Why did Toriyama bow down to his editors?

Adamant · Post by **Adamant** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:31 pm

Super Sonic wrote:
Dr. Casey wrote:
Rocketman wrote:The kind of crap that kept me away from comics for a long time.
Yeah, I'm not that experienced with comic books, but in general they seem kind of... terrible. The dialogue is stilted and clumsy, everything is excessively melodramatic, the storylines are convoluted to the point of absurdity, and the status quo is broken just as often as it's preserved (As shown at Superman Is A Dick - "Superman has gone evil?!" "Superman commits his first crime!" "The day Superman went bad!" "Superman killed Lois Lane?!"). Granted, this opinion is pretty much based entirely off Superman Is A Dick, but if that's representative of comic books as a whole...
That site just takes things out of context.

No, not really, since most of what's posted there are just covers.
However, it's hardly representative of comics as a whole - mostly just 50s/60s DC as a whole.

Basically, back then, someone would come up with a cover showing some "holy shit"-type event, and then someone else would write a story based off that cover, which would explain how what happened makes perfect sense. Granted, a lot, if not all, these stories are pretty silly, but they're often pretty damn entertaining too. Pick up "Showcase presents Superman Family vol 2", it's 15$ or so and is absolutely packed with stories whose covers ended up on SiaD. It's also a very fun read.

Smooth Criminal · Post by **Smooth Criminal** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:07 am

Why don't we ever hear anything about Toriyama's final editor, from the Cell Games saga through the end of Buu?

Was he a complete pushover or something? I would think so, because that's when the story just completely fell apart. I think he allowed Toriyama to completely do whatever he wanted, thus resulting in half-assed work?

For example, in the chapter where Trunks and Goten are practicing the fusion dance and getting it wrong several times, Toriyama flat out copies-and-pastes panels. After the third time of doing this, he adds a little caption where Kuririn says something like "Hey, Toriyama, we won't fall for your tricks! It's obvious you've gotten lazy." Then the Tori-bot responds something like "Mr. Editor... You don't have to pay me for this page... Really..."

I dunno, I think there needs to be a fine line between strict editors and pushovers. The first one was probably the reason why DB catapulted to the success it did.

Dr. Casey · Post by **Dr. Casey** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:02 am

Thanks for the explanation, Kunzait. Consider all preconceived notions dropped. Interesting stuff, too, I'd love to discuss something this long and detailed if I knew anything about it. And I don't dislike Western comics, Sonic; the only comic book I've ever actually read myself is the Sonic comics from Archie, which I've always enjoyed.

Haha, that page with the Fusion Dance sounds great. XD The Tori-bot line in particular is cute.

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:06 am

Smooth Criminal wrote:Why don't we ever hear anything about Toriyama's final editor, from the Cell Games saga through the end of Buu?

Was he a complete pushover or something?

That's more or less what Toriyama said in Fill-in-the-Blank Theater Kai, p.188, according to the Japanese Wikipedia page for DragonBall. Incidentally, this final editor, Fuyuto Takeda, is supposedly the model for Majin Boo (specifically fat Boo). Toriyama commented on Takeda's weight in the little weekly chapter comment for the week after he first met him (this and other comments were reprinted in Daizenshuu 7), and Takeda talks similiar to fat Boo in the interview with Toriyama's 3 editors in Shenlong Times #1 and #2.

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:26 am

Herms wrote:
Smooth Criminal wrote:Why don't we ever hear anything about Toriyama's final editor, from the Cell Games saga through the end of Buu?

Was he a complete pushover or something?
That's more or less what Toriyama said in Fill-in-the-Blank Theater Kai, p.188, according to the Japanese Wikipedia page for DragonBall. Incidentally, this final editor, Fuyuto Takeda, is supposedly the model for Majin Boo (specifically fat Boo). Toriyama commented on Takeda's weight in the little weekly chapter comment for the week after he first met him (this and other comments were reprinted in Daizenshuu 7), and Takeda talks similiar to fat Boo in the interview with Toriyama's 3 editors in Shenlong Times #1 and #2.

