Fusion multiplier

[p123]

Isn't it supposed to be a 10x boost in some guide somewhere?

I use a 4x boost for SSJ2 now because of overwhelming evidence...

1) 2x boost means that Cell's power up was not massive, like suggested, his zenkai wasn't huge like suggested, and that injured Gohan, is actually weaker than MSSJ Gohan. Which is all just a big meh....


2) Gohan implies...


SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku > SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Initial Fat Buu > SSJ Gohan KHH >> SSJ Gohan



With this chain, a 2x boost really has little to no weight. You know what I mean? There's no basis for 2x really. I think they messed up here...

[Kaboom]

Isn't it supposed to be a 10x boost in some guide somewhere?

Toriyama noted that he pictured something more like 10x normal when he wrote the manga, even though it ended up at 50x instead. I couldn't find the direct quote, but here's the Kanzentai blurb about it from the Battle Power Guide:

Also in the Super Exciting Guide: Story Volume, Toriyama revealed in an interview that he thought a multiplier of 50 was rather large, and that he had originally drawn it with the sense of being a 10-fold increase in what Goku had been "up until then". It's unclear how this would put Super Saiyan in relation to Goku's regular use of Kaio-ken x10 to gain a 10-fold increase in power, and the "up until then" bit muddies things further. Since Goku had already multiplied his power 10 and 20 times with the Kaio-ken as he fought Freeza, did Toriyama mean that he thought of Super Saiyan as being 10 times stronger than that, meaning it would make Goku overall 100 or 200 times stronger than he normally was? If so, it's hard to make sense of Toriyama saying that a 50-fold increase is too large. But if Toriyama meant that it only made Goku 10 times stronger than he was without using Kaio-ken, then Super Saiyan Goku is only half as strong as he was when using the Kaio-ken x20, at which point he was unable to significantly harm Freeza. Perhaps the answer is that Toriyama is being his usual forgetful self, since he himself admits in the same interview to have forgotten much of DragonBall's story himself, and that we shouldn't take these numbers he throws out too seriously.

Note that Toriyama isn't trying to say, "it's actually 10x! Don't believe the lie that's printed in this book!" He's just being his usual laid-back self with an attitude of saying, "oh well, that's how it goes." I mean honestly, they wouldn't print in plain language "Super Saiyan is 50x the normal battle power" in that very same book if the author himself was actually disagreeing with or denying it.

1) 2x boost means that Cell's power up was not massive, like suggested, his zenkai wasn't huge like suggested, and that injured Gohan, is actually weaker than MSSJ Gohan. Which is all just a big meh....

Which just means that Gohan managed to bring out more than he thought he could, and eventually all of it. Furthermore, he was actually losing and being pushed back right from the start (in the manga, anyway), which fits with his Ki being significantly less than Cell's. So, no actual problem here.

2) Gohan implies...
SSJ2 Majin Vegeta/Goku > SSJ2 Teen Gohan > Initial Fat Buu > SSJ Gohan KHH >> SSJ Gohan

SSj2 Goku and Vegeta: 2000
SSj2 Gohan: 1800
Initial Fat Boo: 1000-1500
Super Saiyan Gohan: 900

There is no pre-determined power boost for Ki attacks, so however strong Gohan's Kamehame-Ha may have been is inconsequential.

So, once again, no actual problem here.

With this chain, a 2x boost really has little to no weight. You know what I mean? There's no basis for 2x really. I think they messed up here...

It works, it's official, and there's nothing to say it's incorrect. So, yet again, no problem here.

[p123]

That's not a bad counter Kaboom. I think those who view the

Goku 910
~ KHH 924

Side of things, probably would like that POV.. Honestly, with some of the logic with the ki blasts, it might make more sense to do it that way...


I'm trying out working on this 50x boost stuff right now, with the SSJ Kids Pre >> Piccolo >> Base Kids Post, type of logic. And I think that the logic that Goten/Trunks aren't all that far off from Gohan, would put the Base Saiyans > Piccolo thing to rest.

I think Base Saiyans > 18, is still optimal here though...

[Fox666]

Can someone explain to me where the impression that any of the Saiyans even came close to matching SSJ in their base form comes from? I'm probably not nearly as familiar with the series as you folks, but based on my limited exposure to it (the anime and non-consecutive manga issues) I never really got the impression that even Goku improved too much from his Namek-era battle power while in his base form.

It's because of what Babidi and Dabura said about Goku & Co. when they followed Yamu and Spopovitch

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.4
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Babidi: “Get rid of the trash besides those 3 [Goku, Gohan, Vegeta], then return to the spaceship right away. That way, I think those 3 will fly into a rage and follow you inside for sure.”

