DB Super Exciting Guide: Story

[Bussani]

In the scene in the manga and anime when Vegeta was standing on the rock for three days during the Android Saga, was that image training? When Kakarrot recovered from the virus and came to where Vegeta and Trunks was he said that Vegeta was a genius because he was seeing beyond the Super Saiyan. Vegeta did not really know if going beyond that transformation was even possible. Nevertheless, do you think that he was increasing his Ki those 3 days in preparation to attempt to go beyond the Super Saiyan?

Indirectly I think it was a form of 'image training' so to speak. I don't know if he was actually increasing his ki directly or not, but I do see it as a form of meditation, similar to how Goku just sat around in the RoSaT for ages before suddenly standing up and becoming USSJ. It's like they're trying to feel out and find that hidden power within themselves, or simply figuring out what they're going to do and how they're going to do it.

[Kingdom Heartless]

I still don't understand why people get so upset about Vegeta getting the rough end of the stick in the series.

If you met someone who murdered entire planets of inocents, forced to or not, and then came to your planet and made attempts to wipe out your entire race, I wouldn't give a flip if he went on to become the nicest man alive, I still wouldn't feel sorry for him for being only in the Top 5 strongest beings in the universe, and sometimes having Goku be a bit of a jerk to him.

Considering he started off as a villain, I felt he had a pretty good go in the story. Not so much in GT, but yeah.

Characters like Piccolo and Tenshinhan I can understand people feeling sorry for.

[Bussani]

Life isn't fair. You make do with what you've got. Vegeta does a pretty good job of making do, all things considered. I think it was an important turning point for him when he let go of his rivalry with Goku and actually saved the day in his own way, really.

[Saiyan-Professor]

In the scene in the manga and anime when Vegeta was standing on the rock for three days during the Android Saga, was that image training? When Kakarrot recovered from the virus and came to where Vegeta and Trunks was he said that Vegeta was a genius because he was seeing beyond the Super Saiyan. Vegeta did not really know if going beyond that transformation was even possible. Nevertheless, do you think that he was increasing his Ki those 3 days in preparation to attempt to go beyond the Super Saiyan?

Indirectly I think it was a form of 'image training' so to speak. I don't know if he was actually increasing his ki directly or not, but I do see it as a form of meditation, similar to how Goku just sat around in the RoSaT for ages before suddenly standing up and becoming USSJ. It's like they're trying to feel out and find that hidden power within themselves, or simply figuring out what they're going to do and how they're going to do it.

That is what I figured; because Trunks says, that Vegeta was just standing there staring for 3 days. Therefore, since the whole image training came up I figured that was what was occurring in light of Kakarrot’s comment.

I still don't understand why people get so upset about Vegeta getting the rough end of the stick in the series.

If you met someone who murdered entire planets of inocents, forced to or not, and then came to your planet and made attempts to wipe out your entire race, I wouldn't give a flip if he went on to become the nicest man alive, I still wouldn't feel sorry for him for being only in the Top 5 strongest beings in the universe, and sometimes having Goku be a bit of a jerk to him.

Considering he started off as a villain, I felt he had a pretty good go in the story. Not so much in GT, but yeah.

Characters like Piccolo and Tenshinhan I can understand people feeling sorry for.

Well, I believe in something called redemption. I do not believe you should continue to hold someone accountable for their past when they have made changes whether it is in fiction or not.

Life isn't fair. You make do with what you've got. Vegeta does a pretty good job of making do, all things considered. I think it was an important turning point for him when he let go of his rivalry with Goku and actually saved the day in his own way, really.

Well at least things somewhat evened out in GT.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Well, I believe in something called redemption. I do not believe you should continue to hold someone accountable for their past when they have made changes whether it is in fiction or not.

Hey, I'm all for redemption, but from commiting flipping genocide? Multiple times?

I mean, if Hitler became a top bloke, would you ever feel bad for him, because things didn't always go his way?

[Herms]

In the scene in the manga and anime when Vegeta was standing on the rock for three days during the Android Saga, was that image training? When Kakarrot recovered from the virus and came to where Vegeta and Trunks was he said that Vegeta was a genius because he was seeing beyond the Super Saiyan. Vegeta did not really know if going beyond that transformation was even possible. Nevertheless, do you think that he was increasing his Ki those 3 days in preparation to attempt to go beyond the Super Saiyan?

Possibly. It does seem similar to what Goku did in the Room of Spirit and Time. For Goku's meditation in the Room of Spirit and Time, it describes surpassing the Super Saiyan wall as an inner struggle, where you spend days imagining strength in order to make that strength real.

