More Saiyans?

[Herms]

Herms stated that the Dragonball GT Perfect Files says that the original home planet of the Saiyans may be still be out there in space intact.

It says that, but it also makes it clear that Goku is the last surviving Saiyan (after Baby takes over everyone else on Earth and they apparently don't count anymore), so they don't seem to be implying that "Planer Saiya" still has any Saiyans on it.

Wait... didn't GT say that a Super Saiyan destroyed Vegeta and the Saiyans that arrived on Plant were the survivors?

No, not in the Japanese version anyway.

[Saiyan-Professor]

Herms stated that the Dragonball GT Perfect Files says that the original home planet of the Saiyans may be still be out there in space intact.

It says that, but it also makes it clear that Goku is the last surviving Saiyan (after Baby takes over everyone else on Earth and they apparently don't count anymore), so they don't seem to be implying that "Planer Saiya" still has any Saiyans on it...

What do you mean about they did not count anymore? Is that from Bebi’s perspective? All he knew of was the Saiyans that arrived on Planet Plant, or was that the Perfect Files editors specifically stating that the planet may still exist but it is barren.

[Olivier Hague]

Onio is manga-canon, depending on how you look at it.

Well, anything can be canon depending on how you look at it...

If you consider any other manga of Toriyama's in the Dragon World to be part of DB canon, then there's no problem with Onio.

... but if you're a bit more thoughtful than that...

[Herms]

What do you mean about they did not count anymore? Is that from Bebi’s perspective? All he knew of was the Saiyans that arrived on Planet Plant, or was that the Perfect Files editors specifically stating that the planet may still exist but it is barren.

The timeline describes Goku as the last Saiyan during his fight with Baby.

[Raki]

Herms stated that the Dragonball GT Perfect Files says that the original home planet of the Saiyans may be still be out there in space intact.

It says that, but it also makes it clear that Goku is the last surviving Saiyan (after Baby takes over everyone else on Earth and they apparently don't count anymore), so they don't seem to be implying that "Planer Saiya" still has any Saiyans on it...

What do you mean about they did not count anymore? Is that from Bebi’s perspective? All he knew of was the Saiyans that arrived on Planet Plant, or was that the Perfect Files editors specifically stating that the planet may still exist but it is barren.

If the Planet is barren then it has no life. No life means no Saiyans on it. So Goku would be the last one left.

[Saiyan-Professor]

What do you mean about they did not count anymore? Is that from Bebi’s perspective? All he knew of was the Saiyans that arrived on Planet Plant, or was that the Perfect Files editors specifically stating that the planet may still exist but it is barren.

The timeline describes Goku as the last Saiyan during his fight with Baby.

Is that the last (pure blood) Saiyan on earth, in the vicinity of the earth (Planet Plant) or the universe?

[Herms]

It just says "the last".

[xXHokageSonGokuXx]

Realistically, more Saiyans had to be on missions, adults and infants. It's rather convenient that an /entire/ race of intergalactic space pirates were all on their home planet the /one/ day Freeza decides to off them.

The best assumption we can make is that they lived their lives killing people, came to Vegeta's orbit, found the planet gone, and eventually died of old age or were killed themselves. They'd have no reason to go to Earth unless they had ties to Goku, which they most likely didn't. They probably didn't know Vegeta was still alive either.

I agree I mean 1 day all the saiyans are there, they either died of old age or they just went of orbit in space!

[Saiyan-Professor]

It just says "the last".

If it just says that then it could go either way, for we know that he was not the last even if one argues that no one is on Planet Saiya. Tarble was out there even though we all know that he was not created yet when the Perfect Files were written, but from an in universe perspective the facts show that the Saiyans on earth and especially Kakarrot was not the last of their race.

Realistically, more Saiyans had to be on missions, adults and infants. It's rather convenient that an /entire/ race of intergalactic space pirates were all on their home planet the /one/ day Freeza decides to off them.

The best assumption we can make is that they lived their lives killing people, came to Vegeta's orbit, found the planet gone, and eventually died of old age or were killed themselves. They'd have no reason to go to Earth unless they had ties to Goku, which they most likely didn't. They probably didn't know Vegeta was still alive either.

I agree I mean 1 day all the saiyans are there, they either died of old age or they just went of orbit in space!

I seriously doubt that any Saiyan lived to a ripe old age. Most likely, for centuries they all died in combat therefore I suspect that there was some kind of mandated breeding program in order to sustain the race.

