Gods with "sama"-honorific treated as full names in Viz?

[Adamant]

In terms of "Sama" I always assumed the best translation for it would be "Lord" which in a lot of anime adaptions that are pretty faithful, "Sama" is translated as Lord, which makes me wonder why in Kai that FUNi couldn't had tried to match:
1) The character's name is 'Kaio" not 'Kai'
2) They want to try and be as faithful as they can but won't?

Would "Lord Kaio" worked alright or appropriately?

No, because his name isn't Kaio. It's a title, just like "Kami" is.

I won't get too far into the entire debate on whether or not to keep honorifics or not, but note that a lot of foreign subtitles for English-language TV and movies keep "Mr.", "mrs." and "miss" instead of translating to the local equivalent.

[TripleRach]

I won't get too far into the entire debate on whether or not to keep honorifics or not, but note that a lot of foreign subtitles for English-language TV and movies keep "Mr.", "mrs." and "miss" instead of translating to the local equivalent.

I've heard the same thing is often done in English subs of non-Japanese languages, too. Like "Monsieur" being kept in English subs of French movies, or "Herr" in German movies, etc. So it's not just some "weeaboo" practice.

[JulieYBM]

I won't get too far into the entire debate on whether or not to keep honorifics or not, but note that a lot of foreign subtitles for English-language TV and movies keep "Mr.", "mrs." and "miss" instead of translating to the local equivalent.

I've heard the same thing is often done in English subs of non-Japanese languages, too. Like "Monsieur" being kept in English subs of French movies, or "Herr" in German movies, etc. So it's not just some "weeaboo" practice.

Heck, the film Amadeus (produced in English) uses 'herr' (German) and even Itallian phrases (which escape my memory at the moment...).

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

God, I hate honourifics in translations. It's a translators job to translate things. In this case, it's English. Last I checked, "san" and "sama" aren't English words. Yes, they don't have direct English translations. But so what? Leaving them in untranslated is a cop out. Translators should find way translate them, based on the context. They're called "translators", aren't they? Part of their job to adapt certain language "quirks", into another language. Leaving in honourifics does the opposite of this (as do using macrons and circumflexes, but that's for another day).


And some of them don't even have to be translated if they're not that important to a character's relationship with another character. They can just be omitted completely. Is it really going to make much different whether it's "Daichi-chan" or just "Daichi"?


Sorry if I enter into "rant mode" here. It's just reading through this thread made me remember something I truly hate.

[VegettoEX]

God, I hate honourifics in translations. It's a translators job to translate things.

You're repeating statements made early in the thread that have been refuted/rebutted/argued since then. Do you have anything to counter with, or are you just going to complain in your own little silo?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

God, I hate honourifics in translations. It's a translators job to translate things.

You're repeating statements made early in the thread that have been refuted/rebutted/argued since then. Do you have anything to counter with, or are you just going to complain in your own little silo?

If you read the rest of my post, you'll have seen that I actually elaborated on that statement. Futhermore, I'm not seeing where that statement has been concretely refuted.

[VegettoEX]

If you read the rest of my post, you'll have seen that I actually elaborated on that statement. Futhermore, I'm not seeing where that statement has been concretely refuted.

Don't get cute with me. Your inability to carry on a conversation beyond your own little world is something you have to be warned about consistently, and yet you never do anything about it. Are you looking for account warnings / bans?

You repeated the same rhetoric expressed early on in the thread (nearly verbatim) -- "It's a translators job to translate things" -- without adding any new to the conversation. Other community members have brought examples to the table that directly contradict the examples you posted (which, again, were used at the beginning of the thread and have since been countered).

It's fine to have a viewpoint, express your opinions, and go on your merry way. Your problem is that you don't actually read the rest of the posts, and in turn get upset and tell other people to read the rest of the posts when you're not validated.

I don't even necessary disagree with you, but when you bring absolutely nothing to the table, you might as well not even bother wasting your time typing the words into the text box.

[Amigo Ten]

As far as I'm concerned, a translation should make it sound as though the work was written in whatever language it's being translated to. If it's being translated into English, it should sound like it was originally written in English. Some things might be lost, but I'd rather that happen than for the translator to leave in stuff that simply doesn't exist in the English language.

Just talking about the grammar and syntax of the language of course, not cultural references or names or whatever. Even with names though, at least try to make them make sense in terms of spelling and such. For example, Gokuu. It's pointless. I know that in Japanese the single u sound and the double u are different and they have different characters to denote the different pronunciation, but we don't need that in English. The double u is redundant in this case.

