Does Broly have more potential than Son Gohan?

[Saiyavenger2941]

Am I the only one who thinks Broly is nothing special? I really think he was just born powerful, and his legendary SSJ was just its continuity's version of USSJ2.

You're definitely not the only one. I've always believed he was overrated, even before seeing him in action.

[Budokai23]

If there was Mystic Broly he would have unbelievable power. I still think that SS4 Gogeta or Omega Shenron could beat him though.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...But, if he with his Legendary forms taps into later forms's power, that means that his potential isn't that big.
Let's say that he taps into his SSJ2 power, and ends up being defeated by three weak Super Saiya-jins, it implies only that his base power is low, and that if he tapped into the SSJ3 transformation, he would still be inferior to Buu saga SSJ3 Goku's power.
I would say that it implies that his potential is low in that case.
The only special thing about him is that he can tap into any forms's power when being at his LSSJ state without his ki consumption being affected.

Toei had to have a way out thus the “Toei Punch” was born. In addition, any Ki user has to brace or build up a certain amount of Ki in order to withstand certain attacks. We saw this with Vegeta and Kuririn on Planet Namek. Vegeta was leagues beyond Kuririn but Vegeta told him that he would lower his Ki enough so that Kuririn could damage him. In Movie #8 if that last boost of power Kakarrot received was beyond Broli current Ki level Kakarrot could have injured him as we see in the film (but I highly doubt that last boost was enough). However, if Broli had powered up even more the “Toei Punch” would never had been born.

In the manga, they sent Saiya-jin babies to planets with weak populations, like Earth, where there was a full moon.
The plan was that at the full moon, even a Saiya-jin baby with a powerlevel of 10 could erase the population of the said planet in his Oozaru form (100 in PL this time).
Piccolo Damaio could with a powerlevel of roughly 120 blow up cities with ease.
The Oozau form is the Saiya-jin's true, savage, state.
Even Gohan, who couldn't control his Chi yet at his base state, started demolishing Earth with punches and chi blasts when having transformed into an Oozaru. That accounted for Goku also.
So the babies were not intended to fight in their base forms, but their Oozaru forms. Later they would be picked up after a few years when the population was close to zero.

Most of what you said may have been true but I am sure that they would have stumbled upon beings indigenous to the planet prior to the full moon. Like when Grandpa Gohan found Kakarrot, we see that prior to his brain damage Kakarrot used to try to fight with Grandpa Gohan.

Am I the only one who thinks Broly is nothing special? I really think he was just born powerful, and his legendary SSJ was just its continuity's version of USSJ2.

The Daizenshuu states that the Legendary form is an “instinct driven form” and I think it also posits it as being unique only to Broli. That is special enough for me.

[Wojak]

Toei had to have a way out thus the “Toei Punch” was born. In addition, any Ki user has to brace or build up a certain amount of Ki in order to withstand certain attacks. We saw this with Vegeta and Kuririn on Planet Namek. Vegeta was leagues beyond Kuririn but Vegeta told him that he would lower his Ki enough so that Kuririn could damage him. In Movie #8 if that last boost of power Kakarrot received was beyond Broli current Ki level Kakarrot could have injured him as we see in the film (but I highly doubt that last boost was enough). However, if Broli had powered up even more the “Toei Punch” would never had been born.

I was referring to Gohan, Goten and Trunks, because of that in movie 8 only three half-dead Saiya-jins's and Piccolo's power were enough to kill him.
Obviously, there was a huge zenkai involved in movie 10, as Gohan (superior in power than he was in movie and Goten and Trunks could defeat him, not being half-dead.

The question is also if Brolly could power up more in movie 8.
Knowing that he is a sadistic devil, he sure could have powered up to max to inflict maximum pain and damage to the others.

But, then, Toei decided that that punch from Goku in movie 8 was enough to beat Brolly, so I guess they meant that the power of Brolly then was even lesser than the one of beaten-to-pulp Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Piccolo. So we'll have to go by that, since Toei says so...

On Topic, I think that Brolly didn't have any greater potential than Goku or Vegeta, since it seems like a Saiya-jin, once they go over the treshold of their limits, can maximally reach that level, unless they were half-breed.
So, he wouldn't ever go near Gohan's power, or Vegetto's power.
But if we count in GT, Goku and Vegeta surpass Gohan by far, so by that logic, Brolly could too, since Gohan already had his max potential.

