Why did Toriyama bow down to his editors?

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:55 am

Well, I have to agree on one point.... 19 and 20 did look rather stupid when you think about it- it was basically just a fat guy and an old man with a brain helmet.

However, I would be curious to have seen how Toriyama would have handled making 17 and 18 into the ultimate villains of that saga, or if he had been allowed to give Cell more adventures before making him perfect. Make for an interesting "What If".

I doubt Toriyama ever would but, it would be nice if he got to go back and remake DBZ exactly the way he wanted it to be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk

Also, Jesus Christ, that Jon Peters guy sounds like one complete fucking idiot. I barely know him but I already feel like slapping him. Actually, the more I keep reading about him the more I feel like slapping him.

It's sad when you think about how many people in Hollywood must be like him- and how on earth did he become so rich and powerful anyway? He started as a hairdresser for Streisand, sounds like one really unlikely career start for the top of Hollywood.

In any case, Toriyama's editor may have been an asshole but at least he had some good ideas, unlike Jon Peters who is just an asshole without any good ideas.

aarondirebear · Post by **aarondirebear** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:11 am

GS7X7 wrote:I remember long ago that there was an article where Toriyama talked about how his editor/sa basically forced him to keep changing his story during the Cell saga. (I tried finding it on Greg's page but the links seems to be down at the moment and his old site is blocked from the internet archives Planet Namek-style)

He disliked the first two android ("too old") so he forced Toriyama to changed them.

He disliked the two new androids ("teenagers") so he again forced Toriyama to make something new.

He disliked Cell so he forced Toriyama to change him.

Toriyama grew to really like Cell's 2nd form and had a lot planned for it. But ol Torishima deemed him too ugly and stupid looking so Toriyama changed it AGAIN.

Finally, at long last, his dick of an editor was satisfied with Perfect Cell.

My question is, why did Toriyama basically let himself become his editor's bitch? It was his story and it was pretty huge in Japan at the time, wasn't he powerful enough that he could have held the manga hostage and simply done what he wanted to regardless of what Torishima wanted? Why did Toriyama keep submitting to him so passively?

Are manga editors really all that powerful that even the biggest of manga authors feel the need to bow down to all of their whims? Or are there manga authors who actively resist and fight against doing whatever their editors demand?

(also, here's a fresh link with the article-

http://www.kanzentai.com/daiz02.php?id=shenron_times)

-------------------
Kazuhiko Torishima (initial editor)

Was the editor continuing from "Dr. Slump" until the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai in "DragonBall". It seems that he was the individual who served as the model for Piccolo Daimao.

AT: You're terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when the Artificial Humans No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren't my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say "I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren't these just a geezer and a fatso?" (laughs) In truth, I hadn't had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said "What, this time it's just some brats?" So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

FT: So you hadn't planned on Cell appearing at all?

AT: That's right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well.

FT: The bug-like one?

AT: But Kondou-san said "He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.", so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.

Yuu Kondou (second editor)

Coming from a shoujo magazine to Jump, he became editor of "DragonBall" right off the bat. He was editor from the Saiya-jin arc to right before perfect-form Cell appeared. He is the model for Freeza.

YK: Was that how it was?

AT: And then you were really awful, Kondou-san. "This time, doesn't he look like a moron? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form." you said.

YK: But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)

AT: With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect-form, which was to Kondou-san's liking.

It happens in America too, I am afraid.
Editors have a lot of power int he entertainment industry that they should not have, the same goes for producers.
If Toriyama had refused they could have pulled his contract or something.

Check out tvtropes.org and look for "executive meddling" and you'll see tons of examples.

For instance, in the new GI Joe film, they changed Cobra Commander's hood because they feared that the hat that the VILLAIN was wearing resembled the KKK hood too much.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:23 am

Thank goodness they did that. Wouldn't want the KKK to be offended.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:03 am

Another well known example was during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Originally, Jean was supposed to be depowered, but big man at Marvel at the time said she had to die for killing billions of people. So that's what happened, before it turned out it wasn't really her.