By the way, love the Kyūbi no Yōko (Nine-Tailed Demon Fox) avatar.

[Dayspring]

If you consider any other manga of Toriyama's in the Dragon World to be part of DB canon, then there's no problem with Onio.

... but if you're a bit more thoughtful than that...

UGH. Allow me to complete your train of thought so that we can pretend you weren't being needlessly offensive just for the sake of it.

"... you'll realise that NMZ acknowledges itself as being a gag-manga, and thus any minor continuity errors do not cause any problems with the overall continuity."


@Prof: It makes sense though. Pre-Vegeta, the Saiyans are planet raiders. It doesn't make sense for any to be left behind, unless they plan on dying. As for Tarble, a simple in-story explanation for that could be that he died in the next 13-14 years.

[Terra-jin]

The Bardock special implied that those sent on missions (with the exception of Radditz and Nappa) were killed off by Freeza's various soldiers.

Those were only the Saiyans that showed an abnormal increase in strength (from low-level to elite in just a few fights). Freeza was afraid of the Super Saiyan emerging from one of those exceptional Saiyans. He was also afraid that an even stronger Saiyan would be born on planet Vegeta, so that's why he wiped out the planet. I don't think he really cared about the few Saiyans that were left, since he didn't think the SSj would be among the survivors. Ironically, of course, we have both Goku and Broly.

I also think that there were never that many Saiyans. It's like a small village - there's only so many of them and they all know each other. The empire also knows all the Saiyans personally. This would explain how there weren't any more survivors (well, other than the FIVE non-canon Saiyans ) and why both Freeza and Vegeta were so sure of it.

That does leave Goku. Why did Raditz know and Freeza not? There's some inconsistency here. Halfway through the Namek saga, Zarbon mentions "the Saiyan that lives on Earth and his child", implying that Freeza knew about Goku. Later on, when Freeza is in the third form, he says he only let Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta live.
Also, on some translations, in the bit where Freeza remembers Bardock, Freeza also remembers baby Goku and says that "he would regret surviving". This would mean that Freeza did know about Goku all along but just didn't care (for the above-mentioned reasons).

[Saiyan-Professor]

...@Prof: It makes sense though. Pre-Vegeta, the Saiyans are planet raiders. It doesn't make sense for any to be left behind, unless they plan on dying. As for Tarble, a simple in-story explanation for that could be that he died in the next 13-14 years.

Well I seriously doubt that every single Saiyan would have left Saiya and then ended up on Planet Plant. I like to believe that the group that Vegeta and Kakarrot descended from left Planet Saiya, sustained damage to their ships while raiding elsewhere, and crash-landed on Plant. Given their hunger for power, they decided to eradicate the Tsufuruians and take over the planet along with the Tsufuruian technology. Given the Saiyans overall callousness, those that remained on Saiya did not give a damn and went on with their lives.

Personally, I do not think the Perfect Files editors threw the idea out there that the planet may still be in existence for no reason at all. If Dragonball GT would have continued, we may have actually seen the planet and perhaps other Saiyans. Concerning Tarble, he did not have to die; past characters hardly are referenced at all once their purpose has been served. How many times was Mirai Trunks spoken of once the Artificial Humans story arc was completed?

[Dayspring]

The Bardock special implied that those sent on missions (with the exception of Radditz and Nappa) were killed off by Freeza's various soldiers.

Those were only the Saiyans that showed an abnormal increase in strength (from low-level to elite in just a few fights). Freeza was afraid of the Super Saiyan emerging from one of those exceptional Saiyans.

What? Was this in the dub or something? That's not the case at all; Dodoria's goons clearly assumed Bardock and his crew were just another bunch of Low Level Saiyans. They even freak over Bardock's strength, despite being a Low Level.

He was also afraid that an even stronger Saiyan would be born on planet Vegeta, so that's why he wiped out the planet. I don't think he really cared about the few Saiyans that were left, since he didn't think the SSj would be among the survivors. Ironically, of course, we have both Goku and Broly.

This always bugged me about Freeza. He's afraid one might become the SSJ, yet he keeps the likely candidate (Vegeta) as a pet.

I also think that there were never that many Saiyans. It's like a small village - there's only so many of them and they all know each other. The empire also knows all the Saiyans personally. This would explain how there weren't any more survivors (well, other than the FIVE non-canon Saiyans ) and why both Freeza and Vegeta were so sure of it.

Yeah, my own personal theory is that there's less than 1,000 total.

