How come Tien wasn't in the Buu Saga much?

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

He specifically said that Chaozu stayed behind because he wouldn't be able to keep up in the fight, implying that Tenshinhan thought that he could.

[Bussani]

He specifically said that Chaozu stayed behind because he wouldn't be able to keep up in the fight, implying that Tenshinhan thought that he could.

All this implies it that Tenshinhan is a hypocrite and is being overprotective of Chiaotzu. And that he's far stronger than Chiaotzu, too, but that isn't saying much.

Considering Chiaotzu has never won a fight and has died twice already, I think it was a good call.

[Kingdom Heartless]

He specifically said that Chaozu stayed behind because he wouldn't be able to keep up in the fight, implying that Tenshinhan thought that he could.

All this implies it that Tenshinhan is a hypocrite and is being overprotective of Chiaotzu. And that he's far stronger than Chiaotzu, too, but that isn't saying much.

Considering Chiaotzu has never won a fight and has died twice already, I think it was a good call.

Considering what you just said, I wouldn't really call it being "overprotective."

[Dayspring]

He specifically said that Chaozu stayed behind because he wouldn't be able to keep up in the fight, implying that Tenshinhan thought that he could.

All this implies it that Tenshinhan is a hypocrite and is being overprotective of Chiaotzu. And that he's far stronger than Chiaotzu, too, but that isn't saying much.

Considering Chiaotzu has never won a fight and has died twice already, I think it was a good call.

In demon dolly's defense, he did win his qualifying fights in the 22nd budokai.

And those guys have power levels possibly in the teens!

[Bussani]

Considering what you just said, I wouldn't really call it being "overprotective."

True. 'Protective' would have been enough.

In demon dolly's defense, he did win his qualifying fights in the 22nd budokai.

And those guys have power levels possibly in the teens!

Haha. I guess I should have said 'important' fights.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Hah. Demon dolly. I like that.

[USSJed]

Hey cool, a Tien powerlevel argument!

Since AT has finally released some 'training levels' for Goku, I believe that we can actually come to a vague conclusion on Tiens power after the King Kaio training period.

Someone(Herms?) posted up a star chart of the training increases Goku got in the latest guidebook(or whatever it was), can anyone gimme some linkage to this post?

Edit: I managed to find the post myself. King Kaio's training added 26 'points' to Goku's stats, whilst the 100g training added 36 w/o 'returning from brink of death' and and 56 with it. 41 is about 50% between the two trainings, and if we put 26pts = x20 per 158 days, then 41pts would be about x31.5 per 158 days.

With these 'calculations', Tien should improve approx 51.8x in 260 days. If memory serves, Tiens power ranges between 1600 and 2300 on most of the lists, which should put Tien at something like 82,800 - 119,140 after his Kaio training.

But this number is hardly accurate, it should be much higher, as 56pts seemed to be an increase of about x248 per 158 days.

[Bussani]

Hey cool, a Tenshinhan powerlevel argument!

Since AT has finally released some 'training levels' for Goku, I believe that we can actually come to a vague conclusion on Tenshinhan's power after the King Kaio training period.

Someone(Herms?) posted up a star chart of the training increases Goku got in the latest guidebook(or whatever it was), can anyone gimme some linkage to this post?

Edit: I managed to find the post myself. King Kaio's training added 26 'points' to Goku's stats, whilst the 100g training added 36 w/o 'returning from brink of death' and and 56 with it. 41 is about 50% between the two trainings, and if we put 26pts = x20 per 158 days, then 41pts would be about x31.5 per 158 days.

With these 'calculations', Tenshinhan should improve approx 51.8x in 260 days. If memory serves, Tenshinhan's power ranges between 1600 and 2300 on most of the lists, which should put Tenshinhan at something like 82,800 - 119,140 after his Kaio training.

But this number is hardly accurate, it should be much higher, as 56pts seemed to be an increase of about x248 per 158 days.

He did spend an extra 'Namekian year' at Kaio's place while waiting to be wished back. Knowing Tenshinhan he trained the whole time. I forget if he took a turn in the room of spirit and time or not...I don't think the manga mentions it, just Goku commenting on Piccolo's improvement from his own training in there.

