Funimation subtitle names

[Cipher]

That's a good point, I used to think that was her name. What exactly does Baba mean though? While Artificial Humans is more correct for what they actually are, I've read that Android is a more accurate definition for Jinzoningen (but I'm not sure where I read it). Plus, Android rolls off the tongue much more well.

"Android" is almost certainly the more accurate analogue to "Jinzouningen." "Jinzouningen" literally means "man-made human" and is nearly always translated to "android." The Japanese generally use the English word "cyborg" when they're talking about cyborgs, from my understanding. Trunks does so when he's first talking about 17 and 18 to Goku, although he later uses "jinzouningen" freely.

Bottom line, "android" is the most accurate translation, and Dragon Ball doesn't really seem to care about specifying between androids and cyborgs anyway. The English names "Android 17" and "Android 18" can be spotted on multiple Japanese products as well.

The only basis anyone seems to have for not using "android" is that some of Dr. Gero's creations are technically cyborgs. But the series' creators don't seem to care, and to be honest, "Artificial Human" isn't an accurate description of what they are either. "Artificial" implies "man-made," which they're certainly not. Why use a cumbersome phrase when it avoids the most obvious translation and is no more accurate?

[Herms]

The crux of the jinzou-ningen/android/artificial human/whatever debacle is that jinzou-ningen is an inaccurate thing to call 17 and 18 even in Japanese, in more or less the same way "android" is in English. According to Japanese Wikipedia at least, kaizou-ningen would more accurately describe them, but that's not what they're actually called. So do you accurately translate an inaccurate description, or change it to something that accurately describes them, like cyborg?

"Fortuneteller Baba" is one of those times where they arbitrarily translate only half the name (baba=old woman/granny/hag). So either "Uranai Baba" or something like "Fortunetelling Hag" would be more accurate, or at least more consistent. Though I think in her case "divination" would be a better translation for uranai than "fortunetelling"; uranai can be translated either way, but "divination" refers to (among other things) locating objects through mystical means, which is her main role in the story.

[Cipher]

The crux of the jinzou-ningen/android/artificial human/whatever debacle is that jinzou-ningen is an inaccurate thing to call 17 and 18 even in Japanese, in more or less the same way "android" is in English. According to Japanese Wikipedia at least, kaizou-ningen would more accurately describe them, but that's not what they're actually called. So do you accurately translate an inaccurate description, or change it to something that accurately describes them, like cyborg?

The problem is that Simmons' choice of "Artificial Human" does neither. An accurate translation would be "Android." An accurate description would be "Cyborg."

"Artificial Human" is a cumbersome transliteration that really could, and should, be avoided for one of the other options.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

My grievance with "Artifical Human" is that it's a bit too verbatim. To use a somewhat well known Japanese word, it's analogous to translating Megami as "Female God". It's by no means incorrect, but there exists a more succinct translation: "Goddess".


In all cases, I use "Android". It's a nice, comprehensive term (as opposed to "Cyborg" or even "Gynoid"). Some fanboys' reluctance to embrace it may have something to do with FUNimation, methinks. At any rate, it's revealed which automata were once Homo sapiens. So if you've actually watched/read the series, you won't be at all perplexed and you'll know which descriptors are more apt than others.


Apologies if that came off as rant-ish.

[Puto]

Well, in one of Toei's official DBGT English title card translations, I saw "Artificial Human Being". That's kinda even more literal and verbose than Simmons' translation.

[GamingBuddha]

This discussion has me convinced on Android but I haven't seen it used at all. All I've seen is Cyborg in DB and Artificial Human in Z. Also, thanks for the Baba explanation.

[Piccolo Daimao]

"Fortuneteller Baba" is one of those times where they arbitrarily translate only half the name (baba=old woman/granny/hag). So either "Uranai Baba" or something like "Fortunetelling Hag" would be more accurate, or at least more consistent. Though I think in her case "divination" would be a better translation for uranai than "fortunetelling"; uranai can be translated either way, but "divination" refers to (among other things) locating objects through mystical means, which is her main role in the story.

So, the "Divination Crone"? I don't know whether that rolls off the tongue quite as nicely as "Fortuneteller Crone", although that could be because I'm so used to it.

[Mosaic]

In all cases, I use "Android". It's a nice, comprehensive term (as opposed to "Cyborg" or even "Gynoid"). Some fanboys' reluctance to embrace it may have something to do with FUNimation, methinks. At any rate, it's revealed which automata were once Homo sapiens. So if you've actually watched/read the series, you won't be at all perplexed and you'll know which descriptors are more apt than others.