[Deep Thought]

Saying "We never saw Broly's full potential, so, therefore, he could be stronger than Vegeto!" is asinine.

We never saw Nappa's full potential, so I guess, with his full potential, he'd be as strong as Vegeto, right?

Right?

[Saiyan-Professor]

…I was referring to Gohan, Goten and Trunks, because of that in movie 8 only three half-dead Saiya-jins's and Piccolo's power were enough to kill him.
Obviously, there was a huge zenkai involved in movie 10, as Gohan (superior in power than he was in movie and Goten and Trunks could defeat him, not being half-dead.

The question is also if Brolly could power up more in movie 8.
Knowing that he is a sadistic devil, he sure could have powered up to max to inflict maximum pain and damage to the others.

Broli was already overpowering them by a large margin to begin with; he became over confident in his power, which just about every Saiyan have done in the series. Therefore, after the first one or two attempts were not enough Broli just felt that the last try at power lending would fail also.

But, then, Toei decided that that punch from Goku in movie 8 was enough to beat Brolly, so I guess they meant that the power of Brolly then was even lesser than the one of beaten-to-pulp Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Piccolo. So we'll have to go by that, since Toei says so...

Could you rephrase the above I did not understand what you meant?

On Topic, I think that Brolly didn't have any greater potential than Goku or Vegeta, since it seems like a Saiya-jin, once they go over the treshold of their limits, can maximally reach that level, unless they were half-breed.
So, he wouldn't ever go near Gohan's power, or Vegetto's power.
But if we count in GT, Goku and Vegeta surpass Gohan by far, so by that logic, Brolly could too, since Gohan already had his max potential.

That is the thing the same rules do not apply to Broli’s Legendary transformation as far as we know of, the Daizenshuu goes out its way to make that transformation totally distinct from the others. Herms translated attack guide says that it is an “instinct driven form” see also this and the notes on Movie #10.

[Bussani]

Just because Broli was strong at birth doesn't mean he has a large hidden potential like Gohan did. For all we know, Broli had reached his hidden potential at birth, though that's probably exaggerating.

There's no reason to think that he would have more hidden power than Gohan, since Gohan is the authority on hidden power. There's no technical reason that he couldn't either, I suppose.

Edit: I think his hidden potential would be comparable to the other Saiyajin, possibly higher. If you made him Mystic from how he was in the first movie we saw him, he probably wouldn't be as strong or much stronger than SSJ3 Goku from the Buu saga. That's all just conjecture and opinion though.

[Saiyavenger2941]

There's no technical reason that he couldn't either, I suppose.

Two words: Half breed.

[Saiyan-Professor]

There's no technical reason that he couldn't either, I suppose.

Two words: Half breed.

Even though half-breeds have great potential, the human blood dilutes the Saiyan aggressiveness that would push them to achieve that potential. Thus, full bloods take longer to reach certain levels but they gain the upper hand in the end because they will continue to push themselves beyond their limits.

[Daburcor]

Does Broly have more potential than Son Gohan?

Not if you go by canon/non-canon. Then there is no Broly. *oooooweeeeeooooo*

[Piccolo Daimao]

Am I the only one who thinks Broly is nothing special? I really think he was just born powerful, and his legendary SSJ was just its continuity's version of USSJ2.

You're not the only one. I always thought Broly was so overrated. I see people on Youtube commenting on "DBZ Top Ten Lists", verbally abusing the video maker, saying that Broly should be number one when 1, he isn't even canon and 2, he's an overrated and unoriginal villain. I don't think LSSJ Broly is stronger than Perfect Cell's full power.

@Daburcor - Say, if Broly was canon (which he's not). So that's what this thread is about, if Broly, who is a non-canon character, has more potential than Son Gohan, a canon character. Broly doesn't exist in the canon world, but I'm saying if he did.

[rereboy]

Saying "We never saw Broly's full potential, so, therefore, he could be stronger than Vegeto!" is asinine.

We never saw Nappa's full potential, so I guess, with his full potential, he'd be as strong as Vegeto, right?

Right?

Wrong.