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Of course you will notice that they also mentioned that they will revive Majin Boo with the energy of the three of them. Still Gohan's energy as a Super Super 2 could only fill less than half of it. So there is something wrong going over there.

I suppose the only correct way to explain it is that energy is difference of power. They also mentioned that Kaioshin and Kibito energies don't serve, afterall

[Fox666]

Isn't it supposed to be a 10x boost in some guide somewhere?

No. Toriyama notes in a interview that his "feeling" was that Goku increased his power by 10 times. However this is very different of saying that it was a 10 times multiplier.

In the same interview, Toriyama notes that it was estabilished as a 50 times multiplier.

Cell's power up was not massive, like suggested, his zenkai wasn't huge like suggested

Numbers were never mentioned, you can't call this "evidence" of anything.

Besides, Cell near-death power-up was explicity created so that Cell would match Gohan's power.

and that injured Gohan, is actually weaker than MSSJ Gohan. Which is all just a big meh....

What? Cell lost because because Vegeta distracted him. You can't measure it numerically.

[CatouttaHell]

Personally I use a 5x multiplier because it makes Base Gohan > Piccolo possible without making Piccolo unrealistically weak and without REALLY bloating the fuck out of your levels (like having 50% SSjin Goku 10 times stronger than USSjin 2 Trunks.) Also it makes things like Goten and Trunks surpassing their SSjin forms in their Base forms and Base Goku > SSjin Gohan make sense, at least to me. I'm not saying I'm "right" as obviously unless Toriyama comes out with some official power levels beyond the Freeza Arc, there are no correct power levels for the Cell and Boo Arcs, but this is just my view on the SSjin multiplier, etc for the Boo Arc.

[Nineteen]

A 10x boost for SSJ1 makes little sense in light of the battle with Freeza - it would mean that pre-SSJ Goku with Kaioken Times-Twenty active, who was barely even with 50% Freeza, was stronger than he was as a SSJ who could beat up on 100% Freeza. Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I see no reason to assume that Goku's SSJ transformation got weaker as the series progressed: accepting that would mean that Freeza wasn't far off from Cell in terms of power.

[Fox666]

The Daizenshuu stated the battle powers for Goku and Freeza during their fight. The Super Exciting Guide states that the Super Saiyan multiply the power by 50 times. In a Interview Toriyama also mentions it is a 50 times multiplier.

Even if you ignore all that, it's not like that number was taken out of nowhere. Goku more-or-less matched 50% of Freeza power with the Kaio-ken x20, so it's relatively simply to see from where the number 50 comes. And you might also consider Toriyama's habit of using rounded numbers (i.e. Oozaru that increases the power by 10 times).

There is no basis for any other value. p123 says it is 5, someone else that it is 10, and I say it is a 3.14159 multiplier. Especially if you are creating the value only to assist in the creation of fan-made battle power lists.

Besides all that, I don't really see a good reason to assume that Goku in his normal state surpassed his power when he first became a Super Saiyan. They always turn Super Saiyan right after the beggining of the fight (even Vegetto) against strong opponents.

[TobyS]

How can SSJ be EVER less then 50x

Otherwise the Kaioken would be better.

If Freeza was about twice as strong as 20x Goku, he would have to go 50x to beat a even stronger Freeza.

And if we use "diminishing multipliers" like 'it's only 5x now'

Wouldn't Goku say "wow supersaiyan sucks now, back to kaio-ken I guess!".

I don't know how people get round this obvious fact.

As long as you don't believe Piccolo was weaker then base saiyans you don't have a problem in the first place re: buu saga.

Qouting Dabras readings makes no sense as he clearly is full of shit later, thinking he can beat SSJ vegeta, Babidi being suprised at vegetas win over level 1. Supreme Kai being afraid of level 1&2 but having an olay showing against fat buu.

Basically just remember Babidi, Dabra and Supreme Kai all suck really hard and you don't have a problem.

[TobyS]

It has to be more then 20x initially, it has to be better then oozaru and kaioken later. So it cannot really go as low as most of you want it to.

[VegettoEX]

You can edit your post -- there's no need to double-up on the postings. Also, can we do a little more in the way of complete sentences and such? That'd be great . Thanks!

(Your signature also goes beyond the four-line rule... but the other stuff is more important...)

[TobyS]

You can edit your post -- there's no need to double-up on the postings. Also, can we do a little more in the way of complete sentences and such? That'd be great . Thanks!

