The Dragon Ball Wiki

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Puto]

Though, to be honest, the reason most of those fans hate the use of the word Navy is because 4Kids used it, to the point of painting out the word MARINE and writing NAVY in its place. And apparently if 4Kids does something, then it must be wrong.

I don't see them advocating the use of "Ruffy" over "Luffy" because 4kids used the L-word.
Nah, it's pure "the fansubbers said x so it's x" bs. I'm sure the same people hate how the DVD subs translate "nakama" too.

(blah, that previous post of mine was a mess. I should be more sober when I write these things)

4Kids didn't go and paint "RUFFY" into "LUFFY" on wanted cards or anything like it. The reason fans focused on 4Kids using "Navy" to begin with was because they edited the word "MARINE" on the Navy equipment to read "NAVY" instead. Add to that the fact that fansubbers and scanlators had been using "Marines" for ages, and people started to equate "Navy" with "4Kids Dub".

I'm frankly surprised as is that most people like Yibis' fansubs nowadays, given how they're going completely against the fan-grain as is and ditching all the ridiculous fan-terms and un-translations like "Marines", "nakama", "Haki", etc.

[SHINOBI-03]

I'm frankly surprised as is that most people like Yibis' fansubs nowadays, given how they're going completely against the fan-grain as is and ditching all the ridiculous fan-terms and un-translations like "Marines", "nakama", "Haki", etc.

For me personally, I'm done with them. I only watch the FUNi subs.

"It's what I grew up with."

That's it. Forget facts, forget solid, cited information from the no less than the original creative team behind the anime, forget what the original freaking version of the story that's been around within the global popular consciousness for more than a decade before this other version ever existed (I mean seriously, to cite Goku's surname Son as an "alternate name" when that name has been in popular print all around the fucking world for well over a decade plus before those guys from Texas had ever entered the picture is just the height of arrogance), hell forget what the actual fucking creator of the entire damn series himself was ever directly quoted as saying.

The European dubs used "Son". The Latin dubs used "Son". Even the dreaded Arabic dub used "Son". And they tell us his name is just "Goku" because that's what they grew up with and won't acknowledge anything else?!!

[Mountain]

The European dubs used "Son". The Latin dubs used "Son". Even the dreaded Arabic dub used "Son". And they tell us his name is just "Goku" because that's what they grew up with and won't acknowledge anything else?!!

This is one of the main problems I have with FUNi's dub. There's no reason why Son should be listed as an alternate name in the Wiki.

[Innagadadavida]

Aha! Kunzait_83, you back man. Don't ever leave us again.

Good post. Made me lol and rofl and the likes.

[DemonRin]

4Kids didn't go and paint "RUFFY" into "LUFFY" on wanted cards or anything like it. The reason fans focused on 4Kids using "Navy" to begin with was because they edited the word "MARINE" on the Navy equipment to read "NAVY" instead. Add to that the fact that fansubbers and scanlators had been using "Marines" for ages, and people started to equate "Navy" with "4Kids Dub".

This is essentially the crux of the entire argument.

The characters' outfits say "MARINE" on them. It's hard to ignore it.
That's why the FUNi dub went the middle-grounded route of referring to the organization as a whole as the "Navy" and referring to the grunts as the "Marines".

4kids were faced with the prospect of doing an accurate translation of the Japanese, following what the characters' uniforms said, or making things up on their own, and shockingly, surprisingly, they went with an accurate translation of the Japanese. The problem is, they went too far in most fans' eyes and edited the video to go along with the proper translation.

This would be like FUNimation editing Kuririn's hat in the Namek Arc to read as "Kuririn" instead of "Kulilin" (And yes, I mean "Kuririn", not "Krillin")
Yes, it would be more accurate that way, but you just KNOW there would be a thrall of fanboys complaining that they edited the video at all.
The fact that they edited the video, Also mixed with the fact that most of these fans get their information from Fansubs and the fansubs NEVER Used "Navy" until Yibis came around, and you have people reacting negatively to it as a knee-jerk reaction to 4kids.

I'm frankly surprised as is that most people like Yibis' fansubs nowadays, given how they're going completely against the fan-grain as is and ditching all the ridiculous fan-terms and un-translations like "Marines", "nakama", "Haki", etc.

To be brutally honest, the majority of fansub viewers just flatly don't care.
The majority of North American Viewers watch the Simulcast, I know I do.
And Yibis' subs, who they profess are done solely for fans outside the US, are viewed most because they are the only group doing it right now, and when they aren't, they're still usually among the first to release.