I think 'artificial human' works better than cyborg or android because it's... more.. uh, vague? I don't know how to explain it. For me the term 'artificial human' works well to describe all of Dr. Gero's creations. They're not all cyborgs, and they're not all machines.

[Cipher]

I think 'artificial human' works better than cyborg or android because it's... more.. uh, vague? I don't know how to explain it. For me the term 'artificial human' works well to describe all of Dr. Gero's creations. They're not all cyborgs, and they're not all machines.

They're not all "artificial" either. It's not really more vague; it's just more verbose and awkward.

[obiwan23s]

My opinion on translating, at least for anime or manga or anything that involves translation of dialogue, is that you should not try too hard to produce a 1:1 depiction of what's being said in your target language (in this case English) but rather to produce a translation that will depict how an accurate translation of that same material would sound if being spoken by a native English-speaking person. I've always allowed room for colloquialism at the cost of 100% accuracy (which is exactly what translating jinzou-ningen as "Android" is) in my translations. Literal Japanese at times sounds very forced and reads like archaic speech, so you need to do this a little bit to make your script read like dialouge and not a translation.

Maybe you're looking for a 100% proper translation in your subtitles. It all boils down to personal preference. When I translated I would use western conventions like using a character's given name when referred to as "Onii-chan" by his sister, etc. Because in English it's far more common to refer to your brother using his name rather than his relation to you (and if anyone refers to their brother using the term "Brother," I haven't met them). It's things like this that absolutely drive me insane about fan translations, which is why if I want to watch a show with subtitles I tend to wait for the DVD.
A more vocal fan watching one of my subtitled movies came to me and questioned my ability to even translate Japanese because I had used that characters name instead of "Brother" or even leaving "Onii-chan" in the script untranslated. These types irritate me, because they are so ingrained with the beleif that certain words have to be a certain way or are wrong. I'd also get a lot of flak for not always translating hai as "yes" because "yes" isn't always a proper reply to the other speaker. I'd use other affirmatives like "right" or "okay" which aren't 100% accurate (more like 95% but who's keeping track) yet make the dialogue seem more natural.

Dragon Ball is a little different than the more modern stuff. Certain characters change their entire tone of speech depending on who they are talking to, there are homages to other works, a decent amount of puns, and so forth. It would be really hard to give Dragon Ball a more colloquial sounding subtitle script and I wouldn't want to put in the work myself doing it. I may not agree with how Simmons handles things in his script but I respect the accuracy of his work and accept that he has done a really decent job with it given all of the challenges presented by Toriyama's dialogue. Seems like I'm always doing my own translations in my head while reading someone else's subtitles, I'm probably just a crazy, Japanese-speaking bastard.

tl/dr; Both "Android" and "Aritificial Human" are correct, it just depends on what you want out of your subtitle script.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I think 'artificial human' works better than cyborg or android because it's... more.. uh, vague? I don't know how to explain it. For me the term 'artificial human' works well to describe all of Dr. Gero's creations. They're not all cyborgs, and they're not all machines.

They're not all "artificial" either. It's not really more vague; it's just more verbose and awkward.

"Human" is a term used very loosely in Dragon Ball as well, Herms has made multiple posts about how many species outside of the Earthlings are called ningen/humans. So "Artificial Human" seems to be more than an accurate description to me, better than translating Jinzoningen as Android, especially by Dragon Ball standards. None of them are normal humans and all have at least some sort of inorganic enhancements. Adding these elements to them that they did not naturally have covers the man made factor, as we don't know how extensive the changes to models like 8, 17, or 18 are. They are able to withstand hits that would obliterate normal people, deflect bullets without paying attention, and the latter have some sort of inorganic ki network within their body, ect.

The the "Artificial Humans" can clearly be divided into sub classes for clarification, I admit that. Androids, Cyborgs, Robots, and whatever Cell technically is...a bio-mechanical genetic experiment I guess, all the models can fit under the Artificial Human grouping, but not the other way around. The Daizenshuu also use the term to describe more than just Gero's creations, it is also used for Uiro/Kochin's warriors as well. Dragon Ball seems to go by the rule "If it is humanoid and isn't purely organic, then it is an Artificial Human". So if "Human" can be stretched to cover things that don't look all that human, why is it such a stretch for the "Artificial" part to cover the Red Ribbon Army's cyborg models?