(Your signature also goes beyond the four-line rule... but the other stuff is more important...)

Hello.

Sorry I will do my best from now on.

I am dyspraxic, not using that as an excuse just an explanation, the main symptom is jumbled thought processes, (which leads to a lack of fine motorskills but this is not the main symptom as many assume) I find it incredibly difficult to articulate my thoughts and write it linear sentences.

I talk like this in real life to which drives people nuts.

I also get all OCD and anxious that someone will post something which renders the post I am making obselete, and that I have to get the post out asap before then.

I apologise I never noticed/forgot the 4 line sig rule, I will change that ASAP.

I'll also keep an eye on the editing thing from now on.

[VegettoEX]

No big worries! We're awfully forgiving about that kinda stuff. It only becomes an issue when someone clearly knows better and simply makes no effort. Have fun!

[Fox666]

It has to be more then 20x initially, it has to be better then oozaru and kaioken later. So it cannot really go as low as most of you want it to.

That's a good argument.

Besides, the training to achieve full-power Super Saiyan, if it changes anything, logically should INCREASE the multiplier, don't?

As long as you don't believe Piccolo was weaker then base saiyans you don't have a problem in the first place re: buu saga.

And even if you believe that they are stronger than Piccolo, that doesn't mean that the multiplier should be lower just because you want to be "modest" in terms of battle powers.

There isn't an official source that deny Goku as a Super Saiyan having 100 billions in the Boo saga. You can't deny something just because your battle power list won't look cute.

[Piccolo Daimao]

It has to be more then 20x initially, it has to be better then oozaru and kaioken later. So it cannot really go as low as most of you want it to.

That's a good argument.

Besides, the training to achieve full-power Super Saiyan, if it changes anything, logically should INCREASE the multiplier, don't?

How does that make sense? Goku and Gohan trained to master Super Saiyan so it would negate its stress and whatnot, and then just trained to gain more power on top of that. Why would it increase the multiplier? Full-Power Super Saiyan is still just regular Super Saiyan. Why does everyone keep trying to make it FPSSj to be as if it's a seperate form to SSj when it's basically the same, just mastered? Is it to fit in with your battle power lists or something? Because if that's so, you're ignoring the story.

[Nazi Cola]

I think it's because they want Full-Power Super Saiyan to be stronger than Super Saiyan Grades 2 and/or 3, because Goku went with the former instead of the latter. But the way I saw it, Goku clearly explained why he did that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

I think it's because they want Full-Power Super Saiyan to be stronger than Super Saiyan Grades 2 and/or 3, because Goku went with the former instead of the latter. But the way I saw it, Goku clearly explained why he did that.

Well, anyone can figure out that Goku chose to master and use SSj rather than the SSj Grades because it didn't waste energy and slow you down.

[Fox666]

It has to be more then 20x initially, it has to be better then oozaru and kaioken later. So it cannot really go as low as most of you want it to.

That's a good argument.

Besides, the training to achieve full-power Super Saiyan, if it changes anything, logically should INCREASE the multiplier, don't?

How does that make sense? Goku and Gohan trained to master Super Saiyan so it would negate its stress and whatnot, and then just trained to gain more power on top of that. Why would it increase the multiplier? Full-Power Super Saiyan is still just regular Super Saiyan. Why does everyone keep trying to make it FPSSj to be as if it's a seperate form to SSj when it's basically the same, just mastered? Is it to fit in with your battle power lists or something? Because if that's so, you're ignoring the story.

I don't think it changes anything, if you ask me.

But if it did, it would be a greater multiplier as the other levels of Super Saiyan. That's all I am saying.

[Nazi Cola]

I think it's because they want Full-Power Super Saiyan to be stronger than Super Saiyan Grades 2 and/or 3, because Goku went with the former instead of the latter. But the way I saw it, Goku clearly explained why he did that.

Well, anyone can figure out that Goku chose to master and use SSj rather than the SSj Grades because it didn't waste energy and slow you down.

But they don't want to accept it because why use a weaker form if you can use a stronger form and potentially win without even having to worry about the drain.

[p123]

One can consider this...


SSJ Kids Pre Rosat > Piccolo > Base Kids Post > Base Kids Pre

Yet, Gotenks has Base Gotenks Post > SSJ Gotenks Pre


It seems quite apparent that fusion transformations work differently. Also, Goten is not suggested to be all that far off from Gohan, and still Post Rosat, he's still weaker than Piccolo. So one can perhaps say Picclo > Base Teen Gohan...