Fusion multiplier

[Kaboom]

It comes from the notion that while everyone was certainly impressed with SSj Gotenks' power, there was still lingering uncertainty about whether or not he could defeat Majin Boo. Goku claims he could, but at the same time admitted the whole ordeal was a gamble, has no way to actually predict the outcome with absolute certainty (Having only observed it used by its original weakling inventors and never performed it himself), and was actually straight-up lying when he said that he himself couldn't do the same thing. Super Saiyan Gotenks was never shown to be effective against any form of Majin Boo, having never gotten a chance to face off with the Fat dude, and getting royally spanked by Super Boo. Furthermore, one of his Daizenshuu bios notes that he didn't surpass "Vegeta and the others" until after his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, which for all we know could simply refer to Super Saiyan 3, as the bio was not form-specific.

So to summarize, Gotenks' power is all up in the air, and that's my best guess.

P.S. - Please stop posting links to scanslations.

[petewentz]

It comes from the notion that while everyone was certainly impressed with SSj Gotenks' power, there was still lingering uncertainty about whether or not he could defeat Majin Boo. Goku claims he could, but at the same time admitted the whole ordeal was a gamble, has no way to actually predict the outcome with absolute certainty (Having only observed it used by its original weakling inventors and never performed it himself), and was actually straight-up lying when he said that he himself couldn't do the same thing. Super Saiyan Gotenks was never shown to be effective against any form of Majin Boo, having never gotten a chance to face off with the Fat dude, and getting royally spanked by Super Boo. Furthermore, one of his Daizenshuu bios notes that he didn't surpass "Vegeta and the others" until after his training in the Room of Spirit and Time, which for all we know could simply refer to Super Saiyan 3, as the bio was not form-specific.

So to summarize, Gotenks' power is all up in the air, and that's my best guess.

P.S. - Please stop posting links to scanslations.

Well, considering I can't provide you links to the manga sitting in front of me, a scanlation is the best I can do. SOWWY

And anyway, I agree that the Daizenshuu is a great source of information, but it does contain contradictions to the manga, does it not? In which case where contradictions are inherit, then the manga takes precedence. It's just my humble opinion that the manga makes it pretty clear that Gotenks is comparable in strength to Goku, and that's before he goes ssj3(or ROSAT). After his RoSaT training, based on Piccolo's statement, he gained a huge power boost.

Of course ssj Gotenks isn't gonna have any sort of effect against Super Buu if my theory is correct. I stated that it's my belief that Super Buu is 8x stronger than Fat Buu. If ssj Gotenks is only comparable in power to Fat Buu, then even doubling his strength in the limited time inside the RoSaT would only result in Super Buu being 4x stronger than his ssj counterpart, and based on the ssj multiplier stated in the SEG, it would all match out evenly.

Of course, if you take the Daizenshuu's word as gospel, then I suppose it would be a moot point.

[Kaboom]

Of course, if you take the Daizenshuu's word as gospel, then I suppose it would be a moot point.

I don't. I just take it as clarification on a topic that's muddy and inconclusive without it.

[Herms]

And anyway, I agree that the Daizenshuu is a great source of information, but it does contain contradictions to the manga, does it not? In which case where contradictions are inherit, then the manga takes precedence.

They have some mistakes (as does the actual manga too), but I think some people are overly prone to view anything they say which contradicts their personal interpretation of the manga as contradicting the manga itself.

[petewentz]

They have some mistakes (as does the actual manga too), but I think some people are overly prone to view anything they say which contradicts their personal interpretation of the manga as contradicting the manga itself.

That's a good point. But, given character statements which form the factual basis for the manga, you have a claim made. Then you have the daizenshuu, which serves as a companion to the manga, which contradicts that claim.

That's my general take on it. Take for instance Vegeta's "height" in some of the guide books. He is given an official height, but visually throughout the series he is shown to grow from shorter to taller, despite being fully grown. We know the real world explanation of this(Toriyama)but as for the Daizenshuu, that official height can't be 100% accurate. So to speak.


