai took him from less than Super Vegeta's power to at least in the realm of SSJ2.... but as you said, not that close, since he was still obliterated by a one handed Kamehame-Ha.

[Bussani]

Really? I honestly don't find it too farfetched, myself.

Unless, Cell got a previous zenkai from that senzu (do people here believe he did), in which case it is a little tougher.

But the zenkai he recieved after blowing himself up would have still been pretty big, considering he was coming back from a form much weaker than he was in his prime. His zenkai took him from less than Super Vegeta's power to at least in the realm of SSJ2.... but as you said, not that close, since he was still obliterated by a one handed Kamehame-Ha.

Hmm, that's true. I always forget to consider that he was in his semi-perfect form when he exploded, so the boost was pretty big considering that... Good point.

[Saiyan-Professor]

... It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new...

From what I understand is that the French Daizenshuu #7 says that Super Saiyan 3 is the equivalent of Super Saiyan times 3 (x150). How in the world do we get times 4 for Super Saiyan 3? Are you sure, it says 4 times the strength of Super Saiyan 2? That would make Super Saiyan 3 the equivalent of the base combat power being multiplied 400 times. Can we have a direct translation of that line? I cannot even imagine what Super Saiyan 4 would offer.

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

So basically the Potara functions as a Super Saiyan transformation or Kaio-Ken.

[Bussani]

From what I understand is that the French Daizenshuu #7 says that Super Saiyan 3 is the equivalent of Super Saiyan times 3 (x150). How in the world do we get times 4 for Super Saiyan 3? Are you sure, it says 4 times the strength of Super Saiyan 2? That would make Super Saiyan 4 the equivalent of the base combat power being multiplied 400 times. Can we have a direct translation of that line?

Those numbers were never in anything but the French Daizenshuu, if I remember right? So they're not exactly official.

So basically the Potara functions as a Super Saiyan transformation or Kaio-Ken.

Seems that way. This isn't necessarily new news though. When Rou Dai Kaioshin described the Potara he said that on top of being quicker to use than the fusion dance, 'they work much better too.' Now he could have been referring to the fact that the fusion never wears off, which he mentions afterward, but everyone's always considered Vegetto to be stronger than Gogeta, so yeah.

I think even fusion dance produces a warrior who's stronger than the sum of the 2 fusers, but I don't remember if it's ever stated.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I think even fusion dance produces a warrior who's stronger than the sum of the 2 fusers, but I don't remember if it's ever stated.

Yeah, I believe that aswell.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...Those numbers were never in anything but the French Daizenshuu, if I remember right? So they're not exactly official...

I understand that the French Daizenshuu numbers were not official but that made more sense then what was presented in the new guide. People complained that the 150 times multiplication for Super Saiyan 3 was too much, but this is ridiculous. How can any planet survive without falling apart when that thing is fired up? In Dragonball GT when Vegeta and Kakarrot both power up Super Saiyan 4 Pan says something about the earth shaking in reaction to their power. Hell that blasted thing should not even have survived the initial transformation. I take that back the planet should have fell apart with the powering up of their base forms since GT implies that their base combat power was on Buu Saga levels.

[Bussani]

If SSJ3 doesn't shake the world apart, but 2 SSJ4's do, doesn't that just imply that SSJ4 is more powerful than SSJ3? Which is obvious of course. I mean, whether it's 150 times stronger or 400 times stronger, we don't have anything that says that level of power would shake a planet apart, do we?

Even Vegetto powering up didn't shake the planet apart.

Edit: Of course, we don't know how Vegetto compares to an SSJ3.

[Herms]

How in the world do we get times 4 for Super Saiyan 3? Are you sure, it says 4 times the strength of Super Saiyan 2? That would make Super Saiyan 3 the equivalent of the base combat power being multiplied 400 times. Can we have a direct translation of that line?

Each of the lines are in the form of a sort of caption to the pictures of Goku's various Super Saiyan forms. They read:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"

Oh, and no mention is made at all of Super Saiyan 2nd/3rd Grade or Full-Power Super Saiyan.

I thought I'd mention, the thing that surprises me the most is the SSJ2 increase. People had theorized that it was x100 before, but honestly, I thought it must be more. Suddenly doubling your power is nothing compared to how SSJ suddenly multiplied it by 50.

Well, it probably wasn't meant as a meaningful distinction, but as you can see from the quotes above, it describes Super Saiyan as multiplying "battle power", while Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiply "strength". Again, I doubt they had anything in mind by this, but it does remind me of the DB RPG system I was working on awhile ago, where overall fighting ability was determined by multiplying ki (equivalent to battle power) by muscle strength and mental focus (or whatnot; I messed around with the exact formula and attributes a bit). So in this system, if you doubled a character's ki, it would double their overall ability (2x2x2=8, 4x2x2=16), but if you doubled all their stats, it would increase their overall ability by x8 (4x4x4=64). So if you wanted to, you could interpret "strength" in the quotes as referring to overall ability in an RPG system similiar to this, and "battle power" as simply the ki portion, making a multiplying of "stength" much more potent than a multiplying of "battle power".