And, uh, looking at the pages again, I realize I messed up when writing up the Room of Spirit and Time training. There's actually three menus: sparring with Gohan, meditating, and constantly being a Super Saiyan. I lumped that last two together, giving the stat increases for "constantly being a Super Saiyan" to the meditation one, and missed meditation's real stat increase (only 3 ki). So it goes like this:

Room of Spirit and Time
Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Menu 2: meditation
Ki: 3

Menu 3: constantly being a Super Saiyan
Power: 8
Speed: 6
Stamina: 7
Ki: 8

Total
Power: 41
Speed: 31
Stamina: 44
Ki: 55

[Saiyan-Professor]

Well, I believe in something called redemption. I do not believe you should continue to hold someone accountable for their past when they have made changes whether it is in fiction or not.

Hey, I'm all for redemption, but from commiting flipping genocide? Multiple times?

I mean, if Hitler became a top bloke, would you ever feel bad for him, because things didn't always go his way?

Look, I am not the final judge, if through some sort of means Hitler returned, the civil authorities allowed him to live, and eventually over time, he proved that he was a changed person, I would not continue to judge him. I believe in mercy and forgiveness, for even though I have not done anything throughout my entire life that would be in Hitler’s league. I have still hurt others and done some bad things in light of certain standards. Yet, I have received mercy and forgiveness. Now one ever threw those things in my face. That is all I have to say on the matter, to go any further I would have to wax philosophical and this is not the environment for that type of discussion.

In the scene in the manga and anime when Vegeta was standing on the rock for three days during the Android Saga, was that image training? When Kakarrot recovered from the virus and came to where Vegeta and Trunks was he said that Vegeta was a genius because he was seeing beyond the Super Saiyan. Vegeta did not really know if going beyond that transformation was even possible. Nevertheless, do you think that he was increasing his Ki those 3 days in preparation to attempt to go beyond the Super Saiyan?

Possibly. It does seem similar to what Goku did in the Room of Spirit and Time. For Goku's meditation in the Room of Spirit and Time, it describes surpassing the Super Saiyan wall as an inner struggle, where you spend days imagining strength in order to make that strength real.

And, uh, looking at the pages again, I realize I messed up when writing up the Room of Spirit and Time training. There's actually three menus: sparring with Gohan, meditating, and constantly being a Super Saiyan. I lumped that last two together, giving the stat increases for "constantly being a Super Saiyan" to the meditation one, and missed meditation's real stat increase (only 3 ki)...

Thanks Herms, for a long time I always wondered why Vegeta was just standing there when he should have been training. Therefore, in light of this recent information from the new guide and your translation I finally have received an answer. Since Kakarrot called Vegeta a “genius” when he saw what Vegeta was doing, do you think Kakarrot got the idea for image training in the Room of Space and Time to increase his Ki from Vegeta?

[VegettoEX]

Can we possibly manage to have multi-page conversations that DON'T end up making comparisons to Hitler?

Unless, ya' know, it's a DBZ movie 12 discussion...

[Dayspring]

Well, I believe in something called redemption. I do not believe you should continue to hold someone accountable for their past when they have made changes whether it is in fiction or not.

What does that have to do with the difference in his and Goku's strength though? Also, the series believes in redemption as well, as we see by Vegeta being wished back at the end of the Boo saga.

The reason Vegeta went to Hell (if he went to Hell), was because he chose to kill the stadium people to serve his own evil purpose. He just didn't get to atone for that particular damning action, since he got killed by Boo right after it. His self-destruct may not have been enough to redeem him since it wasn't completely selfless.

[Bussani]

Since Kakarrot called Vegeta a “genius” when he saw what Vegeta was doing, do you think Kakarrot got the idea for image training in the Room of Space and Time to increase his Ki from Vegeta?

I think Goku learned meditation and image training from Kami and Popo. I don't think it's just as simple as "oh hey I'm gonna imagine up some power now" though. Vegeta was a genius because he was starting to visualize the power beyond their grasp or realizing the potential within them, so to speak.

[Miracles]

It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember).

Does it state what the gravity was on the planet Goku was training on with the weights in mid-air?

[Innagadadavida]

It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember).

Does it state what the gravity was on the planet Goku was training on with the weights in mid-air?

King Kai's planet. It was 10 times the gravity of Earth.

[JulieYBM]

It’s worth pointing out that it basically says the reason Goku’s weight training in Heaven was so effective was that he used Bukujutsu to float in midair as he used the weights, which made it much harder. Goku’s never shown using Bukujutsu during any of his gravity training on Kaio’s or in the spaceship (at least not in the manga, that I can remember).