Even for titles and stuff, like Kaio or Kami, I'd rather have them translated. Otherwise it might as well be a made up word, or as is the case with Dragon Ball in English, it starts to sound like an actual name. I know Viz did sometimes explain what these things meant, but consistency isn't their strong point. Plus I think if you're having to explain it anyway, just translate it. I really don't see the point of keeping something in Japanese and then explaining it in a footnote, and then continuing to use the Japanese word. Just translate it. Same for attack names. Just translate them.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Really? I have Volume 16 in front of me, and Piccolo simply calls him Kami.
Piccolo calls them Kami and Kaio, never has he referred to them with a -sama in the Viz Manga. If it did happen, it must only have been once.

In DBZ Volume 1, when Piccolo's talking about bringing back Goku with the Dragon Ball, he says, "Even Kami-sama lacks the power to bring back the dead." And those instances Greenman mentioned.

[VegettoEX]

I really don't see the point of keeping something in Japanese and then explaining it in a footnote, and then continuing to use the Japanese word. Just translate it. Same for attack names. Just translate them.

One of my classic example is then, well...

The author of the series is "Bird Mountain". Just translate it! Gotcha! Done!

We're translating, right? Well, then how do you reconcile that it's the author's name and then there's also the studio literally named "Bird Mountain"...?

It's a name, though, right? We don't "translate" names! How is a name (a formal, proper noun) different from an attack name, though? They're both just combos of syllables and intended-meanings to get across a larger idea, expressed as something distinct with a given name to set it apart from other, minor ideas.

That's why, for me, anything that's a proper noun I typically keep in its original language when "translating" it to English. I write out Kienzan and such. You have crazy examples like "Kamehameha" which is a combination of Japanese and gibberish, so what do you do with it? Translate the Japanese part? "Kamehame-Wave/Blast"...? "Turtle-Hame-Wave/Blast"...? That's... awkward.

I don't really have an answer for you, in the end. These are the quirks you have to deal with when translating, and even your own consistency may sometimes be broken in order to get a translation/adaptation across. To sit back and say, "No! I will never use honorifics in a translation!"... well, that just sounds painfully amateurish / based on little experience. Maybe that will be the case in something that you translate, but it probably won't universally cover every single last thing you do.

[SHINOBI-03]

Really? I have Volume 16 in front of me, and Piccolo simply calls him Kami.
Piccolo calls them Kami and Kaio, never has he referred to them with a -sama in the Viz Manga. If it did happen, it must only have been once.

In DBZ Volume 1, when Piccolo's talking about bringing back Goku with the Dragon Ball, he says, "Even Kami-sama lacks the power to bring back the dead." And those instances Greenman mentioned.

Speaking of which, What does Piccolo call Kaio when talking to Goku on his way to Namek in the Viz version? And what was Kaio's response to him? Everything I have is boxed and sealed away and I can't open them all.

I know the original goes like "Son, I'm talking to you know through Kaio." "How dare you? It's kaio-sama!" But I can't remember how it went in the Viz version.

[Amigo Ten]

I would like attack names translated because it would just sound more natural to have it in English. A character's name, or a place name, can be anything. I've never wondered what "Manchester" means, or even wondered if it means anything at all. Same with names. I know they can have meaning, but knowing the meaning isn't part of understanding who that person is. Knowing what "Manchester" means isn't going to help me know what Manchester is like.

But when someone in a comic yells "Take this! MAKANKOSAPPO!", I think "Hmm, what does that mean?". While character/place names can denote something about that character/place, it's not something you necessarily expect. I certainly don't. So when I hear a character/place name, I don't wonder what it means, and I don't desire any explanation/translation of it. When I hear "Oh, I went to Laos on holiday" I don't ask what Laos means. It's just a place name. It might have a meaning that describes what the country is like in some way, but I just don't think about place names that way.

This is why things like Kami end up being thought of as names. Viz introduced Kami as God, and God is a word that English speakers should be very familiar with, so you get that it is a title of sorts. That this person is God of the Earth, rather than someone just coincidentally called God. But look at how Funimation did it (and what Viz fell in to after a while). He was just introduced as Kami. Kami isn't a word in the English language, but the context in which it is introduced doesn't make people wonder what it could possibly mean, because you don't think about a person's name in that way. It could just be complete gibberish for all the reader knows, and not a real word in any language.

The context doesn't imply that the word has any kind of meaning beyond just being an arbitrary collection of sounds that have been designated as a certain character's name. But the context in which attack names are used does imply some kind of literal meaning. When some yells an attack name and it's left in Japanese, I wonder what it means.

Which is why I would prefer that they were translated.

[Herms]

But if you just want to know what the name means, that's what margin notes are for. Makankosappo translates out to "Demon Piercing Light Kill Cannon". Imagine having to write that out every time the name comes up!

[Amigo Ten]

It only comes up once. I'd rather just have it translated there in the speech bubble than in a footnote.