And like I said, there are clear statements made by reliable characters that says fusion=fat buu=ssj3 Goku. The topic is not muddy or inconclusive because there are direct statements to support the claim.

I ask you this, if Daizenshuu 8 was magically created by Bird staff, and it stated: "Kid Buu is the strongest, most powerful and has the largest ki of any of the Buu forms" would you suddenly take that to mean Kid Buu>Super Buu despite the mountain of evidence(character statements) to contradict that claim?

[jackjack]

SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo = stated, and "Vegeta and the others" could very well include Goku, so they don't really contradict each other.

I want to know if anyone agrees that Super Buu can be 8x stronger than Fat Buu

If one goes by the SEG boosts, then yeah, Super Boo being 8x stronger, easily (though I would replace Fat Boo with Kid Boo).

[Fox666]

SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo = stated

Excuse me?

[petewentz]

SSJ Gotenks > Fat Boo = stated

Excuse me?

Check in the links I provided on the first page. The viz corroborates this...it doesn't make sense for Goku to be referring to their base power when their hypothetical maximum was super saiyan, a form Goku knew both kids go achieve.

[jackjack]

And I believe I've already addressed the "gamble" argument before, but since people keep bringing that up... It's simply a reference to the comment Piccolo makes earlier on the kids having to perfect fusion within two days. Goku makes it pretty obvious, too.

Goku: “With these two, if they just manage to perform Fusion successfully, I think they’ll definitely be able to defeat him within 30 minutes. Fusion is just that extreme.”
Goku: “Don’t worry. If he perfects the technique he’s trying now, he definitely ain’t gonna lose.”

[Fox666]

That is not a "statement". Goku is simply guessing what will happen.

In the same line Goku says Gotenks should be able to do it in 30 minutes, but as far I remember Gotenks was always screwed by this time-limit...

[petewentz]

That is not a "statement". Goku is simply guessing what will happen.

In the same line Goku says Gotenks should be able to do it in 30 minutes, but as far I remember Gotenks was always screwed by this time-limit...

At the time, Goku didn't know Fat Buu could even evolve into Super Buu. Super Buu, as I postulated, is much stronger than Fat Buu. Besides, it's stated that ssj3 shortened the fusion time, anyway.

I don't see your counter argument. Goku isn't "guessing" what will happen, he shows complete certainty. Goku can sense ki, he fought Fat Buu, he is the only one with intimate knowledge of the Fusion Dance. I'm sure he can gauge the boys power, and he can deduce, logically, that their max fused>Fat Buu's.

Simple.

[Kaboom]

Simple, yes. Also unproven, and not necessarily true just because someone said it. Why are characters treated as infallible?

Even if Goku wasn't sure, he wouldn't say, "oh, well, maybe they can beat him." He's trying to give encouragement. Hope. He wanted them to take a shot at saving Earth, for better or worse. And if Gotenks' power really was tremendous enough to defeat Boo, why would Piccolo want to test him, in any capacity, rather than simply sending him off right away? There was still an element of uncertainty for all involved (except Gotenks himself, but he's a moron). Goku predicts that Gotenks will be able to beat Boo, but not only can he not be sure, but he's not around to gauge Gotenks when a successful Fusion actually happens.

Add to the mix the Daizenshuu's comment about him not surpassing "Vegeta and the others" until after the Room of Spirit and Time (which keeps getting ignored, somehow), and there's at least a very solid precedent for Gotenks not living up to his hype at first. AFTER the RoSaT training is a different story, but also anyone's guess as well, because then he couldn't do jack without Super Saiyan 3 or the Kamikaze Ghost Attack. And even THEN it's implied that Boo might have been pulling his punches to stall for time until Gohan arrived. The whole Gotenks

So cool it with all the "SSj Gotenks > Boo, fact!" bologna, because it's not "fact." It's very much debatable and subjective.