The all point of Brolly is that his potential is immense. It implies that is greater than any other sayan. We just don`t know exactily how much potential is that.

Its logical to me that Mystic Brolly would be stronger than Mystic Gohan. We just don`t know if it would be enough to rival Vegetto.

Still when we compare him to Vegetto, he are comparing one character to two character fused together.

However it is completely unreasonable to think that mystic Nappa could be as strong as mystic Brolly or Vegetto just because we don`t know exactily his potential.
Just think about it. Nappa is over 50 years old in the Sayan arc. Most of his life already went by and he didn`t even reach a power of over 10000. Mystic Nappa could be a lot stronger than 10000, but to think that he would reach Vegetto level just because we dont know exactily how much potential he has is completely unreasonable.

[Bussani]

Saying "We never saw Broly's full potential, so, therefore, he could be stronger than Vegeto!" is asinine.

We never saw Nappa's full potential, so I guess, with his full potential, he'd be as strong as Vegeto, right?

Right?

Wrong.

The all point of Brolly is that his potential is immense. It implies that is greater than any other sayan. We just don`t know exactily how much potential is that.

Its logical to me that Mystic Brolly would be stronger than Mystic Gohan. We just don`t know if it would be enough to rival Vegetto.

Still when we compare him to Vegetto, he are comparing one character to two character fused together.

However it is completely unreasonable to think that mystic Nappa could be as strong as mystic Brolly or Vegetto just because we don`t know exactily his potential.
Just think about it. Nappa is over 50 years old in the Sayan arc. Most of his life already went by and he didn`t even reach a power of over 10000. Mystic Nappa could be a lot stronger than 10000, but to think that he would reach Vegetto level just because we dont know exactily how much potential he has is completely unreasonable.

Doesn't the movie only imply that Broly was born with a huge amount of power? Which we see, because he kicks the crap out of everyone. There's no way of knowing if he has any more power than that hiding away, though, which is what the Mystic Power Up would be drawing out.

He could have, he could not have. There's literally no way of knowing.

[Herms]

Piccolo Damaio could with a powerlevel of roughly 120 blow up cities with ease.

Daimao's battle power was actually 260.

[rereboy]

Saying "We never saw Broly's full potential, so, therefore, he could be stronger than Vegeto!" is asinine.

We never saw Nappa's full potential, so I guess, with his full potential, he'd be as strong as Vegeto, right?

Right?

Wrong.

The all point of Brolly is that his potential is immense. It implies that is greater than any other sayan. We just don`t know exactily how much potential is that.

Its logical to me that Mystic Brolly would be stronger than Mystic Gohan. We just don`t know if it would be enough to rival Vegetto.

Still when we compare him to Vegetto, he are comparing one character to two character fused together.

However it is completely unreasonable to think that mystic Nappa could be as strong as mystic Brolly or Vegetto just because we don`t know exactily his potential.
Just think about it. Nappa is over 50 years old in the Sayan arc. Most of his life already went by and he didn`t even reach a power of over 10000. Mystic Nappa could be a lot stronger than 10000, but to think that he would reach Vegetto level just because we dont know exactily how much potential he has is completely unreasonable.

Doesn't the movie only imply that Broly was born with a huge amount of power? Which we see, because he kicks the crap out of everyone. There's no way of knowing if he has any more power than that hiding away, though, which is what the Mystic Power Up would be drawing out.

He could have, he could not have. There's literally no way of knowing.

True, but it is far more likely that he has much more than the opposite.

Remember, as far as he know (and is implied on movie 8 ) he never had to train seriously to obtain the power he has in movie 8. Up to that point he only destroyed everything when he got enraged until his father started to control his mind.

He never had any master to learn from (kaio, turtle hermit, piccolo in gohan`s case), never had to spend months/years trying to push his limits to become stronger, never trained in 100 G gravity or superior...

It is logical that he could go on much further with training and especially mystic ritual.

However we have no way of knowing. It is possible that he was almost as strong as he could be in the movies. But I doubt it.

[Bussani]

True, but it is far more likely that he has much more than the opposite.

Remember, as far as he know (and is implied on movie 8 ) he never had to train seriously to obtain the power he has in movie 8. Up to that point he only destroyed everything when he got enraged until his father started to control his mind.