[Herms]

It only comes up once.

It's name is said at least twice in the manga. And it's hardly the only example. Kikoho translates to "Spirit Manipulation Cannon", Kienzan would be "Spirit Circle Cutter", Kaio-ken is "Fist of the World King", etc.

I'd rather just have it translated there in the speech bubble than in a footnote.

There's Viz's practice of having a character say the Japanese name, followed by a translation in quotation marks, with the Japanese name being the default in later instances (ie "The Genki-Dama, 'Energy Sphere', is a blah blah blah"). How do you feel about that?

[Amigo Ten]

I don't mind it. As cumbersome as it might sound, I would just prefer it to be translated though.

[Turtle Marked Stone]

You have crazy examples like "Kamehameha" which is a combination of Japanese and gibberish, so what do you do with it? Translate the Japanese part? "Kamehame-Wave/Blast"...? "Turtle-Hame-Wave/Blast"...? That's... awkward.

Is it anymore awkward then Kamehameha though? I dunno they both sound silly and cumbersome which is why they were named that way right? Or am I making shit up again? The way I remember it is Toriyama asked his wife for a name and she rattled off Kamehameha and he thought that sounded perfect for Roshi because of how goofy it was. Of course I'm a VIZ apologist so I'm probably incredibly biased on the matter.

Even if the attack wasn't meant to be silly doesn't Makankasoppo sound just as unintentionally silly to the Japanese audience as it would to us translated? (I'm not trying to be snippy I'm really asking. Far be it from me to try and question people far,faaaar more knowledgeable on this subject then I.)

[Adamant]

For example, Gokuu. It's pointless. I know that in Japanese the single u sound and the double u are different and they have different characters to denote the different pronunciation, but we don't need that in English. The double u is redundant in this case.

It's more a case of a single u looking better than of the double u being redundant. How many English-speakers have you heard say Goku's name in a way that even tries to resemble the correct pronunciation?

[TonyTheTiger]

You have crazy examples like "Kamehameha" which is a combination of Japanese and gibberish, so what do you do with it? Translate the Japanese part? "Kamehame-Wave/Blast"...? "Turtle-Hame-Wave/Blast"...? That's... awkward.

Is it anymore awkward then Kamehameha though?

I think so though admittedly that could just be because our video game and anime influenced selves have been raised on random Japanese attack names.

But I think the reason why kamehameha works better than any English or semi-English translation is two fold.

First, sometimes it's just better to not "understand" what is being said. Even if we are well aware of what Kamehameha translates to, we're naturally going to be more sensitive to awkwardness in our native language. If Ryu shouted "Wave motion fist!" every time he threw a fireball we'd probably be "eh..." because of how verbose it is. The extra syllables alone make it awkward as opposed to the quick three syllable "Hadoken!" I'm reminded of Soul Calibur II where while it was fine hearing Siegfried yell "Kore!" over and over again in Japanese it all of a sudden became too obvious when he wouldn't stop saying "Take this!" in English. There's something about the English language that doesn't always "click" with that brand of attack name shouting, particularly when it's repetitive. Superman doesn't fly around screaming "Heat vision!" at the top of his lungs. Sure, you get a "Sonic Boom" once in a while but notice that Guile's attack isn't literally a sonic boom. In his case the English words are figurative. It's not "arm swing wave."

Second, the attacks are usually superpower oriented. And as a result it's sometimes easy to just hand wave away "Kamehameha" as something like "Hocus Pocus" or "Abra Cadabra" where it's just random magic words. In some instances that's literally the case as in Raiden from Mortal Kombat.

[Herms]

Is it anymore awkward then Kamehameha though? I dunno they both sound silly and cumbersome which is why they were named that way right? Or am I making shit up again? The way I remember it is Toriyama asked his wife for a name and she rattled off Kamehameha and he thought that sounded perfect for Roshi because of how goofy it was. Of course I'm a VIZ apologist so I'm probably incredibly biased on the matter.

Well, the idea was that the 'Kame" in Kamehameha matched the kame/turtle part of Kame-sennin's name. And "Kamehameha" is taken from the name of the famous Hawaiian king.

Even if the attack wasn't meant to be silly doesn't Makankasoppo sound just as unintentionally silly to the Japanese audience as it would to us translated? (I'm not trying to be snippy I'm really asking. Far be it from me to try and question people far,faaaar more knowledgeable on this subject then I.)

Attack names made up of long strings of kanji are extremely common in shonen manga (a practice deriving from actual martial arts), and they're usually presented pretty straight-faced. So I'd imagine the target audience at least finds them pretty cool. Then again I find it hard to believe that in Yu Yu Hakusho, Yomi's Makoiryurenpahanshuheki attack wasn't intended as some sort of parody.