[Jack Handey] But then again, I've never actually seen a radar dish, so I wouldn't totally go by what I've just said here [/Jack Handey]

[JulieYBM]

So finally, the SSJ2 and SSJ3 mysteries are revealed!

Which means Goku at SSJ3 had at least a power level of much higher than 1,200,000,000!

Should I prepare for a flaming now?

Yeah, the 1.2 billion number thing really hit me hard this morning as I drove to school. Friggin' awesome!!

[Dayspring]

Regarding the French Daizenshuu 7, it states that SSJ2 is SSJ become two times more powerful. For SSJ3, it lists:
Japanese name: Supaa Saiyajin 3
French name: "Super Saiyan 3" or "Super Saiyan to the power 3." (meant to imply the latter is a way of understanding what "Super Saiyan 3" means)

The description itself then uses the latter instead of saying "Super Saiyan 3." Note that, in this context, "to the power 3" is not meant to be a multiplyer or exponent. It's meant that it's the third SSJ stage/level/whatever, in the sense that SSJ is "SSJ to the power 1" and SSJ2 "SSJ to the power 2."

A while back, because of how it follows stating that SSJ2 litterally is SSJ x2, I figured it meant SSJ3 was either SSJ x3 or SSJ^3, so I asked any Japanese Daizenshuu owners to help me out. For some reason, some people took the x150 to be fact out of that, even though the answer quickly came that it was neither. O_o

Some things of interest is that it describes Gohan’s training as being based mostly on strengthening and learning to control his ki, while Vegeta’s training is described as training his muscles to the limit. And as a result of Vegeta’s training, it says he awakened to Super Saiyan 2, so that’s another data point in that debate (Daizenshuu 7 also says Vegeta acquired Super Saiyan 2 through training).

Interesting. Theoretically, this could mean that USSJ could be an imperfect SSJ2. In other words, USSJ could be a result of going SSJ2 before your muscles have been trained to their limit.

The second part deals with Goku’s power-ups: Super Saiyan, the Super God Water, and the potara. Again, mostly all stuff we’ve heard before, recounting the legend of the Super Saiyan and all that. It says Super Saiyan 3 has a calmer heart than Super Saiyan 2, which does seem true. It gives the same old thing about Super Saiyan making Goku fifty times stronger than his normal form. It also says that Super Saiyan 2 has two times the strength of regular Super Saiyan, and that Super Saiyan 3 has four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2, so that’s something new.

The PL fanwanker in me wet himself right there. Even if you don't take the 3 mil PL as canon, as long Goku's base PL went from "Way over 1 million" to at least 2.5 million between 762 and 774, we have proof that PLs reached the billions at one point.

The entry on the Super God Water explains why that image of an Oozaru appeared when Goku’s power awakened: it says that the poison triggered a memory within Goku associating the tremendous power sleeping inside him with the Oozaru (or possibly just that it triggered a memory sleeping inside him associating tremendous power with the Oozaru; I’m not too sure which it means).

I think the latter. The former implies that Goku's Oozaru energy was equal to what he became after drinking the Super God Water. That means if his PL prior was indeed 180, then after it would be 1,800. Meanwhile the latter explains the Oozaru picture in the manga, as well as Karin's comment about it.

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

Oh my shittycaca. "Way over 1 million" x "Way over 1 million" means Vegetto's base PL is "way over 1 TRILLION." Super Vegetto could feasably have a PL in the quadrillions.
(Is "quadrillion" even a number? I'm refering to 1,000 trillions)

However, this makes me wonder how weak Rou Kaioshin and the Witch were when they fused.

[JulieYBM]

For the potara, it says that the power-up from merging isn’t a sum of the two’s battle powers, but rather as tremendous as multiplication.

Oh my shittycaca. "Way over 1 million" x "Way over 1 million" means Vegetto's base PL is "way over 1 TRILLION." Super Vegetto could feasably have a PL in the quadrillions.
(Is "quadrillion" even a number? I'm refering to 1,000 trillions)

However, this makes me wonder how weak Rou Kaioshin and the Witch were when they fused.

Yeah, quadrillion is a real number. Septillion is the highest of the numbers, though.

[Hujio]

Yeah, quadrillion is a real number. Septillion is the highest of the numbers, though.

