What's with the name censorship?

[VegettoEX]

You agreed to it when you registered. If you don't like it, don't post here.

Or discuss it and have enough people bring valid reasons to the table why it's wrong and how the government should be overthrown or somehow usurped so THE PEOPLE regain control and rebuild society the way they see fit.

Either or is fine.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Say that you visit a friend who asks that your shoes come off when you walk into his house. It's not something that you do at home, yourself. It's not something that most of your friends require. And it probably feels a little strange. But would you really stand there in the doorway, arguing the point, or would you just do it out of respect for your friend?

This is no different, only easier. The work is already done for you. All you have to do is accept it for what it is-- a preference of the homeowner, who allows you into his home with the understanding that you'll be conscientious.

Despite that, I fail to see why any of this is an issue to begin with. Anyone who really wants to express preference can easily circumvent the filter.


~Da Lemmy

[desirecampbell]

1) "Right" in this instance is technically subjective. Right by what standards? Right by whose standards? There are quite a few standards out there, official ones, ones that are technically just as correct as others on various levels.

True, there are some names that have multiple romanizations/translations - but those aren't filtered. The only filters in place are those that are objectively wrong. "Frieza"? Wrong. "Tien"? Wrong. "Fasha"? Wrong.

2) Alright, let's assume things were reversed and the board filtered Tenshinhan into Ti­en or Paikuhan into Pikk­on or so forth, forcing those who were used to those names, preferred those names, into the dub ones instead unless they took the extra time to bypass the filter. All the same reasons could technically be used with only slight alteration. "It's not Paikuhan, it's Pi­kkon. This is an English board not a Japanese board."

That's stupid - and illustrates the point of the filter - Funimation's dub is neither the first nor the only English version of the series. Besides Viz doing the manga there are several companies doing English anime dubs, hell, Toei gave us English subs on the new special. Funi-centric thinking causes a lot of confusion because of all the changes made.

The point is there's no point. Why should anyone have to go to extra work to allow a technically correct spelling, one that's well known in the native language of the board and clearly close enough to the original spelling as to be obvious, in the first place?

Because the filter only grabs technically incorrect spellings. And to even suggest that Funi's name changes are valid because they're "official" is ridiculous, "Big Green" is not correct, "Hercule" is not correct.

The point is: not everyone here is familiar with Funimation's dub. Funimation's dub is not "the series". This is a board dedicated to the "Dragon Ball" franchise, period. Not "Funimation's English broadcast dub circa 1998", not "UK Big Green dub", not "Filipino English dub".

It breaks down to this:
1. To facilitate international conversation (and for basic logic's sake) unless otherwise specified, all conversations assume original Japanese production.
2. If the filtered-name is "so close to the original no one would be confused" than it's such a small change you won't be confused either.
3. If you need to use the filtered-name for a discussion (like for a quote from the dub, or a topic about the name changes in particular) then you can do that. Getting around the filter is simple and easy - just break up the name somehow, like F.rieza or F.rieza or a dozen other ways to trick the filter.
4. If you really prefer using the filtered-name, again, you can you just have to circumvent the filter (as above). If that's "too much effort" than you really don't care that much do you?


I still think a sticky thread in Site-General with all the filters would be helpful though.

[B]

1) "Right" in this instance is technically subjective. Right by what standards? Right by whose standards? There are quite a few standards out there, official ones, ones that are technically just as correct as others on various levels.

2) Alright, let's assume things were reversed and the board filtered Tenshinhan into Ti­en or Paikuhan into Pikk­on or so forth, forcing those who were used to those names, preferred those names, into the dub ones instead unless they took the extra time to bypass the filter. All the same reasons could technically be used with only slight alteration. "It's not Paikuhan, it's Pi­kkon. This is an English board not a Japanese board." The point is there's no point. Why should anyone have to go to extra work to allow a technically correct spelling, one that's well known in the native language of the board and clearly close enough to the original spelling as to be obvious, in the first place?