[petewentz]

Simple, yes. Also unproven, and not necessarily true just because someone said it. Why are characters treated as infallible?

Even if Goku wasn't sure, he wouldn't say, "oh, well, maybe they can beat him." He's trying to give encouragement. Hope. He wanted them to take a shot at saving Earth, for better or worse. And if Gotenks' power really was tremendous enough to defeat Boo, why would Piccolo want to test him, in any capacity, rather than simply sending him off right away? There was still an element of uncertainty for all involved (except Gotenks himself, but he's a moron)

So cool it with all the "SSj Gotenks > Boo, fact!" bologna, because it's not "fact." It's very much debatable and subjective.

Characters statements are treated as infallible because they form the foundation of the manga. Goku saying Dabra is around Cell's level is not taken as "Goku is trying to SCARE Gohan!" it's taken as a literal, face value statement. When Goku says that Gotenks will be enough, he will be enough. He made the same statement about Gohan against Cell, despite everyone objecting.

I think we come down to a fundamental difference in how we interpret the source material, friend.

If a character makes a statement, such as Goku saying his hair turns red when he turns super saiyan, and it's not contradicted later, then it's a fact of the material. If Goku turns super saiyan, and his hair turns yellow, well then it's an obvious contradiction. If he never is shown to go super saiyan, and then it's implied naturally that his hair would turn red when he does.

That's just my opinion. I take Goku's statements to heart.

And as for the daizenshuu, if it said Kid Buu>Super Buu, would you run with that, despite the evidence presented in the source material?

EDIT

BTW did you ever post on MFG back in the day? I remember your UN from somewhere...

[Kaboom]

Characters statements are treated as infallible because they form the foundation of the manga. Goku saying Dabra is around Cell's level is not taken as "Goku is trying to SCARE Gohan!" it's taken as a literal, face value statement. When Goku says that Gotenks will be enough, he will be enough. He made the same statement about Gohan against Cell, despite everyone objecting.

At the start of the Cell Games, Vegeta claimed he could beat Cell. He never got a chance to fight Cell before he powered up, so he never got his chance to prove himself right or wrong. Should we take Vegeta's word as fact, too?

If a character makes a statement, such as Goku saying his hair turns red when he turns super saiyan, and it's not contradicted later, then it's a fact of the material. If Goku turns super saiyan, and his hair turns yellow, well then it's an obvious contradiction. If he never is shown to go super saiyan, and then it's implied naturally that his hair would turn red when he does.

That's just my opinion. I take Goku's statements to heart.

Right. Except if he never transformed, we have no proof about his hair one way or another. Which is all I'm saying. There's predictions made about Gotenks' power, but they are never fufilled one way or another. Believe whatever you want, but don't harp on others for interpreting it differently, or try to insist that your way is the only way.

And as for the daizenshuu, if it said Kid Buu>Super Buu, would you run with that, despite the evidence presented in the source material?

Honestly? Yeah, probably. It'd take some doing, and be more than a bit of a stretch, but it'd be feasible. You could explain it by proposing things like:

1) Goku was holding back a LOT against Fat Boo, and his full SSj3 power is actually greater than Super Boo's or SSj3 Gotenks', and comparable to Ultimate Gohan.
2) Goku was still unsure of Super Boo's power, and concerned for Vegeta, which is why he insisted they could die if they didn't re-fuse.
3) Goku put up a good fight against Kid Boo, but the little guy was ultimately toying with him and could ONLY be finished off with something like the Spirit Bomb.
4) Ultimate Gohan's power for the Spirit Bomb's power wasn't enough to defeat Kid Boo; it took a lot more.

See? There are very few things that are "impossible." The evidence in the manga as it is points to Super Boo being superior, but if the guidebooks insisted differently, then things could be at least interpreted to go along with it.

EDITBTW did you ever post on MFG back in the day? I remember your UN from somewhere...

Sure did. I was just "Kaboom" back there as well, and often took a lot of flak for going against the group-think.