That does leave Goku. Why did Raditz know and Freeza not? There's some inconsistency here. Halfway through the Namek saga, Zarbon mentions "the Saiyan that lives on Earth and his child", implying that Freeza knew about Goku. Later on, when Freeza is in the third form, he says he only let Raditz, Nappa and Vegeta live.
Also, on some translations, in the bit where Freeza remembers Bardock, Freeza also remembers baby Goku and says that "he would regret surviving". This would mean that Freeza did know about Goku all along but just didn't care (for the above-mentioned reasons).

Radditz knew because Goku's his brother. Freeza had no reason to know. When did Zarbon say that comment, though?

@Prof: I agree that they probably crashed under the circumstances you suggest, but I strongly believe they all left together. It's in their nature: they all like to fight, so I doubt any would want to stay behind, let alone when everyone else is leaving. Plus, if they're nomads, they'd all likely leave together. They go to one planet, take what they want, leave for the next. Maybe the crash was caused by too much stuff being in the ship, and they used it as an excuse to finally become sedentary.

[Saiyan-Professor]

...@Prof: I agree that they probably crashed under the circumstances you suggest, but I strongly believe they all left together. It's in their nature: they all like to fight, so I doubt any would want to stay behind, let alone when everyone else is leaving. Plus, if they're nomads, they'd all likely leave together. They go to one planet, take what they want, leave for the next. Maybe the crash was caused by too much stuff being in the ship, and they used it as an excuse to finally become sedentary.

I do not think they were nomads look at the Vikings they went, pillaged, raped, and returned home with the spoils. In addition, why would they all go on one trip when you are in a galaxy, better yet a universe full of planets and then you focus all your resources on one area? I agree with you that they may be no more than a thousand that landed on Plant but I seriously doubt that the entire population was present. Unless some type of ecological disaster took place on Saiya.

Hey, that sounds like a good theme for a fanfic. The missing GT Saga, the earth Saiyans learn that Saiya is still out there and they take an adventure to check it out and they find some mutant Saiyans. They are mutants because they remained on Saiya and the adverse effects on the environment changed them over the years.

[JulieYBM]

...@Prof: I agree that they probably crashed under the circumstances you suggest, but I strongly believe they all left together. It's in their nature: they all like to fight, so I doubt any would want to stay behind, let alone when everyone else is leaving. Plus, if they're nomads, they'd all likely leave together. They go to one planet, take what they want, leave for the next. Maybe the crash was caused by too much stuff being in the ship, and they used it as an excuse to finally become sedentary.

I do not think they were nomads look at the Vikings they went, pillaged, raped, and returned home with the spoils. In addition, why would they all go on one trip when you are in a galaxy, better yet a universe full of planets and then you focus all your resources on one area? I agree with you that they may be no more than a thousand that landed on Plant but I seriously doubt that the entire population was present. Unless some type of ecological disaster took place on Saiya.

Hey, that sounds like a good theme for a fanfic. The missing GT Saga, the earth Saiyans learn that Saiya is still out there and they take an adventure to check it out and they find some mutant Saiyans. They are mutants because they remained on Saiya and the adverse effects on the environment changed them over the years.

I've actually been working on something very similar (although my idea probably would entail this mutation being Super Saiyan 4 or something akin).

[Dayspring]

...@Prof: I agree that they probably crashed under the circumstances you suggest, but I strongly believe they all left together. It's in their nature: they all like to fight, so I doubt any would want to stay behind, let alone when everyone else is leaving. Plus, if they're nomads, they'd all likely leave together. They go to one planet, take what they want, leave for the next. Maybe the crash was caused by too much stuff being in the ship, and they used it as an excuse to finally become sedentary.

I do not think they were nomads look at the Vikings they went, pillaged, raped, and returned home with the spoils. In addition, why would they all go on one trip when you are in a galaxy, better yet a universe full of planets and then you focus all your resources on one area? I agree with you that they may be no more than a thousand that landed on Plant but I seriously doubt that the entire population was present. Unless some type of ecological disaster took place on Saiya.

But they're not nomadic pillagers, they're nomadic conquerors. Vikings would go back and forth, but a flat out nomadic conqueror will stay wherever he invaded. Plus Freeza wanted all Saiyans dead. I doubt he'd let the vast majority of the race live.

Hey, that sounds like a good theme for a fanfic. The missing GT Saga, the earth Saiyans learn that Saiya is still out there and they take an adventure to check it out and they find some mutant Saiyans. They are mutants because they remained on Saiya and the adverse effects on the environment changed them over the years.