As for the topic at hand, Kunzait_83's post pretty much hits the nail RIGHT on the head.
And it works the other way too. That's the reason why you sometimes see that odd fan who swears the Dragon Ball series' dubs are the only way they can watch the show, yet will turn around and bitch the very moment the One Piece, Naruto, or Bleach Dubs have a character say Something different than the fansubs did, even if the dub line is just as accurate if not more accurate.
Case-in-point, there is a part in One Piece where Sanji says "Hey, this is the Kuso Restoran" into the Telesnail.
Fansubbers put: "Hey, this is theShitty Restaurant"
FUNimation put: "Hey there, you've reached the Crap Café

Fansub fans bitched because it wasn't what they remembered. Their Nostalgia blinded them of the fact that "Crap" and "Shit" are synonyms, as are "Restaurant" and "Café"

In another line, Smoker tells his superiors off over the phone.
Fansubbers put: "Tell them they can go Eat Shit"
FUNimation put: "Tell them they can Go to Hell

The exact same meaning is conveyed, smoker is still telling his superiors off and is being very rude about it, they both even use a swear word. But the fans heard "Eat Shit" first, and got attached to it, so anything BUT that is wrong to them.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what has happened to Dragon Ball, though it affects the dub this time. And it's sad.

[Herms]

Quick question: couldn't Movie 7 possibly take place in the 4th timeline? I mean, yeah, nothing's confirmed, and by no means should it be on the Wiki (I actually confess to saying that Movie 7 took place in timeline 4 on the wiki about 2 years ago, but I went back and fixed it), but it's plausible, right?

I don't know, maybe. The main thing about Daizenshuu 7's timeline 4 is that Trunks isn't present for the Cell Games. Instead, he takes the android shutdown controller blueprints back to his future (timeline 3) and uses the controller to destroy 17 and 18, after which he is killed by Cell, who goes to the main series timeline (timeline 1). So if you could fit movie 7's events into that sequence somehow, I guess it would work. The problem with Daizenshuu 7's timeline 4 is that it seems to assume that events there would unfold very similar to the main series timeline...too similar to make much sense (where does timeline 4's full-grown Cell come from? How did Trunks find the controller blueprints without being tipped off to Cell's existence? etc).

Anyway, my problem with the DB wikia's take on the timelines is that it's explained in an almost nonsensical manner (timeline discussions are inherently confusing, and DB wikia's patented crap writing style doesn't help), and their explanation seems internally inconsistent.

[Kendamu]

"Forget fear; nostalgia is the real mind killer."

That's probably the best rant I've heard in a very long time!

The main thing about Daizenshuu 7's timeline 4 is that Trunks isn't present for the Cell Games. Instead, he takes the android shutdown controller blueprints back to his future (timeline 3) and uses the controller to destroy 17 and 18, after which he is killed by Cell, who goes to the main series timeline (timeline 1).

Wait. Fourth timeline? Holy crap. I know there's the main timeline, the timeline where Trunks is killed and Cell takes the time machine, and the timeline Trunks came from to kill Freeza and returned to after the Cell Game, but a fourth one?

Geez. When am I gonna see a Kanzentai Timeline Guide?

[Xyex]

Wait. Fourth timeline? Holy crap. I know there's the main timeline, the timeline where Trunks is killed and Cell takes the time machine, and the timeline Trunks came from to kill Freeza and returned to after the Cell Game, but a fourth one?

Geez. When am I gonna see a Kanzentai Timeline Guide?

Well, we know there must be a 4th timeline, because we see three of them and Cell implies a fourth one. The real problem is that the Daizenshuu's fourth timeline isn't one of the 3 seen or is it the one implied. It's actually an extraneous fifth timeline that comes from nowhere.

Stated Timelines
Original - The 'first' timeline, far as the series is concerned at least. This is where the Androids have wiped out most of the Earth and the origin point for Trunks and Cell. This is where Cell kills Trunks to steal his time machine.
Series Timeline - Pretty straight forward, this is the timeline we saw with Trunks showing up and killing Freeza, then Cell appearing and causing a mess.
Alternate Future - This is where Trunks kills Cell. It gets the label 'alternate' future because we already have the original future with Cell killing Trunks. This is the variation on that caused by the events in the Series Timeline resulting in Trunks knowing about, and subsequently killing, Cell.

Implied Timeline
Unseen Past - This timeline is implied to exist by Cell, when Cell explains killing Trunks and stealing the time machine. This unseen past is the timeline the dead Trunks visited, where Cell never appeared and the only threats were 17 and 18 (and perhaps 16).

