"FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid" - Wait, what?

[JulieYBM]

FUNimation told us we didn't know GT. Six years later, they admitted we did.


Of course, we can chalk it up to Barry Watson having left and FUNimation not wanting to spend the money on a proper dub of the series', films, and specials...

[Big Momma]

That's the whole point of what I'm trying to say. How does "making it more like an American cartoon" suddenly become, "Treating its audience like idiots." Again, this is 1996 we're talking about, not 2010 where every little kid tries to watch Anime and use Japanese honorifics to feel cool.

The act of making it seem like an American cartoon is itself insulting to the intelligence of the viewer, saying that American children can't handle foreign entertainment unless it relates to what they already are used to. It's calling us uncultured.

It's not whether the American kids could have handled it, it's whether they would have liked it better. Thinking of all the friends I had back in grade school when this dub first started coming out, and when it was in its heyday, the "Nightmare to you" kind of stuff would have been much more popular, anyway.

Making it like an American Cartoon doesn't insult the audience. They were making it more like American Cartoons at the time, AKA, what was popular here in the states. From a business standpoint, that's the smart thing to do. Make it more like something they know sells well, compared to trying to stay closer to the original and be different...something that wasn't guaranteed to sell. I may not be a dubbie, and as much as you and I may disagree with it, they did what they thought would sell better. And as far as I can see, they succeeded.

[fps_anth]

Read my signature

[jjgp1112]

That's as a gross of an exaggeration as I'm ever likely to see. Some of the hate that FUNimation gets as a company is just comical to me.

[Big Momma]

I want a source on that sig quote.

[JulieYBM]

I want a source on that sig quote.

It's a (sarcastic?) post Mike made in a thread a few weeks back, actually.

[TripleRach]

Just look at the marketing for the season sets. It was full of deception and lies, and when they were called out on it, their response was something along the lines of, "It's selling like hotcakes! ... There's a new 9-year-old born every day!" They were practically calling you a moron for buying it.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Okay to start off, let's backtrack. FUNimation aquired the rights to the series in 1996. Anime that had aired on T.V prior to 1996 were: Robotech, Voltron and Battle of the Planets. As most of you may know, these anime were heavily edited and contained changed dialogue.


FUNimation wanted DBZ to be a big hit like the Anime I mentioned before. Leaving the dialogue and music the same might not have appealed to the American audience that made those Anime so successful. American kids were FUNimation's demographic, not Japanese kids. Head-Cha-La and Kikuchi's score might have appealed to Japanese kids, but with American kids, it's an entirely different ball game. If FUNimation wanted to make money they had to play that ball game and play it well.

Just look at the marketing for the season sets. It was full of deception and lies, and when they were called out on it, their response was something along the lines of, "It's selling like hotcakes! ... There's a new 9-year-old born every day!" They were practically calling you a moron for buying it.

Really? Did someone from FUNimation actually say that?

[desirecampbell]

Again, jjgp1112's question wasn't 'was Funi justified in dumbing down Dragon Ball?' the question as 'did they treat us like idiots?'. The answer is 'yes, obviously'. To suggest that Funi didn't dumb down the show is ridiculous. Simple, repetitive music, added dialogue, dialogue changes (both to state what was happening in the scene and to change the tone or meaning of scenes), heavy editing of the first two 'seasons' (both for violence and for not-violence), name changes, Lunch removed altogether - the list goes on, and every change makes the show more simplistic, easier to digest. These changes weren't made because Funi thought the audience was mature and needed something smarter to watch.

'Were they justified' in doing so? Would Dragon Ball have become as popular as it is if they hadn't done this? That's an interesting conversation: maybe the had to, maybe it would have been better if they had not.

Really? Did someone from FUNimation actually say that?

Yes. During an interview about the season sets. Oh, and they said it was the way it was meant to be seen, cropped the image and said they gave us more, told us they remastered it and gave us shit, said that they removed the grain but showed us doctored images. If you want a definitive answer to whether Funi thought we were idiots, look no further than the Season Sets.

[Craddle]

Yes. During an interview about the season sets. Oh, and they said it was the way it was meant to be seen, cropped the image and said they gave us more, told us they remastered it and gave us shit, said that they removed the grain but showed us doctored images. If you want a definitive answer to whether Funi thought we were idiots, look no further than the Season Sets.