Well, while septillion (10^24) is larger than quadrillion (10^15), it is definitely not the highest of the numbers. In all technicality, there is no such thing as the largest number. Though, you could have a googol, which in 10 to the 100th power (10^100). My favorite is the googolplex, which is 10 to the googol power (10^googol). Sorry for the math talk, but you tempted me and I gave in. So yeah... Power Levels...

The PL fanwanker in me wet himself right there.

Sweet. Then we've done our job.

[Dayspring]

How in the world do we get times 4 for Super Saiyan 3? Are you sure, it says 4 times the strength of Super Saiyan 2? That would make Super Saiyan 3 the equivalent of the base combat power being multiplied 400 times. Can we have a direct translation of that line?

Each of the lines are in the form of a sort of caption to the pictures of Goku's various Super Saiyan forms. They read:

"Battle power becomes 50 times the norm!"
"Two times the strength of Super Saiyan!"
"Four times the strength of Super Saiyan 2!"

Oh, and no mention is made at all of Super Saiyan 2nd/3rd Grade or Full-Power Super Saiyan.

I thought I'd mention, the thing that surprises me the most is the SSJ2 increase. People had theorized that it was x100 before, but honestly, I thought it must be more. Suddenly doubling your power is nothing compared to how SSJ suddenly multiplied it by 50.

Well, it probably wasn't meant as a meaningful distinction, but as you can see from the quotes above, it describes Super Saiyan as multiplying "battle power", while Super Saiyan 2 and 3 multiply "strength". Again, I doubt they had anything in mind by this, but it does remind me of the DB RPG system I was working on awhile ago, where overall fighting ability was determined by multiplying ki (equivalent to battle power) by muscle strength and mental focus (or whatnot; I messed around with the exact formula and attributes a bit). So in this system, if you doubled a character's ki, it would double their overall ability (2x2x2=8, 4x2x2=16), but if you doubled all their stats, it would increase their overall ability by x8 (4x4x4=64). So if you wanted to, you could interpret "strength" in the quotes as referring to overall ability in an RPG system similiar to this, and "battle power" as simply the ki portion, making a multiplying of "stength" much more potent than a multiplying of "battle power".

[Jack Handey] But then again, I've never actually seen a radar dish, so I wouldn't totally go by what I've just said here [/Jack Handey]

Actually it makes sense overall. People with the same Battle Power can have different speeds, etc, as we see with Barta, Jeece, and Recoom. Meanwhile, SSJ 2nd and 3rd Grade don't add to all the attributes you listed. It's possible that they work as followed:

Battle Power x50 = [Speed + Physical strength + Ki Blasts + Endurance (ability to take damage without getting wounded) ] x50

Whereas Strength x2 = (Speed x2) + (Physical strength x2) + (Ki Blasts x2) + (Endurance x2) = Battle Power x 8.

It even explains the positives of FP-SSJ: it's possible that going FP means you can consciously control which attributes get what amount of the 50 that BP is multipled by. In other words:
SSJ = BP x50 = Each attribute x 12.5 added together.
FP-SSJ = BP x 50 = Speed x 35 and other attributes x 5, all added together.
SSJ2 = SSJ x 2 = Each attribute x 25 added together.

I really don't like this, though, since it implies that SSJ2 is 400x stronger than base, and that SSJ3 is 800x stronger.
EDIT: Which is why I'm going to take it as the following:
Battle Power = Base Strength
SSJ strength = Battle Power x50 = Base Strength x50
SSJ2 strength = SSJ strength x2 = Battle Power x50 x2 = Base Strength x100
SSJ3 strength = SSJ2 strength x4 = Battle Power x50 x2 x4 = Base Strength x400

[JulieYBM]

I doubt the second and third grades are remembered by Toriyama. If anything, they could be anywhere from 51-99-times the power of the base form.


I wonder, at this rate Toriyama might one day go back and assign numbers for post-Freeza.

Yeah, you made me wet myself too, Heathjio.

This is the part where we all get quite and look away from each other.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

The art style for this cover kind of reminds me of the one Toriyama used for the pictures that the special figurines for the R2 singles were based on (go here and scroll down aways). It does look a bit different than they style he drew the kanzenban covers in. I think something about the coloring is different.

The Super Saiyan 3 Goku drawing looks like the "skinny Gokus" on the book's cover, so I guess Toriyama's just drawing Goku weird now. ;_; All of those other drawings of the other characters look great!

Hey, can you post the scans that talk about the Super Saiyan forms?

EDIT: There's always been the theory that the Super Saiyan 4's increase in power is 50 x 10 (or 500 times the normal form), because that's the Oozaru's increase in power multiplied by the Super Saiyan's increase in power, so a 400x multiplier for Super Saiyan 3 fits in there quite nicely.