[Herms]

I ask you this, if Daizenshuu 8 was magically created by Bird staff, and it stated: "Kid Buu is the strongest, most powerful and has the largest ki of any of the Buu forms" would you suddenly take that to mean Kid Buu>Super Buu despite the mountain of evidence(character statements) to contradict that claim?

Well, if by "Bird staff" you mean Bird Studio, then since Bird Studio is essentially just a fancy name for Toriyama and his assistant, I certainly would put a lot of weight on that.

If you mean something put out by Shueisha without necessarily any involvement by Toriyama, then I'd put less weight on that, but they hold the copyright for DB along with Bird Studio and Toei, so I think what they put out should still be considered important.

If there were a "mountain of contradicting evidence"...Well, I guess I have different ideas about what counts as contradicting, or evidence for that matter. Toriyama's said in his Extreme Battle Collection interview that as he kept drawing, the characters' balance of strength would constantly change from what he had decided on beforehand. And I think this shows in the series: there's a lot of stuff that's muddled or contradictory when it comes to character strength. So I think even a lot of individual lines from throughout the series as Toriyama is going along changing his mind about stuff doesn't necessarily outweigh something written after the fact, when they've had time to settle on something. I think the whole area of strength debates is something of a mug's game, because if something isn't blindingly obvious from the series (you don't see many people argue over whether Nappa was stronger than Vegeta), then it's usually bogged down in vagueness and contradiction, and Toriyama himself probably didn't have any real answer in mind. When I think of "contradiction" I think of how Daizenshuu 2's "Growing Up" section mistakenly lists Super Saiyan Vegeta as first appearing in volume 32 when it was actually 29. That's an actual, verifiable error rather than something that goes against fan interpretation of the dialogue from fallible characters in a contradictory story.

[petewentz]

Kaboom and Herms, you've opened my mind up, even if it's ever so slightly. I will say that much.

As for this:

At the start of the Cell Games, Vegeta claimed he could beat Cell. He never got a chance to fight Cell before he powered up, so he never got his chance to prove himself right or wrong. Should we take Vegeta's word as fact, too?

It's not a good example, because correct me if I'm wrong(and I most likely am) doesn't Vegeta comment on how much stronger Goku and Gohan are than him? Besides it being plainly obvious?

But I digress, like I said it comes down to a fundamental difference in how the source material is interpreted. I agree with Herms. I doubt Toriyama was going through saying "Gotenks is this much stronger than X, but weaker than Y until he transforms blah blah blah."

And from what I remember of you, I think you were okay at MFG...I think you had an avatar of Goten or something, right? Or I might be mistaken. Surprised you don't remember me, I'm the only person in the history of DB fandom to use a fallout boy band member for a UN. I took a hiatus from MFG though for a while, and when I came back(after dropping outta college) it was ~GONE~

[jackjack]

That is not a "statement". Goku is simply guessing what will happen.

Thanks for telling me, Mr. Son.

Also unproven, and not necessarily true just because someone said it. Why are characters treated as infallible?

Because what's there to stop people from questioning every single uncontradicted statement? I'm sorry, but your counter arguments have been pretty weak in general.

Even if Goku wasn't sure, he wouldn't say, "oh, well, maybe they can beat him." He's trying to give encouragement. Hope. He wanted them to take a shot at saving Earth, for better or worse.

Please don't speak for Goku. Thank you. I can well very argue that he thought they would definitely win because he was sure and actually knew full well how fusion worked.

And if Gotenks' power really was tremendous enough to defeat Boo, why would Piccolo want to test him, in any capacity, rather than simply sending him off right away?

This has already been addressed in the other thread, so if you're just going to keep bringing this up, I'd also like you to stop ignoring it because it actually matters.

Goku predicts that Gotenks will be able to beat Boo, but not only can he not be sure, but he's not around to gauge Gotenks when a successful Fusion actually happens

It's an accurate prediction, as evidenced by later events that indicate he could easily calculate how powerful a fusion with Vegeta or Gohan would turn out to be, and Piccolo never questioning his statement until Boo transformed.