This always pissed me off about FUNimation. I bought the first season set of DBZ and was thoroughly disgusted. I knew when buying it I was going to be unhappy since it was 16:9 but, they told us we would have "more" than the previous 4:3 releases. It was without a doubt false advertisement. I didn't mind buying each FS individual disc when it was released for $24.95 from Suncoast. At least I knew what I was getting. This season set debacle was flat out embarrassing. Thankfully FUNi has since made up for this failure in the season set category alone. After hearing the outcry from fans over the DBZ season sets, FUNi released GT in a more appropriate manner. (From what I've heard. I own the singles and only seen comparisons) Then continued to make up for it by releasing Dragon Ball on season sets similar to the GT sets. (Again, from what I've heard. I own the 2-disc sets and only seen comparisons.) Then finally FUNi releases the ultimate compensation (lack of a better word) for failed DBZ season sets by giving us Dragon Boxes. Which may very well be a literal smack in the face to all those who were stupid enough to believe in FUNi and bought the DBZ season sets. Now to have a far superior product be released. I still feel bad for these people and blame FUNi for false advertisement.

[Sebastian (SB)]

I think the fact that FUNimation said those comments on the Season Set just reaffirmed my dislike for them with the Dragon Ball community as a whole. From a personal experience at NY Comic Con, when I went to the FUNimation panel, the panelist sort of had this persuading notion that the DBZ dub wasn't any different from the original Japanese version, often making light jokes about it, and how he was heckled by fans about it in the past. But the thing is, no one within the audience had brought any conversation regarding the differences of their respective dub. I don't blame the guy, though. I can only imagine the pressure he gets in conventions. I think it was the same guy that made the comment on "There's a 9 year old born everyday" regarding the Season Sets. In any case, when I brought a question about the possible acquisition of Kai after the panel was over, he kinda had a poor piss attitude about it. Maybe I was just interpreting it wrong, but he definitely wasn't nice about it. I won't be asking any DB related questions in a FUNimation panel for a long while again

Back to the original question, Does FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid? Based on the Season Sets marketing, questionable dialogue changes, and personal con experience, yes. To an extent, yes. In an already divided community, it doesn't help what they've done in the past.....But I'm sure glad those Dragon Boxes are coming out. Did what they do help popularize the series? I do think making it more like an American cartoon certainly helped, but I also feel it wasn't necessary being that DragonBall Z was already ahead of most cartoons at the time with its unique visuals and content material as some have said earlier (Heck, I remember when some of my past friends would love watching DBZ on International Channel and Telemundo with the original music and dialogue). That alone had an edge and certainly would've sold the series instead of the "creative/artistic" decisions Barry Watson and FUNimation have made.

[GizmoKSX]

When Pioneer started releasing the movies, I remember preferring the original soundtrack to the Shuki Levy stuff that was airing at the time, so even as part of the young target audience, I found the changes questionable. It's worth pondering whether the "reversioning" was necessary when Dragon Ball Z had made its way onto its own dedicated wall in Suncoast video stores. If it was leading the pack, was it really necessary to follow the trends of what American kids supposedly wanted? Could it have potentially raised the bar American shows competing for attention if it had stayed more faithful to its original presentation?

And who decided that any audience would have preferred Freeza to sound like an old woman and Kaio to sound like...however you'd describe Schemmel's performance?

[Furyus]

Maybe I don't know my history well enough but who's to say Cartoon Network didn't ask Funimation to do some of this?

Funimation: "Hey we've got the rights to this awesome show & want you to air it!"
Cartoon Network: "Wow yeah this looks great but can you change this, this and this?"
Funimation: "Absolutely! We really want to get this show on the air"

I absolutely believe that more plausible than any other scenario.
Cartoon Network being 100% focused on the demographics they had been serving up to that point.
I'm sure they had all kinds of statistics from analysts/consultants to back up the decision.

It was business plain and simple. A company will make any decision based on the bottom line.
I would venture a guess that many companies have had to make decisions similar to this in order to have a product see the light of day. It's much like developers & publishers of video games; developer might not be 100% complete with the game but the publisher will send it out he door anyway- full of bugs, broken levels, etc.

[JulieYBM]

They certainly didn't ask Bandai to have Heero poppin' pop culture references on New Mobile Report Gundam Wing, which aired during the same era (mix those in with the terrible dub cast and you've got yourself a real headache)...so I really doubt it was CN's idea.


I'd say the entire Orange Brick debacle existing in the first place is proof enough FUNimation thought its customers were pretty dim.

[Super Sonic]

They certainly didn't ask Bandai to have Heero poppin' pop culture references on New Mobile Report Gundam Wing, which aired during the same era (mix those in with the terrible dub cast and you've got yourself a real headache)...so I really doubt it was CN's idea..