He never had any master to learn from (kaio, turtle hermit, piccolo in gohan`s case), never had to spend months/years trying to push his limits to become stronger, never trained in 100 G gravity or superior...

It is logical that he could go on much further with training and especially mystic ritual.

However we have no way of knowing. It is possible that he was almost as strong as he could be in the movies. But I doubt it.

There's no law saying that just because you haven't trained, you must still have ki that is hidden. Broly's a weird case. It could just be that he has access to all of his ki from the start, and that's why he's so strong, rather than he's ridiculously strong and still only using a fraction of his true potential.

I would guess that he would get stronger with the Mystic Upgrade, but personally, I don't think it would be as strong as Mystic Gohan. Maybe not even SSJ3 Goku.

[Wojak]

…I was referring to Gohan, Goten and Trunks, because of that in movie 8 only three half-dead Saiya-jins's and Piccolo's power were enough to kill him.
Obviously, there was a huge zenkai involved in movie 10, as Gohan (superior in power than he was in movie and Goten and Trunks could defeat him, not being half-dead.

The question is also if Brolly could power up more in movie 8.
Knowing that he is a sadistic devil, he sure could have powered up to max to inflict maximum pain and damage to the others.

Broli was already overpowering them by a large margin to begin with; he became over confident in his power, which just about every Saiyan have done in the series. Therefore, after the first one or two attempts were not enough Broli just felt that the last try at power lending would fail also.

But, then, Toei decided that that punch from Goku in movie 8 was enough to beat Brolly, so I guess they meant that the power of Brolly then was even lesser than the one of beaten-to-pulp Vegeta, Goku, Gohan, Trunks and Piccolo. So we'll have to go by that, since Toei says so...

Could you rephrase the above I did not understand what you meant?

On Topic, I think that Brolly didn't have any greater potential than Goku or Vegeta, since it seems like a Saiya-jin, once they go over the treshold of their limits, can maximally reach that level, unless they were half-breed.
So, he wouldn't ever go near Gohan's power, or Vegetto's power.
But if we count in GT, Goku and Vegeta surpass Gohan by far, so by that logic, Brolly could too, since Gohan already had his max potential.

That is the thing the same rules do not apply to Broli’s Legendary transformation as far as we know of, the Daizenshuu goes out its way to make that transformation totally distinct from the others. Herms translated attack guide says that it is an “instinct driven form” see also this and the notes on Movie #10.

The part that you didn't understand: I meant that if Toei wanted Brolly to be weak enough to be taken out by those Saiya-jins and Piccolo, we'll have to be fine with it. The creators of the story thought so, and in this non-canon situation, Toei is right, because this occurs in their own movie-universe.

Instincts does not make you stronger than anyone else. Sure, if you are stronger than someone, instincts can put you up over someone's power, like Gohan's rage vs. Cell, or Kuririn's kick to Nappa. But it may also fail, like Gohan's rage in his fight against Recoome. He surely got stronger by his rage, but he didn't get strong enough.
Why do I put rage into ìnto the instincts-category? Well, mostly Gohan's instincts (being thrown at a cliff, seeing someone get hurt) puts him in a rage mode.
You can't go into an infinite power or an abnormally high power just with instincts, even if it's a Super Transformation you have.
Gohan's SSJ2 didn't give him an automatic victory over Cell. And by that time it was an instinct-driven transformation.

About Brolly overpowering them: Sure, he thought this, he thought that. But in the end he was defeated by those three.

@ Herms: Thanks, forgot that.

But still, a Saiya-jin baby Oozaru could have rampaged the Earth with success.
See Jackie Chun destroying the moon, albeit it's not that of a strong argument.
Other than that, Goku showed in his early Oozaru form that he was capable of that.
And probably they would gain power during the time through zenkais and physical effort, making them stronger as Oozarus.

I would also mention that if Brolly didn't train, his regular SSJ form would be inferior to SSJ Vegeta, who couldn't put a scratch on him.
I mean, if he didn't train he would be at 10.000 still in base.
Sure if the LSSJ transformation taps into his hidden potential. But we forget that his regular SSJ transformation was superior to Vegeta's.
So my conclusion was that Brolly did train a lot. He was controlled in the end, and his father probably put him to training for him to release his agressions, making it easier to control him.