Either way though, Saiyajin get stronger faster than humans and Goku and Vegeta put themselves through some pretty harsh training. At most I think Tenshinhan could keep up with their base forms, but then Super Saiyajin and beyond just blow him out of the water. There's no way for him to keep up with the 50x power increase when Goku and Vegeta train just as much or more than him.

[Kingdom Heartless]

Either way though, Saiyajin get stronger faster than humans and Goku and Vegeta put themselves through some pretty harsh training. At most I think Tenshinhan could keep up with their base forms, but then Super Saiyajin and beyond just blow him out of the water. There's no way for him to keep up with the 50x power increase when Goku and Vegeta train just as much or more than him.

I like to believe he is strong enough to push Base Trunks to transform, as he did in Movie 9.

I know it can't really be considered canon, but I really love that fight. Really the best fight a human had gotten in a while.

[Herms]

I forget if he took a turn in the room of spirit and time or not...I don't think the manga mentions it, just Goku commenting on Piccolo's improvement from his own training in there.

He didn't use it. Right after Goku's comment on Piccolo's improvement, when Piccolo is explaining the order of who will use the Room of Spirit and Time, Tenshinhan says he'll pass, since he's no match for Cell.

[Bussani]

I forget if he took a turn in the room of spirit and time or not...I don't think the manga mentions it, just Goku commenting on Piccolo's improvement from his own training in there.

He didn't use it. Right after Goku's comment on Piccolo's improvement, when Piccolo is explaining the order of who will use the Room of Spirit and Time, Tenshinhan says he'll pass, since he's no match for Cell.

Hmm, I thought I remembered that in the anime, but I don't see it in the manga.

[USSJed]

Either way though, Saiyajin get stronger faster than humans and Goku and Vegeta put themselves through some pretty harsh training. At most I think Tenshinhan could keep up with their base forms, but then Super Saiyajin and beyond just blow him out of the water. There's no way for him to keep up with the 50x power increase when Goku and Vegeta train just as much or more than him.

Where exactly was it shown that Saiyans train better than humans?

The closest thing I remember to proof, is Goku doing better than Krillin at Roshi's training. But then again, Goku did start stronger(so of course he ends stronger), and also Goku > Everyone; Saiyans, humans, or otherwise.

In addition, the other thing that I got from herms translation(?), is that 'training with another Super Saiyan' in the CoSaT was not 50x more effective than standard training as many people seem to believe. It scored 14 points, but of course we must take into consideration the fact that no specific time period is given for Goku sparring with Gohan in comparison to other actions taken in the CoSaT.

As such, I think its absolutely ludacris to make Piccolo so vastly powerful from 'training with a Super Saiyan' and make the Humans get such feeble increases.

[Bussani]

Where exactly was it shown that Saiyans train better than humans?

Isn't it implied throughout the story? Not only do they put themselves through ridiculous training, but they seem to naturally develop faster than humans. Especially if you take zenkais into account.

As for training 'better' than a human...what do the humans ever do? We certainly don't see them spending a year straight in the RoSaT or going through 100x Earth's gravity or anything like that. Saiyajin are just crazy like that.

In addition, the other thing that I got from herms translation(?), is that 'training with another Super Saiyan' in the CoSaT was not 50x more effective than standard training as many people seem to believe. It scored 14 points, but of course we must take into consideration the fact that no specific time period is given for Goku sparring with Gohan in comparison to other actions taken in the CoSaT.

Uh, what?

What I mean is Super Saiyajin makes you 50x stronger than your base form. Even if Tenshinhan can keep up with their base forms, they can just go, "WHOOMP! I'm now as strong as 50 of you." It's the transformations that really made everyone else useless after all.

As such, I think its absolutely ludacris to make Piccolo so vastly powerful from 'training with a Super Saiyan' and make the Humans get such feeble increases.

Piccolo's special, since he isn't human anyway. Plus he's just amazing when you think about it; it's a filler scene, but his training for the 25th budokai tenkaichi was great. He just meditated, making his ki bigger and bigger. That's it. Dende said something like, "It's amazing, he's been at it for days, but his ki is getting bigger rather than smaller." Piccolo's just got an incredible understanding of his ki and spirit, I think.