MCDaveG · Post by **MCDaveG** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:25 am

Super Sonic wrote:Another well known example was during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Originally, Jean was supposed to be depowered, but big man at Marvel at the time said she had to die for killing billions of people. So that's what happened, before it turned out it wasn't really her.

At first, I thought that you are talking about Saint Seiya

Anyway, I think editors or not, I like that end in Cell saga, when Goku dies, then battles with old rivals in hell and against Paikuhan in filler (yeah Toriyama's manga isn't here) and then he returns in Boo saga powered as hell that even Vegeta bow down to him and tries to surpass him and at the end of series admitsthat Goku is the one...... I like Gohan and he has to be a Super Hero, but his destiny and Chi-Chi's motherhood totally kills his potential and he's weaker then in Cell saga.

I like even 3 stages Cell, but I think that all that saga with androids and cell is unreasonable long, in manga it's okay, but when you are watching anime and one fight lasts for 20 episodes and one episode is 20 minutes, you got sometimes really pissed off.....
That's the matter of Cell saga, I enjoyed that fights against Trunk and Vegeta and then, Cell games. I got that bored and fucked up with this saga...... Sorry for some vulgar elements.

What I think is troubling in manga is indeed timetravelling, It took me long to to manage how exactly was it with that trunks' time travelling and thanks to people like Dayspring or Saian Professor who are full of crazy or difficult and phylosoficaly and scientific based theories, killed my ideas about Trunks, because now I'm really lost in all this stuff and don't know what is truth now

Castor Troy · Post by **Castor Troy** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:24 pm

aarondirebear wrote:It happens in America too, I am afraid.
Editors have a lot of power int he entertainment industry that they should not have, the same goes for producers.
If Toriyama had refused they could have pulled his contract or something.

Check out tvtropes.org and look for "executive meddling" and you'll see tons of examples.

For instance, in the new GI Joe film, they changed Cobra Commander's hood because they feared that the hat that the VILLAIN was wearing resembled the KKK hood too much.

Working in the entertainment industry myself (I'm unemployed now, but will definitely find work there again), this is understatement. All the horror stories you've heard are definitely true to some extent.

Toriyama must have REALLY developed a huge titanium layer of thick skin to tell his editors he was finally ending the series after Buu.

a lot of people already respect Toriyama's decision to end the series after Buu, and if you actually work in the same type of business, you'll respect that decision even more. Toriyama probably ran to the beach and jumped for joy as soon as he ended the series.

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:20 pm

Super Sonic wrote:Another well known example was during the Dark Phoenix Saga. Originally, Jean was supposed to be depowered, but big man at Marvel at the time said she had to die for killing billions of people. So that's what happened, before it turned out it wasn't really her.

Ah yes, Marvel executive meddling.
"Spider-man can't have (unnaturally fast-aged) adult children, the kids won't relate to him then. Have Gwen fuck Osborn instead."

"Spider-man can't get a divorce, the kids won't relate to him then, but he shouldn't be married either, so have him make a deal with the devil to erase the marriage."

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:25 pm

Super Sonic wrote:Originally, Jean was supposed to be depowered, but big man at Marvel at the time said she had to die for killing billions of people.

Perfectly reasonable.

So that's what happened, before it turned out it wasn't really her.

The kind of crap that kept me away from comics for a long time.

Commander_Red · Post by **Commander_Red** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:30 pm

Because editors know what it takes to make a good story, be popular, and sell well.
If you were writing a novel and didn't listen to the editors idea on your story and you released it anyway, not only is it pig headed on your part if you were the one that hired them, but there's likely to be a flaw in your story like a plot hole, or maybe it just doesn't have enough twists to make it entertaining.

Wojak · Post by **Wojak** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:50 am

Rocketman wrote:
The kind of crap that kept me away from comics for a long time.

For me, it was the "Superman is dead!!!", "X is dead!!!" comics that came out because of that the series was going to die, and they needed to sell more copies.

