Bra

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think we should just settle it and say that basically puberty is inconsistent in manga, sinec we're not really going anywhere here. There have been arguments claiming that Vegeta in the Bardock Special looks older than his actual age, 5, when the exact opposite is stated of Saiyans in the manga, who retain their youth longer (as proof of Goku being 15 at the 22nd Budokai, but having barely grown in the 3 years). Then again, some argue that the Bardock Special isn't canon, and therefore Vegeta's appearance at 5 means nothing.

About the whole 13/14-year-old sporting racks, I know it's been answered already, but yes, you do see 13/14-year-old girls with fairly large breasts (since that's around the age you begin puberty), and some even younger than that. I remember seeing a programme about a 11 or 12 year old girl who had begun puberty so early she looked like a full-grown adult and men were hitting on her. I even have a friend who was wearing bras at the age of 11. So it's not all that unusual today.

Concerning the "5-years" thing being a retcon...I think we need more evidence to absolutely prove that, although that doesn't mean it's not true. Personally, I just actually think of Bra as being an 11-year-old who growth-spurted early and has the body of a 16-year-old. If we're thinking about in real-life terms. She is a half-Saiyan, so she doesn't have to take on the "slow-grower" of Saiyan biology, and she appears to take after Bulma rather than Vegeta. Human-type Earthlings don't follow the same puberty rules as Saiyans, and we don't know when Bulma spurted up.

Oh, and Bra is not lolicon, because her character design (and personality, if it counts) says otherwise. If she was lolicon, she'd look like Chi-Chi at 12. A prepubescent child presented in a sexual way. Some people may look at her differently, but I don't think she's presented in that way.

But really, this is the murky world of manga we're talking about here, so it's anyone's guess.

[Herms]

Not to mention that Toriyama's Earlier Manga, Dr. Slump proves that toriyama during the 80's had no idea of proper age proportions, specially considering than theres a girl, Tsun tsurutin that's supposed to be 15-16 but looks 9, and his brother is supposed to be 13 but looks 17, and not to mention, the second and third parts of the manga, has these proportions.

Uh...that vampire girl isn't Tsururin. She's actually one of the weird inhabitants of Wonder Island, and appears during the early part of the manga, long before the Tsun family ever shows up.

[baragon_kun]

Not to mention that Toriyama's Earlier Manga, Dr. Slump proves that toriyama during the 80's had no idea of proper age proportions, specially considering than theres a girl, Tsun tsurutin that's supposed to be 15-16 but looks 9, and his brother is supposed to be 13 but looks 17, and not to mention, the second and third parts of the manga, has these proportions.

Uh...that vampire girl isn't Tsururin. She's actually one of the weird inhabitants of Wonder Island, and appears during the early part of the manga, long before the Tsun family ever shows up.

I did know, i never said this girl on the page was Tsururin

[Herms]

I did know, i never said this girl on the page was Tsururin

So why did you even post her picture in the first place? We don't know how old the vampire is supposed to be, so what's that got to do with her Toriyama depicts ages?

[Perfect]

I've seen teenagers with D cups, so I don't see that as a problem. I've also seen 20-40 year olds with A cups.
Genetics.

[Bura]

Can we stop the discussion on Bra's boobs as we may actually change the topic title if this goes on?

[Bussani]

I think we should just settle it and say that basically puberty is inconsistent in manga, sinec we're not really going anywhere here. There have been arguments claiming that Vegeta in the Bardock Special looks older than his actual age, 5, when the exact opposite is stated of Saiyans in the manga, who retain their youth longer (as proof as Goku being 15 at the 22nd Budokai, but having barely grown in the 3 years). Then again, some argue that the Bardock Special isn't canon, and therefore Vegeta's appearance at 5 means nothing.

Saiyans are meant to stay in their prime longer, not just age slower altogether. If anything I'd think that Saiyans would want to age faster to reach their perfect body quicker, but it apparently doesn't work that way.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Can we stop the discussion on Bra's boobs as we may actually change the topic title if this goes on?

Well, the topic is about Bra and her boobs are a part of her so........