Gundam Wing had an excellent cast. Or were you wanting Petrea Burchard as Quatre? But yeah, thing had changed from when Gundam Wing started than they did when DBZ started.

[JulieYBM]

They certainly didn't ask Bandai to have Heero poppin' pop culture references on New Mobile Report Gundam Wing, which aired during the same era (mix those in with the terrible dub cast and you've got yourself a real headache)...so I really doubt it was CN's idea..

Gundam Wing had an excellent cast. Or were you wanting Petrea Burchard as Quatre? But yeah, thing had changed from when Gundam Wing started than they did when DBZ started.

My biggest problem is the supporting and background characters, actually. Literally the same five or six people would voice every character in each episode and it became impossible to tell who was who.

The actually acting was spotty too, but from I can remember. I sat down to watch an episode of First Gundam dubbed recently and was instantly turned off by how terriblely stiff everyone was.

Gah, and while I'm already off topic: Brad Swaile doesn't need to voice five Gundam pilots, Bandai. Same for Steve Staley's three. >___>


Now, back to your regularly scheduled Dragon Ball discussion!

Bun nunnun nunnun-un!!

[RoarkVegeta]

The way it was meant to be seen? Cropped and terrible looking? -1.

The voices you know and love? N-no..?

[laserkid]

Well, hindsight is 20/20. There wasn't any real evidence in 1996 that American kid would enjoy a show in the vein as DBZ, and Funi's first priority is to make money above all else. So I don't see how they're treating its audience like crap. They were just being complacent and didn't have the insight that every company has now. They didn't think were stupid - they just didn't think that the style of DBZ appealed to their tastes. Of course, when Funimation completely took over in Season 3 and stopped editing the fuck out everything, they eventually started acknowledging the show's origin and original style more and more since they already hooked their audience on the show and the anime industry was evolving.

Just put yourself in their shoes at the time. When you're a small as shit company and the one show that you're banking the whole company on is completely unlike anything people have experienced before, you're more likely to just cling to the status-quo. Big companies can afford to risk introducing something different because if it doesn't work, they can just brush it off. But for a company as small as FUNi was back in the day, they weren't risking shit.

I have a one word response to all that, no, make it a one image response to disprove the idea of cartoons needing to be stupid for children to like them.



While Robotech did indeed splice three Japanese shows into one and removing some context for things it did NOT treat children like idiots, and it was extremely sucessful. Not enough for you? Okay, how about something made in America that did extremely well with dramatic themes and storytelling without dumbing down things. Better yet, let's make it a Disney Cartoon.



Okay... so you're saying that these two, and many other examples that I'm sure are out there proving you don't have to make a show stupid for it to be popular and sucessful with children just weren't mainstream enough for FUNimation to possibly notice, because clearly, the idea of treating kids as grown up enough to handle serious storytelling just had not have been tried?

I could point you to more, but ultimatly your defense of FUNimation on the value of "never been tried before" is either ignorance on your part, willed ignorance on your part, or criminally stupid ignorance on FUNimation's part to not even study their contemporaries and how they sold.

If indeed, FUNimation could NOT afford to fail, you'd think they'd do their research a bit further, don't you think?

[linkdude20002001]

When Pioneer started releasing the movies, I remember preferring the original soundtrack to the Shuki Levy stuff that was airing at the time, so even as part of the young target audience, I found the changes questionable. It's worth pondering whether the "reversioning" was necessary when Dragon Ball Z had made its way onto its own dedicated wall in Suncoast video stores. If it was leading the pack, was it really necessary to follow the trends of what American kids supposedly wanted? Could it have potentially raised the bar American shows competing for attention if it had stayed more faithful to its original presentation?

And who decided that any audience would have preferred Freeza to sound like an old woman and Kaio to sound like...however you'd describe Schemmel's performance?

Same here. I was like eight or something when Cartoon Network aired the first three movies. Movies one and two were dubbed by Geneon and contained the original Japanese music. Movie three was dubbed by FUNimation and used Saban's music. I liked the first two, but the third movie (which aried second I believe), was awful in comparison. But once I got Geneon's Uncut Movie Trilogy box set, I liked it just as much as the first two. Even though the TV series used the boring music, I still watched it 'cause it was DBZ. So there you go. FUNi could've kept the original music and people still would've liked it.

[jjgp1112]

When it comes to the whole, "9 year old born every day" quote, it seems like one of those things that sounds a lot worse when taken out of context. I read the little report where he said it and it seemed like he was trying to say that the sales of Season 1 indicate that there are still a lot of kids who love DBZ. I don't see how you can get, "there are dumbasses who buy this every day" from that.