Although people in Dragonball died, it couldn't have the same effect, 'cause people died all the time since early Dragonball, and got revived.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:59 am

Adamant wrote:"Spider-man can't get a divorce, the kids won't relate to him then, but he shouldn't be married either, so have him make a deal with the devil to erase the marriage."

Wow, seriously? That's...well, it's something, that's for sure.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:10 am

Herms wrote:
Adamant wrote:"Spider-man can't get a divorce, the kids won't relate to him then, but he shouldn't be married either, so have him make a deal with the devil to erase the marriage."
Wow, seriously? That's...well, it's something, that's for sure.

It sure is.

Spoilers:

The deal changed history entirely as a result, taking away a lot of the 'power upgrades' he'd accumulated and also undoing his public unmasking, where he had revealed his identity to the world. The moral is, if you make a mistake, you can always change history by making a deal with Satan (or someone close to him).

As for death in Marvel and DC, that means about as much as death in Dragon Ball. No one stays dead. Except Uncle Ben. Unless it's a parallel universe, then all bets are off.

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:20 am

At least DragonBall has, well, the dragonballs as an all-purpose method of reviving the dead, whereas DC and Marvel have to come up with a new excuse each time.

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm

Herms wrote:At least DragonBall has, well, the dragonballs as an all-purpose method of reviving the dead, whereas DC and Marvel have to come up with a new excuse each time.

There are so many loopholes in the Comic book world. Dont even get me started on my Jason Todd rant.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 3:13 pm

Herms wrote:
Adamant wrote:"Spider-man can't get a divorce, the kids won't relate to him then, but he shouldn't be married either, so have him make a deal with the devil to erase the marriage."
Wow, seriously? That's...well, it's something, that's for sure.

Best part? Spidey has worked with a chap whose entire backstory is "I made a deal with the devil and got fucked over"

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 4:22 pm

Rocketman wrote:The kind of crap that kept me away from comics for a long time.

Yeah, I'm not that experienced with comic books, but in general they seem kind of... terrible. The dialogue is stilted and clumsy, everything is excessively melodramatic, the storylines are convoluted to the point of absurdity, and the status quo is broken just as often as it's preserved (As shown at Superman Is A Dick - "Superman has gone evil?!" "Superman commits his first crime!" "The day Superman went bad!" "Superman killed Lois Lane?!"). Granted, this opinion is pretty much based entirely off Superman Is A Dick, but if that's representative of comic books as a whole...

Kunzait_83 · Post by **Kunzait_83** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:22 pm

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:25 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:
Rocketman wrote:The kind of crap that kept me away from comics for a long time.
Yeah, I'm not that experienced with comic books, but in general they seem kind of... terrible. The dialogue is stilted and clumsy, everything is excessively melodramatic, the storylines are convoluted to the point of absurdity, and the status quo is broken just as often as it's preserved (As shown at Superman Is A Dick - "Superman has gone evil?!" "Superman commits his first crime!" "The day Superman went bad!" "Superman killed Lois Lane?!"). Granted, this opinion is pretty much based entirely off Superman Is A Dick, but if that's representative of comic books as a whole...

That site just takes things out of context. You want some good ones, read The Judas Contract story from Teen Titans. Terra ain't so nice as he was on the cartoon.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:29 pm

Dr. Casey wrote:The dialogue is stilted and clumsy, everything is excessively melodramatic, the storylines are convoluted to the point of absurdity, and the status quo is broken just as often as it's preserved.

So basically like the Cell saga 24/7?

Eh, I don't like Superman. He isn't a good example of all comics really. There are non-superhero comics too, but I guess we're not talking about them.

Super Sonic · Post by **Super Sonic** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:50 pm

That also asks the question if he doesn't like comics at all, or just Western comics.

Kanzenshuu

Why did Toriyama bow down to his editors?

Re: Why did Toriyama bow down to his editors?

Re: Why did Toriyama bow down to his editors?