Of course, you then have the Daizenshuu and it's mangling of time with it's introduction of, not another past timeline with another Cell and and another Cell Games, with no origin point for this Cell.

[SilverPlaqueVII]

The main thing about Daizenshuu 7's timeline 4 is that Trunks isn't present for the Cell Games. Instead, he takes the android shutdown controller blueprints back to his future (timeline 3) and uses the controller to destroy 17 and 18, after which he is killed by Cell, who goes to the main series timeline (timeline 1).

Wait. Fourth timeline? Holy crap. I know there's the main timeline, the timeline where Trunks is killed and Cell takes the time machine, and the timeline Trunks came from to kill Freeza and returned to after the Cell Game, but a fourth one?

Geez. When am I gonna see a Kanzentai Timeline Guide?

Wait as well, there are number of numerous Dragon Ball publications ignore the events of manga canonicity and tell stories that usually conflict with the canonical sagas.

Although unverified, a reasonable explanation may be that these story arcs are part of different timelines. However, it is unknown how these timelines were created, since one cannot attribute most of them to time travel. Like for example DB Movies 1-4 are actual retellings of the story arcs, DBZ Movies 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, 11, and 12 are what-ifs, The Dr. Slump remake, The "Saiyan Extermination" OVA, and video games.

Dragon Ball GT may be a "what-if" scenario due to Akira Toriyama wrote the info on Dragon Ball Online which is a canon replacement for the events of this series. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[Gaffer Tape]

Implied Timeline
Unseen Past - This timeline is implied to exist by Cell, when Cell explains killing Trunks and stealing the time machine. This unseen past is the timeline the dead Trunks visited, where Cell never appeared and the only threats were 17 and 18 (and perhaps 16).

Of course, you then have the Daizenshuu and it's mangling of time with it's introduction of, not another past timeline with another Cell and and another Cell Games, with no origin point for this Cell.

Wait a second. I, too, like Kendamu, am confused, and, unfortunately, this explanation hasn't clarified anything for me. I still don't get it. As far as I've seen, there's:

The Series Timeline: Obviously, the events as we see them unfold over the course of the series.
Trunks's Timeline: The timeline in which #s17 and 18 kill the main characters, and from whence Trunks comes. Then he returns home and, with his newly-found strength, kills the Jinzoningen and Cell.
Cell's Timeline: A variant of Trunks's timeline where Trunks somehow manages to kill #s17 and 18 but at the same time isn't strong enough to stop Cell from kicking his ass and taking the time machine back to before the time split.

I also see Xyex's split as being possible, wherein Cell killing Trunks is from Trunks's timeline, and Trunks killing Cell is the variant, due to the changes. But since a lot of other things in this timeline appears divergent, I list it the way I do. Either way, there are a lot of plot holes and other things that don't make sense. But I don't really see where a fourth timeline comes in. Is that supposed to explain away why things don't make sense? If so, then how? How could a "dead Trunks" visit any timeline? Why would he?

[desirecampbell]

I still like my time travel stuff best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGuHzVkLlno

[jjgp1112]

Well, there has to be a timeline for the Trunks in Cell's timeline to go to so he can get the blueprints for the Androids in the first place...

Wait, that makes it even more confuzzling, because how come Cell traveled back to the same timeline that the original Trunks traveled back too? Dang, that don't make no sense, Jethro.

I think it works like this: The timeline that Cell came from is the original timeline, so then Trunks goes back in time to warn everyone about the androids and all of that shit. And then, when Cell came and killed him and went back a year further than Trunks. However, he was going to the past of a timeline that was already altered by time traveling in the first place, and since he time traveled, a duplicate of that timeline was created (the series timeline), which means it'd also be altered by time travel, creating a residual duplicate of Cell & Trunks' timeline (the timeline with the Trunks we know.

Basically, Trunks traveling back in time permanently fucked up the space-time continuum and made any "past" dimension of his timeline that starts at Age 764 play out the same way as the timeline he originally traveled back too. Whcih means that if someone travels back to that point or before, it will play out exactly like the one Trunks went to, and like I said before, since that timeline was created by time travel in the first place, a future timeline is created for it so it can actually exist. Trunks' timeline and the Past Timeline are basically indirectly connected to each other because while Trunks' timeline can exist independently, anything before or at 764 that's traveled to after Trunks' original trip needs the 784 timeline for it to exist, so whenever the Age 764 timeline is duplicated, the 784-based timeline is naturally duplicated along with it. The the 788 timeline is basically a part of the 764 timeline, even though the events in each don't affect each other.