1) Right by the standards of what is an accurate translation of the original creation. To be completely fair, Paikuhan's name is パイクーハン. "Pikkon..." is close, but no cigar.
2) Now, you see, I had this exact same conversation with a hot-headed dubbie two days ago, who went off on a tangent on me because I used "Freeza," and he told me to "stop trying to be Japanese! If you are talking about the English manga, fine, but if you mean the anime, for GOD'S SAKE, use the dub name! Learn what freakin' country you're in." The problem with this argument is the opposing side makes this ridiculous divide between whatever dub they're rootin' for and the Japanese version, when in reality, it's irrelevant. If some guy just started posting Pikkon everwhere, and the name became popular with absolutely no dub attachment, it would still be wrong.

And what EX said. I can't imagine there's any other Dragon Ball-centric message board on the planet that won't let you run around with your Pikkons and your Tiens. I would bet money they ENCOURAGE it.

[Big Momma]

Say that you visit a friend who asks that your shoes come off when you walk into his house. It's not something that you do at home, yourself. It's not something that most of your friends require. And it probably feels a little strange. But would you really stand there in the doorway, arguing the point, or would you just do it out of respect for your friend?

This is no different, only easier. The work is already done for you. All you have to do is accept it for what it is-- a preference of the homeowner, who allows you into his home with the understanding that you'll be conscientious.

Despite that, I fail to see why any of this is an issue to begin with. Anyone who really wants to express preference can easily circumvent the filter.


~Da Lemmy

Even though I have no problem wearing shoes in my own home and we never have people take them off...I feel weird wearing my shoes in someone else's house.

It's the same with this, too. When I'm on other forums where people don't really care, I tend to use whatever. But when I'm here, I feel compelled to just go ahead and use spellings that are "enforced".

[Xyex]

You agreed to it when you registered.

Technically speak, I didn't. I joined before the filter. :p

Or discuss it and have enough people bring valid reasons to the table why it's wrong and how the government should be overthrown or somehow usurped so THE PEOPLE regain control and rebuild society the way they see fit.

Either or is fine

Viva le' resistance!

"Frie­­za"? Wrong. "T­­ien"? Wrong. "Fas­­ha"? Wrong.

"Friez­­a"? Subjective. "T­­ien"? Subective. "Fa­­sha"? Subjective (but annoying).

That's stupid - and illustrates the point of the filter - Funimation's dub is neither the first nor the only English version of the series. Besides Viz doing the manga there are several companies doing English anime dubs, hell, Toei gave us English subs on the new special. Funi-centric thinking causes a lot of confusion because of all the changes made.

The only reason that looked "FUNi-centric" is because the names I showed were FUNi derived. A similar argument could be put forth for "Vege­­rot" (though I'm not sure anyone would care to).

And to even suggest that Funi's name changes are valid because they're "official" is ridiculous, "Big Green" is not correct, "H­­ercule" is not correct.

If we were talking in terms of the Japanese version of the series you'd be absolutely right. But when talking about the dub, or the show in general, dub terms are, techincally speaking, correct.

1. To facilitate international conversation (and for basic logic's sake) unless otherwise specified, all conversations assume original Japanese production.
2. If the filtered-name is "so close to the original no one would be confused" than it's such a small change you won't be confused either.
3. If you need to use the filtered-name for a discussion (like for a quote from the dub, or a topic about the name changes in particular) then you can do that. Getting around the filter is simple and easy - just break up the name somehow, like F.rieza or F.rieza or a dozen other ways to trick the filter.
4. If you really prefer using the filtered-name, again, you can you just have to circumvent the filter (as above). If that's "too much effort" than you really don't care that much do you?

1) How about taking on "Original Japanese manga" instead, if you want to get picky just to avoid stuff you don't like? :p
2) Which makes it a moot point to go to the effort to have the filter in place in the first place~
3) If you want to use the original it's easy to do, just type it out.
4) Again, why should someone have to do extra work to use a technically correct name that's clearly obvious as to who it refers to?

Right by the standards of what is an accurate translation of the original creation.

Which would be all fine and dandy on a board dedicated soley to the original version. As Rocketman pointed out himself, this board is dedicated to the series as a whole which, no matter how much people don't like them, includes the various dubs and manga translations.

The problem with this argument is the opposing side makes this ridiculous divide between whatever dub they're rootin' for and the Japanese version, when in reality, it's irrelevant.

Both sides make such distinction, actually. The Japanese side just does with "Yeah, but that's wrong."

And, like you said, it's irrelevant. Which extends as well to the filter in general.