[rereboy]

True, but it is far more likely that he has much more than the opposite.

Remember, as far as he know (and is implied on movie 8 ) he never had to train seriously to obtain the power he has in movie 8. Up to that point he only destroyed everything when he got enraged until his father started to control his mind.

He never had any master to learn from (kaio, turtle hermit, piccolo in gohan`s case), never had to spend months/years trying to push his limits to become stronger, never trained in 100 G gravity or superior...

It is logical that he could go on much further with training and especially mystic ritual.

However we have no way of knowing. It is possible that he was almost as strong as he could be in the movies. But I doubt it.

There's no law saying that just because you haven't trained, you must still have ki that is hidden. Broly's a weird case. It could just be that he has access to all of his ki from the start, and that's why he's so strong, rather than he's ridiculously strong and still only using a fraction of his true potential.

I would guess that he would get stronger with the Mystic Upgrade, but personally, I don't think it would be as strong as Mystic Gohan. Maybe not even SSJ3 Goku.

I really don`t see why you would think that.

It is possible like I said that things are just as you say, but since we are only guessing here, I really don`t see how you think that is more likely than the opposite.

I mean, gohan has tremendous power right from an early age (fight with raditz), but with training, with the namekian elder awakening, with all the power ups he got from healing, and the mystic ritual, he became so much stronger than that and became his full potential.

Now, lets think about brolly. He also was born with tremendous power. But far more than that of gohan. And as he got older he became more and more powerfull without any kind of training or techinique that gohan was put throught. In fact it worked the way around. While the Z fighters were always concerned about getting stronger, Brolly never had to worry about that, and was even forced to contain his power by his father.

Now imagine if brolly went through all that gohan went through.. All the power ups from healing, all the training he had to do to fight stronger enemies, the namekian awakening, the mystic ritual...

There is really nothing to suggest that brolly was even close to his full potential, and movie 8 really tries to suggest that brolly is the most gifted sayan of all.

And when I compare what gohan had to go through to get his power and brolly, it only suggests me that Mystic Brolly would be stronger than Mystic Gohan.

It is possible that that things work as you say but I don`t see how is that more likely than the opposite, since there are many things that suggest the opposite.

[Bussani]

We might just be thinking about the meaning behind the terms in different ways. It depends how you define full potential and the mystic upgrade. Is Mystic Gohan as strong as he ever could be? Can he still improve? All we know is that the Mystic power up draws your 'hidden power' out beyond it's limits.

I'm not saying Broly can't improve. I'm just saying there's no way of knowing if he has dormant ki that would be drawn out. And if he does, there's nothing to indicate it would be as much as Gohan had.

[rereboy]

In my opinion, the mystic ritual turns one person into the strongest he could possibly be.

It`s like he had all the training in the world, all his hidden powers are all out, and his body is in its maximum form, all at the same time. Therefore one in mystic form can not improve (except with a fusion). In my opinion, when the author invented the mystic ritual, that`s what he was thinking.

I say this because mystic Gohan didn`t have to turn SSJ anymore, he was stronger than a SSJ3 and didn`t become stronger from healing while fighting super buu. To me it all sugests that the mystic ritual is what I think it is.
And I don`t consider GT because its full of plot holes and GT wasn´t even dreamed when the author wrote/drew the mystic ritual.

I don`t find this idea (strongest he could possibly be) unreasonable because mystic gohan was the most powerfull character in Z if we don`t consider the fusions, the absorptions of Buu (because they imply the power of more than one character) and GT (because of the plot holes).

In my opinion, by the end of Z, the Z fighters were already reaching their limit. Even Goku was almost there. I believe he could master SSJ3 state while living but I dont think he could improve much more. I believe that is why the author introduced the fusions (so that thay could be even stronger).
(Even if we consider GT regarding this, Goku only got stronger by having his tail back, by having energy given to him by other characters and with fusions.
If we really want to consider GT then maybe the mystic ritual isn`t able to bring out the power that the tail can give a sayan if the sayan doesn`t have one, but in every other way, it turns you into the strongest you could possibly be).

Because of this and because of what I already wrote, I think Mystic Brolly would be stronger than Mystic Gohan.