Does it state what the gravity was on the planet Goku was training on with the weights in mid-air?

King Kai's planet. It was 10 times the gravity of Earth.

That was the DaiKaiô world, wasn't it?

[Olivier Hague]

Wasn't that Heaven?

[Miracles]

Does it state what the gravity was on the planet Goku was training on with the weights in mid-air?

King Kai's planet. It was 10 times the gravity of Earth.

That was the DaiKaiô world, wasn't it?

Yes, I wanted to know if that world is built the same as King Kai's [Gravity]?

[Bussani]

Yes, I wanted to know if that world is built the same as King Kai's [Gravity]?

I don't think it ever says what the gravity is in the manga. You only see Goku there for 1 scene.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Well, I believe in something called redemption. I do not believe you should continue to hold someone accountable for their past when they have made changes whether it is in fiction or not.

What does that have to do with the difference in his and Goku's strength though? Also, the series believes in redemption as well, as we see by Vegeta being wished back at the end of the Boo saga.

The reason Vegeta went to Hell (if he went to Hell), was because he chose to kill the stadium people to serve his own evil purpose. He just didn't get to atone for that particular damning action, since he got killed by Boo right after it. His self-destruct may not have been enough to redeem him since it wasn't completely selfless.

I was looking at Kingdom Heartless’ post as saying that Vegeta was the ex evil genocidal maniac so let us screw him throughout the story. I could have taken his post in the wrong manner but I feel that is not a valid reason to punish a character because of his past. Some argue that well Kakarrot is the main character, which is true but damn everything seemed to fall in place for him. He is killed and winds up the equivalent of four full-powered Super Saiyan 2 Vegetas. Not even Naruto get that many breaks if anything he is always behind the other characters most of the time.

...Yes, I wanted to know if that world is built the same as King Kai's [Gravity]?

Actually, in the manga it never says that Kakarrot went to the Dai-Kaio’s Planet only in the anime if I recall correctly.

[Olivier Hague]

Wasn't that Heaven?

Yup, that was Heaven, guys.

[Hujio]

Alright, Herms thought it'd be easier for you guys to just see some of the training pages than for him to explain every little detail, so I'm posting 'em. The wonderful scans are from Hujio, so don't come asking me for any other specific pages!

I thought I recognized those! I guess I should have read your post first. I saw Olivier Hague post the scan, and was like, "Where'd everyone get my scans from? Herms is the only that has those..." Anyway, I hope they help everyone out.

[Wojak]

Well, I believe in something called redemption. I do not believe you should continue to hold someone accountable for their past when they have made changes whether it is in fiction or not.

What does that have to do with the difference in his and Goku's strength though? Also, the series believes in redemption as well, as we see by Vegeta being wished back at the end of the Boo saga.

The reason Vegeta went to Hell (if he went to Hell), was because he chose to kill the stadium people to serve his own evil purpose. He just didn't get to atone for that particular damning action, since he got killed by Boo right after it. His self-destruct may not have been enough to redeem him since it wasn't completely selfless.

I was looking at Kingdom Heartless’ post as saying that Vegeta was the ex evil genocidal maniac so let us screw him throughout the story. I could have taken his post in the wrong manner but I feel that is not a valid reason to punish a character because of his past. Some argue that well Kakarrot is the main character, which is true but damn everything seemed to fall in place for him. He is killed and winds up the equivalent of four full-powered Super Saiyan 2 Vegetas. Not even Naruto get that many breaks if anything he is always behind the other characters most of the time.

Well, now Naruto is the strongest, he is fighting Pain, something that noone else could, he he.

Either way, Vegeta is not a kind hearted, peace loving, humble and just person until the SSJ3 Goku vs Kid Buu fight.
You don't give good chances to a person that doesn't deserve it.
Vegeta doesn't. No matter how much he trains, he still is an ass to everyone (except Trunks), and he still wants his revenge against Goku.
It's not like he settled down and started to plant trees and taking care of orphans all suddenly after the Cell Saga.
He still had sinister plans and later chose to be ally to the bad guys via the Majin control.
Also, he wasn't Mr. Nice guy in the Cell Arc either. He may have done one of the most stupid things ever there, like when he allowed Cell to transform.
To throw a ki ball at Cell or attackning him furiosly because of his son doesn't make him good or brave, only stupid.
Even Stalin would be mad if someone killed his relative, and he was a killer.