[USSJed]

Isn't it implied throughout the story?

They are implied to be stronger, but nothing is shown of them training better. If anything, what we see indicates that the humans actually do better than Goku with the same training as him.

Not only do they put themselves through ridiculous training, but they seem to naturally develop faster than humans.

By 'train better', I'm referring to their performance when undertaking the same training. I'm not saying that 'Tien in mountains > Vegeta in grav chamber'

And I don't know what you mean by 'develop faster than humans'. Consider Tiens performance against Goku at the 23rd Budokai, given the fact that he trained in the mountains and Goku trained with Popo and possibly even Kami.

Especially if you take zenkais into account.

Of course, who could forget that hax nonsense?

What I mean is Super Saiyajin makes you 50x stronger than your base form. Even if Tenshinhan can keep up with their base forms, they can just go, "WHOOMP! I'm now as strong as 50 of you." It's the transformations that really made everyone else useless after all.

?

You probably misinterpreted what I said. What I am saying, is that a lot of the time people say 'Piccolo became 100x stronger in 3 years because he trained with the Super Saiyan and Tien became (insert some number under 5) x stronger because he trained by himself', but this guide does not seem to share their enthusiasm in this area.

Piccolo's special, since he isn't human anyway. Plus he's just amazing when you think about it; it's a filler scene, but his training for the 25th budokai tenkaichi was great. He just meditated, making his ki bigger and bigger. That's it. Dende said something like, "It's amazing, he's been at it for days, but his ki is getting bigger rather than smaller." Piccolo's just got an incredible understanding of his ki and spirit, I think.

I have no idea how strong Piccolo or anyone(except Yamcha ;P) got in the anime. I only discuss the manga, because I havent seen the anime in like 8 years.

[Bussani]

You probably misinterpreted what I said. What I am saying, is that a lot of the time people say 'Piccolo became 100x stronger in 3 years because he trained with the Super Saiyan and Tenshinhan became (insert some number under 5) x stronger because he trained by himself', but this guide does not seem to share their enthusiasm in this area.

Oh, okay. I don't know where people come up with such numbers.

It does make sense that having a strong partner to spar against would be beneficial than training against -- I think it's even implied in the guide by specifically mentioning the sparring against Kaio-sama and SSJ Gohan. But by how much I don't know.

I have no idea how strong Piccolo or anyone(except Yamcha ;P) got in the anime. I only discuss the manga, because I havent seen the anime in like 8 years.

I wasn't really talking about strength. I have no idea how strong Piccolo was either. It was just his training method I found interesting, even if it was just filler.

As for Saiyajin developing faster, I don't know. Zenkais are basically your body improving greatly after healing. Normal muscle building is the same process, so it makes sense for Saiyajin's bodies to advance more quickly than a human's. But then again, the guide said that muscle training had a limit, so maybe it's not much of a factor after a certain point.

There is the fact that Goku caught Korin after 3 days when it took Muten Roshi 3 years, but...yeah, that could just be Goku.

The humans mastering Kaio's training quicker than Goku was down to them being stronger than Goku was when they first arrived, I think. But that said, they did all gain an impressive amount of strength training for Vegeta and Nappa.

[USSJed]

Oh, okay. I don't know where people come up with such numbers.

Out of necessity, as Piccolo needs to be stronger than Gero who's gotta be at least 50% Frieza.

It does make sense that having a strong partner to spar against would be beneficial than training against

Certainly, but to such an extent? I find that hard to believe.

I think it's even implied in the guide by specifically mentioning the sparring against Kaio-sama and SSJ Gohan. But by how much I don't know.

Quotes or something? This sounds interesting.

I wasn't really talking about strength. I have no idea how strong Piccolo was either. It was just his training method I found interesting, even if it was just filler.

Krillin meditates too.

There is the fact that Goku caught Korin after 3 days when it took Muten Roshi 3 years, but...yeah, that could just be Goku.

Its Goku. Unless you think Tien/Krillin/Chaotzu/Yamcha also took 3 years to catch Korin?!