[Rocketman]

Can we stop the discussion on Bra's boobs as we may actually change the topic title if this goes on?

If one is Bra and one is talking about Bra, then that makes two bras...no, four.

[Xyex]

I'm a bit late here, but....

I know what lolicon is. And there's no way Toei intended Bra to qualify while the show was in production. If the 5 year thing were never mentioned no way in hell anybody here would even consider the possibility Bra was prepubescent because every piece of evidence in the actual show says otherwise.

I had no idea when GT was set the first time I saw a clip of Bra. I immediately assumed she was no older than 11 based on her design.

The gag was that the prince is now the overprotective dad of a slightly rebellious teenage daughter.

The gag is more that Bra's got him wrapped around her finger and can do whatever she wants. She's a mini-Bulma, I wouldn't be surprised if she had been dressing like that since she was 5.

Chi-Chi may have a bust but she's certainly drawn like a "kid" with those classic Dragon Ball squashed proportions. Bra is nowhere near that.

Bra's not classic Dragonball. Look at Kid Goku in GT. He doesn't look like his original DB self at all. The style changed between when the first kids were introduced and the later ones were. That's all.

You may find the concept of Bra being 10/11, and having been intended to be that from the start, to be 'icky' or whatever, but that doesn't negate the possibility. Or its likelyhood.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm a bit late here, but....

I know what lolicon is. And there's no way Toei intended Bra to qualify while the show was in production. If the 5 year thing were never mentioned no way in hell anybody here would even consider the possibility Bra was prepubescent because every piece of evidence in the actual show says otherwise.

I had no idea when GT was set the first time I saw a clip of Bra. I immediately assumed she was no older than 11 based on her design.

It's funny because I had the exact opposite reaction. When she got hit on by men of driving age that just reinforced what I had already assumed. People have been saying "Japan" to that but this is Dragon Ball. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen here with men hitting on prepubescent girls. Even Roshi seems to know better. If Bra and Pan are prepubescent then there's some serious thematic dissonance between GT and the entire Dragon Ball legacy. Toei may do stupid things but they've always stayed thematically consistent.

The gag was that the prince is now the overprotective dad of a slightly rebellious teenage daughter.

The gag is more that Bra's got him wrapped around her finger and can do whatever she wants. She's a mini-Bulma, I wouldn't be surprised if she had been dressing like that since she was 5.

Again, it's not just her design. It's how she handles herself (flirting, excessive shopping, etc.) and how people act around her. She's pretty much the stereotypical teenage girl. Sure, in our real world a 10 year old could do that stuff but in the world of fiction those behaviors are typical of the textbook teenage girl. It's pretty much the trope word for word. And as a writer you don't invoke a character trope if you don't intend the audience to identify with it. What would Toei be trying to tell us by giving her these characteristics other than "Bra is a typical teenager"? It would be pretty obtuse for them to apply the teenage girl stereotype in every way shape and form all the while intending her to be only 10 or so but never once actually filling us in on that during the course of the show. GT isn't the pinnacle of great writing or anything but that would be really bad writing, even for GT's standards.

Chi-Chi may have a bust but she's certainly drawn like a "kid" with those classic Dragon Ball squashed proportions. Bra is nowhere near that.

Bra's not classic Dragonball. Look at Kid Goku in GT. He doesn't look like his original DB self at all. The style changed between when the first kids were introduced and the later ones were. That's all.

That's not true at all. You're telling me Kid Goku in GT doesn't have similar proportions to his early DB self? Sure, the design got more complex and less round but the proportions aren't very different if you look at his head to body ratio. Chi-Chi as a kid had the same kind of proportions. As does pretty much every kid we ever see. Even Gohan during Cell had some of it going on. Bra, on the other hand, has none of that.

You may find the concept of Bra being 10/11, and having been intended to be that from the start, to be 'icky' or whatever, but that doesn't negate the possibility. Or its likelyhood.

