Kaioshin

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

Regarding Kibito, remember that the guy couldn't lift the Z Sword off the ground at all, while base Gohan could swing it around a bit (later, he wields it with ease).

[Savage68]

I'm almost entirely certain that was a gag scene.

[Chibi Mystic Gohan]

And? It was still too heavy for him, that's why it was funny in the first place.

[Herms]

Well, there is that line before Gohan fights Kibito where he says he can't win against him while still concealing his true power, and Daizenshuu 7 has a line in Kibito's bio based on that, saying he's a tough fight for non-Super Saiyan Gohan. So I tend to think that in this case at least a big difference in arm strength doesn't automatically mean a big difference in overall fighting ability.

[Senzu_Bean]

As far as we know East Kaioshin never tried to handle the Z Sword. Otherwise Kibito wouldn't have left him out of this sentence:

A-are you serious, Kaioshin-sama…?!! There’s no way that a human or the like would be able to use the Z Sword!! That legendary sword which not merely myself, but numerous Kaioshins were utterly unable to handle…

[p123]

I think it's important we use Gohan's statement, and the Z sword exchange.

The entire point at then end of the day is that yes Base Gohan is stronger than Kibito, but not by huge measures.

So Kibito should be 50-75% of Base Gohan or so...

Keep in mind that Base Gohan shows no regard for Piccolo's power and probably is stronger than Piccolo making Kibito uber strong, well into the 100millions.

[Senzu_Bean]

Kibito is stronger than Gohan, otherwise he wouldn't need Super Saiyan to beat him.

[p123]

Gohan only said that Kibito looks like a strong opponent. He doesn't sense his ki. As we can see Base Gohan is clearly stronger than Kibito.

[Senzu_Bean]

As we can see Base Gohan is clearly stronger than Kibito.

Arm strength doesn't equal to ki strength. And as we know his Daizenshuu bio. claims he is enough opponent to give non-Super Gohan a good fight. At most they are even.

[p123]

I don't agree. If a character is shown to be stronger, he is stronger ki wise strength wise in general.

Ki not going up enough in terms of plot development is irrelevant because the whole point is the implication.

AT is not sitting there with a damn calculator trying to figure out that 90k Goku = 100 gravity and how much Vegeta would be in 300k. It doesn't work that way.

It's just a simple method, this guy is stronger than that guy.


The Daiz bio is non canon, so I don't see how it is relevant. Gohan only says Kibito LOOKS strong, later we learn he is not as strong as he looked. Pretty simple.

[Senzu_Bean]

The Daiz bio is non canon, so I don't see how it is relevant.

Canon is a meaningless word. It is every bit as relevant as the manga and much, much more than fans assumptions.

[p123]

Not when it contradicts the manga. The manga is the only thing worth discussion in particular debates. Especially power debates. You have brought no logic using the manga, but have opted to use a guide to prove your point. Which is irrelevant, because we are discussing the manga, not the guide.

[Senzu_Bean]

The manga is the only thing worth discussion in particular debates. Especially power debates.

No here, pal. This isn't Neoseeker boards. People usually prefer use their assumptions over the guides but not me. When something isn't clear on the manga you can and should use the guides to prove your point.

[p123]

Exactly. This is Daizex, thanks for noticing. But you forgot to notice that the person you are having a debate with is not accepting the guides. And is asking for an in story explanation. So if you want to continue discussing this issue, bring some logic from you know, the actual story we are discussing, and we can continue. If not agree to disagree.

[Godo]

Gohan only said that Kibito looks like a strong opponent. He doesn't sense his ki. As we can see Base Gohan is clearly stronger than Kibito.

Piccolo told Gohan not to underestimate Kibito, and that he should go SSJ to be able to defeat him. So we have two characters who thinks that SSJ is the only way of defeating Kibito, and then we have you.
And the sword scene was a gag scene.

[p123]

Yea you could use that.

I like to use... That the earlier part of the Buu Saga suffers from hype. Kibito/Kaioshin/Dabura are all hyped up characters.

All three characters have some seriously high expectations placed on them during the Budokai. Later however we are shown they weren't really all that special.

That's whats great about the Buu Saga, there are wildly differing plausible views on it. AT definitley made this saga quite a mystery, likely purposefully as well for the re read value.



Also AxB directly conflicts with certain Buu Saga implications.


Daiz says Gohan ~ Kibito right?

How strong are the boys pre rosat in comparison?


KibitoShin >>> Base Gotenks then right?

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gohan only said that Kibito looks like a strong opponent. He doesn't sense his ki. As we can see Base Gohan is clearly stronger than Kibito.

Piccolo told Gohan not to underestimate Kibito, and that he should go SSJ to be able to defeat him. So we have two characters who thinks that SSJ is the only way of defeating Kibito, and then we have you.
And the sword scene was a gag scene.

I don't see why people keep hiding behind the whole "gag scene" thing. I'm not arguing that it's not a gag, but it's still funny because Gohan is able to hold the Z-Sword with ease, while Kibito drops it and can't even pick it up. I'm not saying that Gohan is far stronger than Kibito or anything, since the Z-Sword thing could only be due to muscle or arm strength or whatever, but it's not something to just be dismissed as "a gag scene", especially when it is poking fun at the difference in strength of two people.

Either way, we don't know just how strong Kibito is because even all those statements from Goku and Piccolo about not holding back could be interpreted as being that both Kaioshin and Kibito were strange guys that they knew practically nothing about, and it would be an unwise choice to let your guard down against someone who, for all you know, could kick your ass.

But I'll take the Daizenshuu's word on this, that Kibito is strong enough to give Gohan a hard time without Super Saiyan, since when it comes to a situation where there are conflicting opinions based on numerous interpretations in the manga, the Daizenshuu's your next source of reference. Personally, I believe that Kibito is slightly weaker than base Gohan.

[p123]

AT is not sitting there with a calculator saying well they are equal in ki but Gohan is stronger than Kibito because of this type of training.

The simplest way is AT is showing us

Gohan > Kibito


And that's it.

[dbgtFO]

AT is not sitting there with a calculator saying well they are equal in ki but Gohan is stronger than Kibito because of this type of training.

The simplest way is AT is showing us

Gohan > Kibito


And that's it.

I can only agree with this and what Piccolo Daimao said.
And Goku was also able to lift the Z sword putting him above Kibito in base.
I don't recall anyone claiming, that there are differing levels of strength after ki usage got popular.
The only exception being Babidi and his physical strength being very low, but having tremendous amounts of magical strength.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[p123]

Ki = Strength. It's just that AT doesn't sit there with a calculator trying to figure out that is Kid Goku could crush a rock at this level, then he should be able to crush a rock 100x bigger when he is 100x stronger.

It's just twisting logic for no reason. People like to make Dragonball complicated but it's really not.


It's never been suggested that someone has wildy different ki than what there strength shows. It's just hogwash IMO.


On the Z sword


Goku > Initial Base Gohan > Kibito


No reason to think that these exhanges of the sword wouldn't mean the simplest of thoughts, it is showing who is weaker/stronger.