The humans mastering Kaio's training quicker than Goku was down to them being stronger than Goku was when they first arrived, I think. But that said, they did all gain an impressive amount of strength training for Vegeta and Nappa.

Do you have a specific number for their powers at the points that they returned to earth after the Saiyan battle?

[Bussani]

Quotes or something? This sounds interesting.

I think you pointed them out yourself. It's from the Goku's training section. During the RoSaT part, Goku gains a few points from "training with a Super Saiyajin". Before that it mentions that he sparred with Kaio-sama during his stay on his planet too. Of course, it may just be listing these to tell us what he was doing, but the fact that it says "sparring with a Super Saiyajin" specifically rather than just "sparring with Gohan" implies to me that it was quite effective. Which makes sense; the tougher your opponent is, the better. In the manga Goku says that Gohan will only be a good sparring partner when he reaches SSJ I think.

Menu 1: sparring with another Super Saiyan
Stamina: 4
Ki: 10

Krillin meditates too.

Everyone does. Even Goku. But Piccolo takes it to the extreme (at least in the filler I mentioned).

Its Goku. Unless you think Tenshinhan/Krillin/Chaotzu/Yamcha also took 3 years to catch Korin?!

For all we know it could have. They did their training in the 3 year gap between 22nd and 23rd budokais. All they said was they did their training there, then went their separate ways.

(Edit: Actually, since Goku's training with Korin was before the 22nd budokai tenkaichi, Tenshinhan must have already been good enough to catch Korin quite easily. Honestly, I'm not sure how much he really could have taught them, they were already stronger than Goku when he first met Korin I think).

But think about it, if 'it's Goku' is an excuse, what about Vegeta? He does a good job of always keeping up with Goku, apart from Goku getting SSJ3. The only characters that advance faster than those two are the half-breeds, and we know for a fact that they gain strength quickly. Also:

Battle Power
They power up each time they are revived.
They achieve an unbelievable power up after returning from the brink of death. They can rapidly increase their battle power by coming close to death through mortal combat and intense training. The stronger their opponent, the stronger they become. That is why they are called a warrior race.

Assuming zenkais are basically the ultimate form of muscles repairing themselves (which is all any muscle training is anyway) it's just a safe bet that they build strength faster than a normal human. At least until their muscles reach their limit.

Do you have a specific number for their powers at the points that they returned to earth after the Saiyan battle?

When they arrived for the battle with Vegeta and Nappa you mean? I think they were all around Raditz level at rest, but Vegeta quickly points out that those numbers are meaningless since they can raise them at will. Herms posted this in the power levels thread:

Piccolo:
-suppressed before Saiyan battle: 1,220 [M]
-maximum during Saiyan battle: 3,500 [D]
Gohan:
-suppressed before Saiyan battle: 981 [M]
-Masenkô: 2,800 [M]
-Great Ape while fighting Vegeta: >9,810 [C]
Kuririn:
-suppressed before Saiyan battle: 1,083 [M]
-maximum during Saiyan battle: 1,770 [D]
Tenshinhan:
-maximum during Nappa battle: 1,830 [D]
Yamcha:
-maximum during Saibamen battle: 1,480 [D]
Chaozu (during Nappa battle): 610 [D]

Edit: If you meant their numbers after returning from Kaio-sama's place, then no. I don't think there are any official power levels for them at that point.

[USSJed]

think you pointed them out yourself. It's from the Goku's training section. During the RoSaT part, Goku gains a few points from "training with a Super Saiyajin". Before that it mentions that he sparred with Kaio-sama during his stay on his planet too. Of course, it may just be listing these to tell us what he was doing, but the fact that it says "sparring with a Super Saiyajin" specifically rather than just "sparring with Gohan" implies to me that it was quite effective. Which makes sense; the tougher your opponent is, the better. In the manga Goku says that Gohan will only be a good sparring partner when he reaches SSJ I think.