It's the same with this, too. When I'm on other forums where people don't really care, I tend to use whatever. But when I'm here, I feel compelled to just go ahead and use spellings that are "enforced".

Me, I just use whatever I feel like most of the time. I'm just typically too lazy to bother editing the names to by-pass the filter unless I need the dub name for the statement to make sense.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm merely playing devil's advocate here. I can see the debate from both sides and, for the most part, I don't particularly care about either. As I've said elsewhere, I mish mash stuff based entirely on personal prefrence. What I'm used to, what's shorter, what sounds/looks better to me, etc. One point doesn't always mesh with the other (Saiya-jin is longer than Saiyan for instance) but those are the general basis I pick my terms on.

[desirecampbell]

Xyex, you're trying to break the argument down to "I think this is right" and "I think this is right", but I am actually right and your argument makes no sense. And beyond repeating myself, I'm having a hard time explaining it to you.

Devil's advocate only works if your points are valid, they aren't. Any foreign dub/translation/adaptation that changes any aspect of the original production that it was based on cannot in any conceivable way be considered "correct". It isn't subjective, it's wrong. Changing Goku's name to 'Zero' is wrong.

If we were talking in terms of the Japanese version of the series you'd be absolutely right

What? That's like saying, "if we're talking about the Shakespearian version of Hamlet". And it's the main problem with your argument. The series is Japanese. If there's to be a discussion about something a specific adaptation changed, then that has to be specified or no one knows what's going on.

Saying "Bardock's team-member was named Fasha" makes as much sense as "the Montagues and the Capulets were rival businesses." These only make sense if you're talking about a specific adaptation. "Bardock's team-member was named Fasha in the Funimation dub." "The Montagues and the Capulets were rival businesses in the 1996 modernized film starring Leonardo DiCaprio."


If that adaptation was the only aspect of the work you'd ever known, then I can see why you'd think you were correct - but you're not.




Again, and I think this bears repeating, the only reason anyone would oppose the filter is ignorance or laziness. "I don't care if most people are confused as to what I'm talking about" or "I'm too lazy to make sure everyone knows what I'm talking about".

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Devil's advocate only works if your points are valid, they aren't. Any foreign dub/translation/adaptation that changes any aspect of the original production that it was based on cannot in any conceivable way be considered "correct". It isn't subjective, it's wrong. Changing Goku's name to 'Zero' is wrong.

I agree that changing the name completely is wrong, like Goku to Zero and Mr. Satan to Hercule. But changing the spelling slightly isn't, like Paikuhan to Pikkon and Freeza to Frieza. (One letter for God's sake!)

[VegettoEX]

Devil's advocate only works if your points are valid, they aren't. Any foreign dub/translation/adaptation that changes any aspect of the original production that it was based on cannot in any conceivable way be considered "correct". It isn't subjective, it's wrong. Changing Goku's name to 'Zero' is wrong.

I agree that changing the name completely is wrong, like Goku to Zero and Mr. Satan to Hercule. But changing the spelling slightly isn't, like Paikuhan to Pikkon and Freeza to Frieza. (One letter for God's sake!)

But... FUNimation's spelling of Paikuhan's name is a complete change. I'd argue that the only thing that carries over is the first syllable ("Pai" to "Pi"), and maybe the first part of the "k" sound -- you lose the "ku" in the middle entirely, and the "han" ending sound gets changed to a short "on" sound, with the only similarity being that they end in a syllabic "n".

Your response is basically a point-for-point showcase of how everyone makes certain compromises to their spellings and adjustments. Everyone has their own set of rules. Everyone has their own set of deviations from the rules. Everyone has their own set of reasonings for their rules. All we're doing is bringing a little consistency to stuff that isn't even a part of the series that we're based around as a website (read: FUNimation's censored English dub).

I once again say that these rules are not limited to FUNimation's censored dub. It is not the center of the universe. In this case, the original Japanese version is ^_~.

[B]

Gokuh is word filtered, or at least was at one point, right?

[VegettoEX]

Gokuh is word filtered, or at least was at one point, right?

Nah. It's a valid romanization and used in the manga. I'm wavering on the unfiltering of "GOKOU" even though it doesn't make much sense. Thoughts?

[B]

Isn't "Gokou" a change in the pronunciation?

[VegettoEX]

Isn't "Gokou" a change in the pronunciation?