Hmmm, Akira was getting sick of the series, and a pure evil villain that just happens to look like his editor shows up. Coincidence?

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:30 am

Well, it's nothing new. Freeza is supposed to be based off of Yuu Kondou, Toriyama's second editor, while Toriyama based two villians off of his first editor, Kazuhiko Torishima: Dr. Mashirito from Dr. Slump, and Piccolo Daimao in DB.

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:37 am

Herms wrote:Well, it's nothing new. Freeza is supposed to be based off of Yuu Kondou, Toriyama's second editor, while Toriyama based two villians off of his first editor, Kazuhiko Torishima: Dr. Mashirito from Dr. Slump, and Piccolo Daimao in DB.

Wow, that's pretty interesting. I knew about Mashirito being based on an editor, but not about the other two.

Metalwario64 · Post by **Metalwario64** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:38 am

Speaking of Superman Is A Dick...

Amigo Ten · Post by **Amigo Ten** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:30 am

Smooth Criminal wrote:I dunno, I think there needs to be a fine line between strict editors and pushovers. The first one was probably the reason why DB catapulted to the success it did.

Toriyama's enthusiasm for it probably helped too. He was writing with the specific aim of making the series more popular. That's why he said he came up with the tournaments, because that structure of story was usually really popular.

Personally, the editors involvement or lack of it doesn't seem problematic to me. Comparing the Cell saga to the Buu saga, it's the tone that differs most, rather than the apparent effort put into it. I don't know if the editor in the Cell saga was pushing for very serious tone it took on, but if he was the the Buu saga editor being a pushover would explain the change.

Not that I'm complaining about it, because I like the Buu saga more than the Cell saga overall.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:55 pm

So this guy actually looks like Majin Buu? We gotta see some pictures of that!

Also, for him to make villains based off of some of his editors he must have really disliked them. The last one, however, he may have liked since Majin Buu (the chubby one) turns out to be a nice guy.

Post by **Herms** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:01 am

GS7X7 wrote:So this guy actually looks like Majin Buu? We gotta see some pictures of that!

Here's one, from Shenlong Times #2. Takeda is the one on the far right, then left of him is Toriyama, then Kondou, and then Torishima is on the very left.

GS7X7 · Post by **GS7X7** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:46 pm

Hmm.... are there any more pictures of them on Japanese language DBZ sites?

SparkyPantsMcGee · Post by **SparkyPantsMcGee** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 6:39 pm

Herms wrote:Well, it's nothing new. Freeza is supposed to be based off of Yuu Kondou, Toriyama's second editor, while Toriyama based two villians off of his first editor, Kazuhiko Torishima: Dr. Mashirito from Dr. Slump, and Piccolo Daimao in DB.

I'm not challenging this but I would like a link about this, because that sounds really interesting.

Post by **Herms** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:35 pm

Sure: here and here.

jda95 · Post by **jda95** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:58 pm

Herms wrote:Sure: here and here.

Oh Herms, you can't cite youself!

Post by **Herms** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:03 am

jda95 wrote:Oh Herms, you can't cite youself! :lol:

Of course I can. I said I can after all, so that means I must be able to.

*goes back to chewing on tail*

Saiyan-Professor · Post by **Saiyan-Professor** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:27 pm

Herms wrote:...*goes back to chewing on tail*

I do not get it…explain please?

Post by **Herms** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:01 am

O, alright.

Bussani · Post by **Bussani** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:26 am

By the way, I have to ask. Who's in charge of the editors, exactly? Do they get assigned by the people publishing the manga, or are they hired separately?

As far as I know, in regular literature the editor works for the publishing company most of the time, right? I think..

Raki · Post by **Raki** » Tue Aug 04, 2009 1:31 am

Bussani wrote:By the way, I have to ask. Who's in charge of the editors, exactly? Do they get assigned by the people publishing the manga, or are they hired separately?

As far as I know, in regular literature the editor works for the publishing company most of the time, right? I think..

Probably the Editor in Chief.