[Puto]

Doesn't change the fact that the word that's being used in Japanese, jinzōningen, has the same meaning as the English word android. If you're going to complain that "android" is inaccurate, then just remember that jinzōningen is just as inaccurate. By translating jinzōningen as android, you are, in fact, getting through the same experience as a native Japanese speaker would get, which is what a translation is supposed to do. Getting back to an argument that penguintruth used a lot during his rants on FUNimation, "it's not the translator's job to improve the show." The original show used a word that isn't entirely accurate to describe Dr. Gero's creations, and it's not the translator's job to "fix" that. Trying to find "workarounds" like "Artificial Human" to refer to them in a more "accurate to what they are" way is, in fact, trying to "fix" the show. Android is just as equally inaccurate as the Japanese word that Toriyama opted to use, jinzōningen, ergo, that is what I consider the preferred translation.

Rant over. Feel free to continue.

EDIT: Short version -

• Android is a 100% equivalent to Jinzōningen.
• Cyborg is a 100% equivalent to Kaizōningen (this word is never in fact used in the series, but just listing as a reference).
• Artificial Human is a split of Jinzōningen into two words, Jinzō (Man-Made) and Ningen (Human) then translating them separately and out of context. The only reason people even consider this is that Simmons likes being overly literal in his subtitles. This is seen in other places, too, such as Instantaneous Movement being used for Shunkan-Idō other than the more obvious Teleportation (Shunkan-Idō is, in fact, the term used in Japan for teleportation, along with the katakana form of the English word, テレポーテーション/terepōtēshon).

[Mosaic]

If Toriyama wanted it to be "android" why not just use アンドロイド? If he wanted it to be "cyborg", why not use "サイボーグ"? I think he was trying to make it more vague by using "jinzōningen".

[Puto]

...Because why the hell would he use an English word in a Japanese manga? No, seriously? It's in Japanese. It's logical that he would use a Japanese word. Yeah, sometimes people use English loanwords in Japanese works, but I don't think "andoroido" is in common usage in Japan... at least I certainly never saw it.

[linkdude20002001]

If Toriyama wanted it to be "android" why not just use アンドロイド? If he wanted it to be "cyborg", why not use "サイボーグ"? I think he was trying to make it more vague by using "jinzōningen".

That's like saying "If Toriyama wanted it to be "milk" why not just use ミルク (miruku)? I think he was trying to make it more vague by using 牛乳 (gyūnyū)."

[Puto]

Indeed. Linkdude proved my point exactly. How does using a Japanese word instead of the direct English equivalent make anything "more vague"? Gimme a break. That's like saying using "Kami" is more vague than using "God", and that if Toriyama had meant for the green Namekian watching the Earth to be "God", he would have written ゴッド/goddo. (And before anyone seriously starts claiming this as true, I am merely providing an absurd example. Because I know that there will be people unfortunately trying to claim that Toriyama did indeed not mean for the green dude to be God.)

[Cipher]

So if "Human" can be stretched to cover things that don't look all that human, why is it such a stretch for the "Artificial" part to cover the Red Ribbon Army's cyborg models?

Because, again, it makes things more cumbersome without reason.

If "human" can be stretched to cover things that don't look all that human, why is it such a stretch for "android" to cover things that aren't technically androids? No matter how you slice it, "android" is the more accurate (to the original version) choice, and Puto and linkdude have done a great job explaining why.

On the same note, my other big misgiving with FUNimation's subtitles is indeed using "Kami" over "God."

[GamingBuddha]

On the same note, my other big misgiving with FUNimation's subtitles is indeed using "Kami" over "God."

Did they ever change that in Dragon Ball Kai? I haven't seen much of it, but I would assume that Funimation would be switching out Kami with God since they did that for One Piece.

[obiwan23s]

...Because why the hell would he use an English word in a Japanese manga? No, seriously? It's in Japanese. It's logical that he would use a Japanese word. Yeah, sometimes people use English loanwords in Japanese works, but I don't think "andoroido" is in common usage in Japan... at least I certainly never saw it.

Japanese culture has an extreme fetish for English words. They use them all the time, not just in anime and manga, and sometimes the use is misspelled or incorrect. I'm sure you've heard of "Engrish," right? That's what it is. It wouldn't have been strange in the slightest if he had used the words Android or Cyborg rendered in katakana in his manga.

[Herms]

It wouldn't have been strange in the slightest if he had used the words Android or Cyborg rendered in katakana in his manga.

Trunks does call No.19 and 20 サイボーグ once when telling Goku about them (which is basically accurate for 20, but not 19). And Tao Pai Pai calls himself that too. 17 and 18 never get called that in the original though.

Did they ever change that in Dragon Ball Kai? I haven't seen much of it, but I would assume that Funimation would be switching out Kami with God since they did that for One Piece.

While it's been a long time since I read the Skypia story arc in One Piece, I know they use the English word "God" even in Japanese at least some of the time, so that probably contributed to it.