Add to the mix the Daizenshuu's comment about him not surpassing "Vegeta and the others" until after the Room of Spirit and Time (which keeps getting ignored, somehow)

Oh please. That certainly isn't the case.

and there's at least a very solid precedent for Gotenks not living up to his hype at first.

Nothing, as far as I can see, even comes close to what you would call "solid."

So cool it with all the "SSj Gotenks > Boo, fact!" bologna, because it's not "fact."

In any case, statements and events are still heavily in favor of him being stronger, rather than weaker like you mistakenly think.

It's very much debatable and subjective.

It's a statement like any other, when goes uncontradicted, should be accepted as factual, meaning undeniable, regardless of personal feelings (which you've openly admitted you're being affected by).

At the start of the Cell Games, Vegeta claimed he could beat Cell. He never got a chance to fight Cell before he powered up, so he never got his chance to prove himself right or wrong. Should we take Vegeta's word as fact, too?

Of course we do. In fact, I can easily make a strong case for it, too, as it isn't so much different than Goku's claims of destroying Fat Boo and Kid Boo. (Yet, you seem to be perfectly fine with Goku being way above the former ¬_¬)

[petewentz]

Of course we do. In fact, I can easily make a strong case for it, too, as it isn't so much different than Goku's claim of beating Fat Boo. (Yet, you seem to be perfectly fine with Goku being way above this Boo ¬_¬)

Well, his claim was probably based on what limited knowledge he had of Cell. When he trained the second time in the RoSaT, he probably gained enough power to defeat the heavily suppressed Cell that was last seen kicking his butt. He of course had no idea of Cell's true power, and was thus completely outclassed.

It's a moot point anyway, his statement was contradicted later in the manga, which is the basis for my entire stance on the manga: If a character makes a statement, and it's not contradicted, then it's a fact. Vegeta's statement ~WAS~ contradicted. Goku's was not. Gotenks at super saiyan never fought against Fat Buu, which is the basis for Goku's argument that Gotenks will be enough. He fought Fat Buu, he has intimate knowledge of the fusion dance, and coupled with his statements regarding Gotenks, it's quite clear that he's suggesting super saiyan Gotenks will be enough.

I think it just comes down to a difference in how people view the source material. If you start believing characters are fallible or subject to error without contradictory evidence presented, well then you get into a wide range of interpretations and what not.

When Goku was referencing Dabra's power, was he trying to scare Gohan because Goku is a prankster? Well, then his statement may very well be a lie, etc, etc. I don't believe that. Goku's statement is direct, and it's taken that way. Why aren't his other statements regarded in the same light? Dabra is never seen fighting Cell, so it's not contradicted...the same way Vegeta claims to be able to defeat Dabra, it's generally regarded that he could, right? He makes a statement, that isn't contradicted later. If Dabra transformed, or showed that he was only using a percentage of his power, then yes it would be an error on Vegeta's part, but that's my point, it's later contradicted, which Goku's statement on Gotenks is not.

I go back to my green haired super saiyan analogy. If Goku says that's the effect, and we are never seen super saiyan at all in the series, then it's a fact his hair turns green, but if we later see him go super saiyan, and it's actually yellow, then it's contradicted and he's wrong.

BTW jackjack I agree

[jackjack]

Actually, Vegeta's statement isn't contradicted, either, because it's made prior to Cell's power up, and just like you said he was simply talking about the Cell that whooped his butt. When Goku and Cell power up, he makes it obvious that he's been outclassed, but there's no reason to think he can't even beat a powered down version of Cell considering that fact that he's improved enough to compete nicely with a Cell Junior.

[Fox666]

Because what's there to stop people from questioning every single uncontradicted statement? I'm sorry, but your counter arguments have been pretty weak in general.

Characters are proven to be wrong all time, especially when it comes to power. Now you in a situation where a character is guessing how strong someone who still don't exist (or never will exist) at all.