Possibility? Sure. Likelihood? No. It's just too obtuse for Toei to have had it in mind, even for them. I'm trying to think of another situation where something like this has happened in fiction and for the life of me I can't. That's probably because nobody in their right mind would do that. It's somewhat similar to Chekhov's Gun. If she's not supposed to be a teenager then why is she acting like one without further explanation of her age? It's not that it's icky. It's that it genuinely makes no sense based on other character designs. I'm not talking bust size. I'm talking proportions. And if we start going into the whole "in the real world some girls mature faster" that doesn't really have much bearing on fiction. Reason being, we then go back to the same problem.

Why is Toei giving a prepubescent Bra adult proportions when every other child in the series up to that point has had a tighter head to body ratio yet never once filling us in on her real age? We know that there's essentially a rule of Dragon Ball design where prepubescent and post-pubescent characters have different proportions. So if a character has post-pubescent proportions then it's probably safe to assume he or she is consistent with the rule. And if he or she isn't consistent with the rule there should be an explanation. The existence of the consistent rule of design + no explanation otherwise should imply Toei never intended to break the rule in the first place.

I'm not saying you're wrong with 100% certainty. It's certainly possible that GT is just weird like that. But it's just that I see ample evidence within the show itself that contradicts the 5 year assertion. I think the issue is at least debatable.

[Rocketman]

It's funny because I had the exact opposite reaction. When she got hit on by men of driving age that just reinforced what I had already assumed. People have been saying "Japan" to that but this is Dragon Ball. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen here with men hitting on prepubescent girls. Even Roshi seems to know better.

[Kingdom Heartless]

It's funny because I had the exact opposite reaction. When she got hit on by men of driving age that just reinforced what I had already assumed. People have been saying "Japan" to that but this is Dragon Ball. That kind of stuff just doesn't happen here with men hitting on prepubescent girls. Even Roshi seems to know better.

[img]*snip*[/img]

Yeah, but that's after he's able to knock her out because he doesn't see her as a woman.

[TonyTheTiger]

Wasn't Yamcha just toying with her? He wasn't genuinely interested. Now if Roshi had felt her up or something...

...

My mind just went to a very dark place.

[Xyex]

Wasn't Yamcha just toying with her? He wasn't genuinely interested. Now if Roshi had felt her up or something...

...

My mind just went to a very dark place.

Sure, he wasn't being entirely serious, but it's still an example of a young girl being hit on. And let's not forget all of Bulma's flashing and Roshi's trying to feel her up when she was 16. Sure, that's another 5 years added on, but she's still young.

Honestly, I don't see Bra's thing as "Teenage girl trope" but as "Look, it's Bulma, only smaller."

[Bussani]

Bra's not classic Dragonball. Look at Kid Goku in GT. He doesn't look like his original DB self at all. The style changed between when the first kids were introduced and the later ones were. That's all.

That's not true at all. You're telling me Kid Goku in GT doesn't have similar proportions to his early DB self?

Well...he doesn't. The difference between beginning-of-Dragon-Ball Goku and GT Goku is larger than the difference between Pan, Bra and 9-year-old Gohan.

[TonyTheTiger]

Proportionally they aren't all that different. The additional muscle tone and heavier use of shading doesn't change the fact that he's clearly proportioned like the old school kid Goku. They're both about 2-2.5 "heads" tall. Bra is at least 4-5 heads.

[Bussani]

Proportionally they aren't all that different. The additional muscle tone and heavier use of shading doesn't change the fact that he's clearly proportioned like the old school kid Goku. They're both about 2-2.5 "heads" tall.

I'm just not seeing it. GT Goku is at least a whole extra "head" tall. Goten and Trunks at 7 and 8 weren't even as small as Goku originally was, and Gohan was only that small when he was 4.

...Hell, looking at chapter 206, I think Gohan was a tad taller when he was 4.

[Coola Yagami]

Can we stop the discussion on Bra's boobs as we may actually change the topic title if this goes on?

Or lack there of......

[Goku100xKamehameha]

Can we stop the discussion on Bra's boobs as we may actually change the topic title if this goes on?

Why change it? bra - boobs they're connected you know?