It is, yeah... but it's always and widely been used in Japanese merchandise (books, video games, figures, etc.).

So I'm clearly wavering on whether or not I want to go with "accuracy" or "it's accepted in Japan and that's the version of the series we're focusing on here".

[Amigo Ten]

Gokuh was used in the manga?

[Amigo Ten]

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the Paikuhan spelling was used in the US/EU versions of the Shin Budokai games. There is no "Official English Language" versions of names and such. There's Funi's names, Viz's names, various others, etc.

[JulieYBM]

I think the filter should be kept of 'ou'. While it is a spelling found on Japanese products, it is also a factually misromanization (unless three years of high school Japanese has led my astray) of the name and anyone who doesn't know that (even in this day in age) should have the right to see their spelling changed, ask why, and then learn the magical ways of proper spelling.

[Godo]

The filter should exist to remove any confusions.
Names like "Gokuh" and "Gokou" can be understood by anyone.
"Tien" in the other hand, can't be understood by anyone. I can say that I was confused when I first heard it because of not growing up with the Funimation dub.
"Fasha" was also a confusion for me, Hercule included.
It's good to have a filter, because of that this forum aims to be friendly to non-US members too, so when it comes to that, I support it.
But narrowing it down to differences in spelling the names is not nessecary, since I think that the regular member has enough brain cells to understand the name anyways.

[laserkid]

Where can I get onboard for the communist revolution against Daizex?

On the one hand, I can see the argument for the people who don't want it censored - it DOES seem silly/petty to write out a filter for incorrect names - it's not as though if someone did something eggregious this community wouldn't correct them. Besides which, the vast majority of us DO in fact use the Japanese names (even if I've only semi recently converted to Kuririn instead of Kuririn). Name change censorship or not, anyone who actually reads these boards will come to learn the real terms, because the bulk of the mainstays here do. If someone ISN'T actually paying attention to read them, though, the censorship won't suddenly make them do so either.

Name censoring it can also be annoying to those of us who DO use the actual names usually when we're trying to help differnciate or further explain something to someone (ie: trying to explain the H word is actually Mr. Satan gets to be reeeeallly fun when we can't say the actual name, and hope that they catch on to what the "H Word" is). Now it's come up in here there are ways to defeat the filter, but that's conteruntuitive (and I didn't know you could do so until this thread), and also counter to the idea of trying to force out nonstandard spellings. Not that I'm advocating for this, but if it's really that important to censor out nonstandard names, it should be a violation to try to defeat the filter.

Now I did start this with "on the one hand" - and here's the big other hand. Ultimatly, as has been stated previously, this is Mike's house and if he wants it this way, then who are we to try to make him change it? I have my own forum, so I do understand that having other people trying to tell you how to run your forum is at best annoying and at worst forum defeating. So while I may not personally think this is the best of ideas, it's also not my place to try to force it to change.

[Xyex]

*snip*

As I don't feel like getting into a long, drawn out, and pointless debate with you I'll just sum up my response in one word, and leave it at that: No.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the Paikuhan spelling was used in the US/EU versions of the Shin Budokai games. There is no "Official English Language" versions of names and such. There's Funi's names, Viz's names, various others, etc.

Technically speaking, any name by an official licensee on any official material released for the English market is an 'official English name'. This just means we've got a lot of them, some of which are the same as the Japanese versions, some of which aren't.

"Tien" in the other hand, can't be understood by anyone.

I think you meant everyone there.

But really, it's a fairly simple deduction to make as to who Ti­en is.

Where can I get onboard for the communist revolution against Daizex?

There's a sign-up sheet over by the doughnuts.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

But... FUNimation's spelling of Paikuhan's name is a complete change. I'd argue that the only thing that carries over is the first syllable ("Pai" to "Pi"), and maybe the first part of the "k" sound -- you lose the "ku" in the middle entirely, and the "han" ending sound gets changed to a short "on" sound, with the only similarity being that they end in a syllabic "n".

Okay, I will agree that Pikkon is a big change from Paikuhan. But Frieza? Seriously? Only one letter got changed. There's not going to be any big confusion about who your referring to when you write it out Frieza. The pronounciation is really similar to Freeza. To English speakers (which is everyone on this forum) the "ie" sound gets pronounced as "ee" like in "niece" and "piece".