[Xyex]

Wait a second. I, too, like Kendamu, am confused, and, unfortunately, this explanation hasn't clarified anything for me. I still don't get it. As far as I've seen, there's:

The Series Timeline: Obviously, the events as we see them unfold over the course of the series.
Trunks's Timeline: The timeline in which #s17 and 18 kill the main characters, and from whence Trunks comes. Then he returns home and, with his newly-found strength, kills the Jinzoningen and Cell.
Cell's Timeline: A variant of Trunks's timeline where Trunks somehow manages to kill #s17 and 18 but at the same time isn't strong enough to stop Cell from kicking his ass and taking the time machine back to before the time split.

I also see Xyex's split as being possible, wherein Cell killing Trunks is from Trunks's timeline, and Trunks killing Cell is the variant, due to the changes. But since a lot of other things in this timeline appears divergent, I list it the way I do. Either way, there are a lot of plot holes and other things that don't make sense. But I don't really see where a fourth timeline comes in. Is that supposed to explain away why things don't make sense? If so, then how? How could a "dead Trunks" visit any timeline? Why would he?

The "dead Trunks" died when preparing to enter his time machine to go back and tell the others in the past that he'd defeated his Androids. This means that he's already been to the past before this, to warn Goku and the others about the Androids in the first place. This Trunks also never met Cell, so he was in a past devoid of Cell and the Cell Games, which is why Cell was able to catch him by surprise and overpower him. That's where the 4th timeline comes in at, and why the timeline where Trunks kills Cell has to be the variant. I'll graph it out best as I can here.

A - The Original Timeline. Trunks travels back and creates...
B - The Unseen Timeline. Trunks arrives and warns Goku about the Androids. Stuff happens, Trunks goes back to...
A - The Original Timeline, where three years later he has been successful in defeating 17 and 18 is about to go back to let the others know when Cell kills him, steals the time machine, and goes back to....
C - The Series Timeline. Cell arrives here, mucks things up, and gives Trunks (split off from B just like Goku and the others were split off when the timeline split) knowledge of his existence, and the need to become much stronger than he had to otherwise. Following the Cell Games Trunks makes the trip to go home and enters into....
D - The Alternate Future. The original future has already happened, Cell has already killed Trunks. To prevent a paradox, and because you can't change history, Trunks's return splits the timeline creating this alternate future where he knows of, and is able to overpower, Cell.

I still like my time travel stuff best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGuHzVkLlno

And I still think yours is needlessly overcomplicated and that the "Lazy Cell" problem is a much larger issue than "Splitting Trunks" problem.

[Gaffer Tape]

The "dead Trunks" died when preparing to enter his time machine to go back and tell the others in the past that he'd defeated his Androids. This means that he's already been to the past before this, to warn Goku and the others about the Androids in the first place. This Trunks also never met Cell, so he was in a past devoid of Cell and the Cell Games, which is why Cell was able to catch him by surprise and overpower him. That's where the 4th timeline comes in at, and why the timeline where Trunks kills Cell has to be the variant. I'll graph it out best as I can here.

But... why couldn't that Trunks have simply been going back as his second trip? As in, this Trunks went to the past and warned Goku. Then he went back to his future, trained for a bit, and managed to beat the Jinzoningen. Then he was attempting to return to the past to help out and give the message and then Cell showed up and killed him. That would explain why he hadn't been to the Cell Game. Oh, but I guess that would leave a present day timeline where Trunks didn't come back, so there'd still be another variant. Ugh.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

I still like my time travel stuff best: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGuHzVkLlno

Jeez, that's some complicated shit. Even for Dragon Ball.



Great video, BTW.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Jeez, that's some complicated shit. Even for Dragon Ball.

I think I'm gonna make it into my signature!

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Jeez, that's some complicated shit. Even for Dragon Ball.

I think I'm gonna make it into my signature!

Lol.


But seriously, this "alternate timelines" is making my head spin.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

But seriously, this "alternate timelines" is making my head spin.

Me too

[Xyex]

But... why couldn't that Trunks have simply been going back as his second trip? As in, this Trunks went to the past and warned Goku. Then he went back to his future, trained for a bit, and managed to beat the Jinzoningen. Then he was attempting to return to the past to help out and give the message and then Cell showed up and killed him. That would explain why he hadn't been to the Cell Game. Oh, but I guess that would leave a present day timeline where Trunks didn't come back, so there'd still be another variant. Ugh.

Because Trunks only remained in his own timeline long enough to recharge the time machine, which is (IIRC) 8 months. Then he went back again. Cell did not appear until 3 years after Trunks first went back to warn Goku. More than 2 years after Trunks's second trip into the past.