IIRC the SSJ training was about the same as King Kai's, give or take 3 or 4 points. Thats good, but its not 50x better than Tiens training as people think it to be. (Which is probably irrelevant to what you were saying, but was the original point of posting that info up)

But think about it, if 'it's Goku' is an excuse, what about Vegeta? He does a good job of always keeping up with Goku, apart from Goku getting SSJ3. The only characters that advance faster than those two are the half-breeds, and we know for a fact that they gain strength quickly. Also:

Vegeta, Piccolo, Tien and possibly Krillin are all 'superior' specimens of their races, each being geniuses(genui??) of their own right. But the thing about Goku is that his haxtastic advantage is so ridiculous it just puts these poor souls to shame.

Assuming zenkais are basically the ultimate form of muscles repairing themselves (which is all any muscle training is anyway) it's just a safe bet that they build strength faster than a normal human. At least until their muscles reach their limit.

Wouldn't the muscle limit be like, Hercule or perhaps Spopovich?

Edit: If you meant their numbers after returning from Kaio-sama's place, then no. I don't think there are any official power levels for them at that point.

I meant your levels, I'm not interested in some bogus 'official' levels.

[Bussani]

IIRC the SSJ training was about the same as King Kai's, give or take 3 or 4 points. Thats good, but its not 50x better than Tenshinhan's training as people think it to be. (Which is probably irrelevant to what you were saying, but was the original point of posting that info up)

Yeah, x50 better training doesn't seem to have any basis. I mean, the stronger you get, the stronger your partner has to be to give you a challenge. That's just logical. I doubt sparring with Kaio-sama would offer much benefit compared to SSJ Gohan in the RoSaT

Wouldn't the muscle limit be like, Mr. Satan or perhaps Spopovich?

I have no idea. Spopovich is a weird case, it's like he's USSJ+ constantly. Mr Satan is probably just naturally a big-framed guy. I can't imagine Goku ever building his body up to that, you know? Visibly Goku's body seems to stop changing (except for transformations) after his training on the way to Namek. I don't know if that means his body totally stopped changing after that point, but the Super Exciting Guide did say that muscle training has a limit, and you need ki to overcome that limit.

The meaning behind that still seems cryptic to me, in the typical way Toriyama's comments tend to be. Does it mean their bodies/muscles stop changing completely and power gains come from building/drawing out/using ki after that point? Or does having more ki let you train your muscles further somehow? Since their muscles stop visibly changing it could be the first. After all, characters can be extremely strong without huge muscles.

I meant your levels, I'm not interested in some bogus 'official' levels.

Eh? Wouldn't anything I make up be even more bogus?

I'd probably say Yamcha would be as strong as Goku when he finished Kaio's training, maybe. Tenshinhan stayed longer and knowing him he used the time to continue training, so he probably would have gotten stronger. Maybe he could have gotten as strong as Piccolo was after fusing with Nail if he really pushed himself?

[USSJed]

The meaning behind that still seems cryptic to me, in the typical way Toriyama's comments tend to be. Does it mean their bodies/muscles stop changing completely and power gains come from building/drawing out/using ki after that point? Or does having more ki let you train your muscles further somehow? Since their muscles stop visibly changing it could be the first. After all, characters can be extremely strong without huge muscles.

Now that I think of it, aren't large, ki fuelled muscles the reason for USSJ Trunks's strength, as well as ASSJ Vegeta?

Eh? Wouldn't anything I make up be even more bogus?

Its only worthy of 70's/80's slang if its claimed to be official

I'd probably say Yamcha would be as strong as Goku when he finished Kaio's training, maybe

What? This is similar to Piccolo getting xuber and humans getting squat in the Android Saga... Piccolo's statements upon arrival on Namek(or just before leaving Kaio's planet) were that his power;

> Frieza(2nd) >>> Frieza(1st) > Vegeta >/>>/>>> Goku(Arrival) >>> Ginyu Force Members >> Vegeta(Zenkai) >> Monster Zarbon > Vegeta > Zarbon > Dodoria > Cui (An estimate based on what they could possibly 'see' from Kaio's planet)

Or that simply, his power > a fighter who is much, much, much stronger than Vegeta(18,000)

Nail was also impressed with Piccolo's strength, after sensing such warriors as Captain Ginyu(Or was it Ginyu Force Members? My memory fails me here). Piccolo was most likely 30,000+ to say the least, in only a week. Which makes it a bit of a stretch for me to believe that Yamcha would only be 8000 or so after 18 weeks of training.