I remember a few years back I wrote a fanfic that had the Saiyans of Plant being the weaklings who simply couldn't transform. They left in a "rule in Hell" fashion. The Legendary SSJ was planned to end up being something else entirely.

[Terra-jin]

What? Was this in the dub or something? That's not the case at all; Dodoria's goons clearly assumed Bardock and his crew were just another bunch of Low Level Saiyans. They even freak over Bardock's strength, despite being a Low Level.

? I don't really understand how your comments contradict mine... Bardock's crew were officially low-level, but they were exterminated because they went above their level (Bardock even outclassed Dodoria's elites). All the Saiyans who went above their level were marked by Freeza. This is all (either explicitly or implicitly) stated in the Japanese version.
The reason that Freeza wanted them dead was because they were getting too close for comfort (strength-wise, of course). Later, Freeza decided that too many Saiyans approached that level and he destroyed planet Vegeta in order to just be done with them... the few surviving Saiyans could just be monitored - that way the threat was contained. It was easier to control a handful of Saiyans than to keep watching the level of each and every Saiyan on the planet.

When did Zarbon say that comment, though?

That comment is from when Freeza reprimands Zarbon about letting Vegeta live. When Freeza talks about the threat he feels coming from the Saiyan survivors, Zarbon mentions Goku and Gohan (who he must have heard of in Vegeta's earlier transmissions, the same that sent Freeza to Namek).

[Saiyan-Professor]

...But they're not nomadic pillagers, they're nomadic conquerors. Vikings would go back and forth, but a flat out nomadic conqueror will stay wherever he invaded. Plus Freeza wanted all Saiyans dead. I doubt he'd let the vast majority of the race live.

Where does it ever state that they are nomadic anything, does the Daizenshuu or the SEG say that anywhere? I believe that Freeza would not have known about Saiya and if there were any others. His dealings were with the ones that were on Plant/Vegeta. If Planet Saiya was far off in some secluded part of the universe, they were of no consequence to King Vegeta since they were the ones that Freeza was dealing and had made a name for themselves.

I remember a few years back I wrote a fanfic that had the Saiyans of Plant being the weaklings who simply couldn't transform. They left in a "rule in Hell" fashion. The Legendary SSJ was planned to end up being something else entirely.

PM me some of your stuff I would love to read some of them.

[Olivier Hague]

Allow me to complete your train of thought so that we can pretend you weren't being needlessly offensive just for the sake of it.

"Just for the sake of it"?
I thought my point was clear enough already, that's all.

"... you'll realise that NMZ acknowledges itself as being a gag-manga, and thus any minor continuity errors do not cause any problems with the overall continuity."

Or "... and thus continuity was thrown out of the window from the get-go".
Hardly the ideal candidate for inclusion into any canon, sorry...

[Dayspring]

What? Was this in the dub or something? That's not the case at all; Dodoria's goons clearly assumed Bardock and his crew were just another bunch of Low Level Saiyans. They even freak over Bardock's strength, despite being a Low Level.

? I don't really understand how your comments contradict mine... Bardock's crew were officially low-level, but they were exterminated because they went above their level (Bardock even outclassed Dodoria's elites). All the Saiyans who went above their level were marked by Freeza. This is all (either explicitly or implicitly) stated in the Japanese version.

Can you give an example? It always implied every Saiyan, both in the series and in the special. Meanwhile, how would Freeza know Bardock suddenly became elite in strength?

The reason that Freeza wanted them dead was because they were getting too close for comfort (strength-wise, of course). Later, Freeza decided that too many Saiyans approached that level and he destroyed planet Vegeta in order to just be done with them... the few surviving Saiyans could just be monitored - that way the threat was contained. It was easier to control a handful of Saiyans than to keep watching the level of each and every Saiyan on the planet.

And that handful was Vegeta and his entourage. Apart them, and for babies like Goku (*cough*and Onio*cough*), every Saiyan was exterminated, so as to make sure the SSJ potential couldn't come to pass. That's why there's no Saiyan females left alive.

When did Zarbon say that comment, though?

That comment is from when Freeza reprimands Zarbon about letting Vegeta live. When Freeza talks about the threat he feels coming from the Saiyan survivors, Zarbon mentions Goku and Gohan (who he must have heard of in Vegeta's earlier transmissions, the same that sent Freeza to Namek).

Vegeta's the one who gave Zarbon that info in the preceeding battle, though.